This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little?
I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build.
Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either.
I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though
And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective.
What's better, losing a mule or losing a game?
Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all.
Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing.
Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much.
I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing.
Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind.
1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark.
Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions...
No, they don't "insta gib", but how far into the natural are you poking? I would like to face the zergs you're facing that make a habit of placing their main tech in front of their 3 or more queens (which are spreading creep and pushing back the hellions unopposed)
At 7:00 most queens except injectors are out spreading creep. your not there to check tech your there to check gas + drone count.
Pushing back hellions? sacrifice a bit of hp for some info, good trade.
On June 28 2012 00:41 MeriaDoKk wrote: that taeja vs violet game was so painfull to watch, it really made the balance shine
Yea, what Zerg players dont seem to understand, is the hellion opening Terrans were doing, was based around a more macro oriented game.. Now without the ability to slow down the zerg economy so Terran can be somewhat even going into mid and late game, it is stupied to try playing an economical game, and I think I am, personally, just going to marine marauder hellion 20 scv all in every game from now on. There is no reason to try playing a macro game in any match up except TvT.. You either win fast, or GG out..
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little?
I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build.
Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either.
I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though
And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective.
What's better, losing a mule or losing a game?
Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all.
Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing.
Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much.
I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing.
Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind.
1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark.
Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions...
No, they don't "insta gib", but how far into the natural are you poking? I would like to face the zergs you're facing that make a habit of placing their main tech in front of their 3 or more queens (which are spreading creep and pushing back the hellions unopposed)
he is talking about suiciding your hellions ((i personally dont like just throwing away units))
Suiciding? so poking into 3rd and natural kills all your hellions? That is only true if he has 4 queens + stoping you from going by. Guess what more than 3 queens, that means he isnt all-ining or not efficiently. IE easy to stop with any 1 rax cc into double gas hellion (banshee or maurader follow up, eZ pZ)
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
Just try and seeker missle the mineral in a game of 4v4 or something. It TERRIBLE because the AOE on seeker missle isnt that great and it cost 125 energy. That take a long time to reach. Usually when you seeker missle, it only kills about 4-5 drone which is patheic factoring in the risk and cost of the raven. People tried Seeker missle in beta and early sc2 release on the mineral and it was soooo bad which is why turrets were better because you can shut down the mineral line way longer and turrets got decent DPS. Basically, the reason why terran dont seeker missle mineral line is pretty much the same reason Protoss dont do storm drop and dont forget.....storm only cost 75 energy compare to 125 energy and can be potentiall cast twice and HT are already a standard unit! The day you see protoss Storm drop, is the day you will MAYBE just maybe....see someone try to seeker missle the mineral line.
Getting a raven early require to much tech and with to little gain. Require so much gas to get them and they cost ton of more gas to make. Those gas could of been spent on earlyer upgrades for timing attacks or medivac for that timing attack. Once their out, you gotta wait for them to have energy and then they need their upgrade for Seeker missle too.....ugh it just bad. There isnt really any timing that is good to get raven except really late but by then it might already be to late.
On June 28 2012 00:41 MeriaDoKk wrote: that taeja vs violet game was so painfull to watch, it really made the balance shine
Yea, what Zerg players dont seem to understand, is the hellion opening Terrans were doing, was based around a more macro oriented game.. Now without the ability to slow down the zerg economy so Terran can be somewhat even going into mid and late game, it is stupied to try playing an economical game, and I think I am, personally, just going to marine marauder hellion 20 scv all in every game from now on. There is no reason to try playing a macro game in any match up except TvT.. You either win fast, or GG out..
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little?
I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build.
Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either.
I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though
And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective.
What's better, losing a mule or losing a game?
Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all.
Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing.
Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much.
I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing.
Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind.
1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark.
Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions...
No, they don't "insta gib", but how far into the natural are you poking? I would like to face the zergs you're facing that make a habit of placing their main tech in front of their 3 or more queens (which are spreading creep and pushing back the hellions unopposed)
he is talking about suiciding your hellions ((i personally dont like just throwing away units))
And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective.
What's better, losing a mule or losing a game?
Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all.
Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing.
Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much.
I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing.
Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind.
1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark.
Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions...
No, they don't "insta gib", but how far into the natural are you poking? I would like to face the zergs you're facing that make a habit of placing their main tech in front of their 3 or more queens (which are spreading creep and pushing back the hellions unopposed)
he is talking about suiciding your hellions ((i personally dont like just throwing away units))
Aparently Diamond level players do
Suiciding? so poking into 3rd and natural kills all your hellions? That is only true if he has 4 queens + stoping you from going by. Guess what more than 3 queens, that means he isnt all-ining or not efficiently. IE easy to stop with any 1 rax cc into double gas hellion (banshee or maurader follow up, eZ pZ)
Here i can respond to you too
Guess Higher than diamond players tend ot have gotten there without knowing timing or gas count or drone count. No wonder this thread is so full of QQ
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
Just try and seeker missle the mineral in a game of 4v4 or something. It TERRIBLE because the AOE on seeker missle isnt that great and it cost 125 energy. That take a long time to reach. Usually when you seeker missle, it only kills about 4-5 drone which is patheic factoring in the risk and cost of the raven. People tried Seeker missle in beta and early sc2 release on the mineral and it was soooo bad which is why turrets were better because you can shut down the mineral line way longer and turrets got decent DPS. Basically, the reason why terran dont seeker missle mineral line is pretty much the same reason Protoss dont do storm drop and dont forget.....storm only cost 75 energy compare to 125 energy and can be potentiall cast twice and HT are already a standard unit! The day you see protoss Storm drop, is the day you will MAYBE just maybe....see someone try to seeker missle the mineral line.
Getting a raven early require to much tech and with to little gain. Require so much gas to get them and they cost ton of more gas to make. Those gas could of been spent on earlyer upgrades for timing attacks or medivac for that timing attack. Once their out, you gotta wait for them to have energy and then they need their upgrade for Seeker missle too.....ugh it just bad. There isnt really any timing that is good to get raven except really late but by then it might already be to late.
Um...Protoss do Storm drops all the time so idk why you would mention that since it weakens your argument. I understand why you're saying Seeker missile sucks and I agree it could use some buffing...but c'mon, good Toss players Storm drop pretty frequently.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
Just try and seeker missle the mineral in a game of 4v4 or something. It TERRIBLE because the AOE on seeker missle isnt that great and it cost 125 energy. That take a long time to reach. Usually when you seeker missle, it only kills about 4-5 drone which is patheic factoring in the risk and cost of the raven. People tried Seeker missle in beta and early sc2 release on the mineral and it was soooo bad which is why turrets were better because you can shut down the mineral line way longer and turrets got decent DPS. Basically, the reason why terran dont seeker missle mineral line is pretty much the same reason Protoss dont do storm drop and dont forget.....storm only cost 75 energy compare to 125 energy and can be potentiall cast twice and HT are already a standard unit! The day you see protoss Storm drop, is the day you will MAYBE just maybe....see someone try to seeker missle the mineral line.
Getting a raven early require to much tech and with to little gain. Require so much gas to get them and they cost ton of more gas to make. Those gas could of been spent on earlyer upgrades for timing attacks or medivac for that timing attack. Once their out, you gotta wait for them to have energy and then they need their upgrade for Seeker missle too.....ugh it just bad. There isnt really any timing that is good to get raven except really late but by then it might already be to late.
Um...Protoss do Storm drops all the time so idk why you would mention that since it weakens your argument. I understand why you're saying Seeker missile sucks and I agree it could use some buffing...but c'mon, good Toss players Storm drop pretty frequently.
As a Toss player, I don't think anyone Storm drops "frequently" unless they have a massive bank and it's extremely lategame against Z.
On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote: Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science.
This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after.
What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem?
Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
In the end it's more effective to make a Marine+CS with Ghost push. The main problem is Ghost just costs too many minerals early game and is not effective as early game defense. Plus if the Zerg is not doing the 6-Queen build you essentially got those Ghosts out for nothing.
Well first of all that's replays of a Platinum player, give me a high Masters player attempting this repeatedly or I'm not going to take this seriously.
Yeesh, now I see Terrans saying "omg costs too much mineral" and "omg costs too much gas!" It's pretty damn amazing you guys build anything beyond Marines.
So like I said, give me a high masters Terran who has tried this at least 20 times vs Zerg before you say it isn't viable. Making new strats work isn't just "oh I tried it once and raped everything yaaaay!" No, it takes loss after loss after loss till you figure out the inner workings of how to make shit happen, THAT my friends is how innovation occurs. You don't just try it once, lose and then give up.
Well I seriously doubt a Masters player is gonna find a different outcome behind this attempt for an early Hellion/Ghost push. In fact, there's plenty of Master players here saying the same thing.
No one is saying "It costs too much minerals" for the sake of saying it. They're saying it costs too many minerals because it costs too many minerals.
I'd personally like to see you try the build out for yourself if you're so confident that it'll work.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
Just try and seeker missle the mineral in a game of 4v4 or something. It TERRIBLE because the AOE on seeker missle isnt that great and it cost 125 energy. That take a long time to reach. Usually when you seeker missle, it only kills about 4-5 drone which is patheic factoring in the risk and cost of the raven. People tried Seeker missle in beta and early sc2 release on the mineral and it was soooo bad which is why turrets were better because you can shut down the mineral line way longer and turrets got decent DPS. Basically, the reason why terran dont seeker missle mineral line is pretty much the same reason Protoss dont do storm drop and dont forget.....storm only cost 75 energy compare to 125 energy and can be potentiall cast twice and HT are already a standard unit! The day you see protoss Storm drop, is the day you will MAYBE just maybe....see someone try to seeker missle the mineral line.
Getting a raven early require to much tech and with to little gain. Require so much gas to get them and they cost ton of more gas to make. Those gas could of been spent on earlyer upgrades for timing attacks or medivac for that timing attack. Once their out, you gotta wait for them to have energy and then they need their upgrade for Seeker missle too.....ugh it just bad. There isnt really any timing that is good to get raven except really late but by then it might already be to late.
Um...Protoss do Storm drops all the time so idk why you would mention that since it weakens your argument. I understand why you're saying Seeker missile sucks and I agree it could use some buffing...but c'mon, good Toss players Storm drop pretty frequently.
no, storm drops are rare. You have to build a warp prism + templars. That's a lot of gas. Protoss players don't do storm drops, they do zealot warp-ins.
On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote: Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science.
This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after.
What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem?
Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
In the end it's more effective to make a Marine+CS with Ghost push. The main problem is Ghost just costs too many minerals early game and is not effective as early game defense. Plus if the Zerg is not doing the 6-Queen build you essentially got those Ghosts out for nothing.
Well first of all that's replays of a Platinum player, give me a high Masters player attempting this repeatedly or I'm not going to take this seriously.
Yeesh, now I see Terrans saying "omg costs too much mineral" and "omg costs too much gas!" It's pretty damn amazing you guys build anything beyond Marines.
So like I said, give me a high masters Terran who has tried this at least 20 times vs Zerg before you say it isn't viable. Making new strats work isn't just "oh I tried it once and raped everything yaaaay!" No, it takes loss after loss after loss till you figure out the inner workings of how to make shit happen, THAT my friends is how innovation occurs. You don't just try it once, lose and then give up.
Well I seriously doubt a Masters player is gonna find a different outcome behind this attempt for an early Hellion/Ghost push. In fact, there's plenty of Master players here saying the same thing.
No one is saying "It costs too much minerals" for the sake of saying it. They're saying it costs too many minerals because it costs too many minerals.
I'd personally like to see you try the build out for yourself if you're so confident that it'll work.
they only way id see that work is against infestor ling. So youd go 1 rax fe etc. and set up for a ghost hellion push that would hit right AFTER infestors would be out. Sounds difficult, but hey why not.
On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote: Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science.
This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after.
What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem?
Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
In the end it's more effective to make a Marine+CS with Ghost push. The main problem is Ghost just costs too many minerals early game and is not effective as early game defense. Plus if the Zerg is not doing the 6-Queen build you essentially got those Ghosts out for nothing.
Well first of all that's replays of a Platinum player, give me a high Masters player attempting this repeatedly or I'm not going to take this seriously.
Yeesh, now I see Terrans saying "omg costs too much mineral" and "omg costs too much gas!" It's pretty damn amazing you guys build anything beyond Marines.
So like I said, give me a high masters Terran who has tried this at least 20 times vs Zerg before you say it isn't viable. Making new strats work isn't just "oh I tried it once and raped everything yaaaay!" No, it takes loss after loss after loss till you figure out the inner workings of how to make shit happen, THAT my friends is how innovation occurs. You don't just try it once, lose and then give up.
Well I seriously doubt a Masters player is gonna find a different outcome behind this attempt for an early Hellion/Ghost push. In fact, there's plenty of Master players here saying the same thing.
No one is saying "It costs too much minerals" for the sake of saying it. They're saying it costs too many minerals because it costs too many minerals.
I'd personally like to see you try the build out for yourself if you're so confident that it'll work.
lol, hellion/ghost will never work. Because the moment a masters level zerg sees the hellion/ghost, he'll make roaches and ROFLSTOMP the terran player.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
Just try and seeker missle the mineral in a game of 4v4 or something. It TERRIBLE because the AOE on seeker missle isnt that great and it cost 125 energy. That take a long time to reach. Usually when you seeker missle, it only kills about 4-5 drone which is patheic factoring in the risk and cost of the raven. People tried Seeker missle in beta and early sc2 release on the mineral and it was soooo bad which is why turrets were better because you can shut down the mineral line way longer and turrets got decent DPS. Basically, the reason why terran dont seeker missle mineral line is pretty much the same reason Protoss dont do storm drop and dont forget.....storm only cost 75 energy compare to 125 energy and can be potentiall cast twice and HT are already a standard unit! The day you see protoss Storm drop, is the day you will MAYBE just maybe....see someone try to seeker missle the mineral line.
Getting a raven early require to much tech and with to little gain. Require so much gas to get them and they cost ton of more gas to make. Those gas could of been spent on earlyer upgrades for timing attacks or medivac for that timing attack. Once their out, you gotta wait for them to have energy and then they need their upgrade for Seeker missle too.....ugh it just bad. There isnt really any timing that is good to get raven except really late but by then it might already be to late.
Um...Protoss do Storm drops all the time so idk why you would mention that since it weakens your argument. I understand why you're saying Seeker missile sucks and I agree it could use some buffing...but c'mon, good Toss players Storm drop pretty frequently.
Protoss storm drop all the time? Seriously? Link me 2 game at MLG Anahiem of someone doing storm drop. At this point, you just look like a troll -.-
speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50. It looks like he's been doing mass ravens for months now with good success.
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
here's him going against mass infestors a week ago.
On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote: Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science.
This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after.
What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem?
Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
In the end it's more effective to make a Marine+CS with Ghost push. The main problem is Ghost just costs too many minerals early game and is not effective as early game defense. Plus if the Zerg is not doing the 6-Queen build you essentially got those Ghosts out for nothing.
Well first of all that's replays of a Platinum player, give me a high Masters player attempting this repeatedly or I'm not going to take this seriously.
Yeesh, now I see Terrans saying "omg costs too much mineral" and "omg costs too much gas!" It's pretty damn amazing you guys build anything beyond Marines.
So like I said, give me a high masters Terran who has tried this at least 20 times vs Zerg before you say it isn't viable. Making new strats work isn't just "oh I tried it once and raped everything yaaaay!" No, it takes loss after loss after loss till you figure out the inner workings of how to make shit happen, THAT my friends is how innovation occurs. You don't just try it once, lose and then give up.
Well I seriously doubt a Masters player is gonna find a different outcome behind this attempt for an early Hellion/Ghost push. In fact, there's plenty of Master players here saying the same thing.
No one is saying "It costs too much minerals" for the sake of saying it. They're saying it costs too many minerals because it costs too many minerals.
I'd personally like to see you try the build out for yourself if you're so confident that it'll work.
they only way id see that work is against infestor ling. So youd go 1 rax fe etc. and set up for a ghost hellion push that would hit right AFTER infestors would be out. Sounds difficult, but hey why not.
I don't think you could prevent scouting from Zerg with something like this and build roaches. Likewise i don't think you get enough units out to not lose to just pure speedling/baneling .
EPT
