This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support
Ghosts are awkward now in tvz. there only purpose now is to counter infestors, they dont have anny ability wich is usefull against all zerg troops. Terran has no good spelcaster against zerg. Ht does damage to everything with storm and counters all casters and energy based units also with feedback. Centrys and forcefields are usefull against all units (except air) Infestors do damage against everything with fungal and infested terrans (again 2 options) Ghosts do absolutely nothing against zerg besides infestors, nor are they usefull against terrans. The raven i guess is supposed to be the terran caster against zerg and terran but it is just meh. 4 turrets vs 8 infested terrans or 125 energy always failing hsm vs 75 energy never failing fungal ,pdd is a counter to damage it does not do damage itself and then there also is the problem of build time. They should bring back the original snipe, and if its to powerfull because people do tricks with their hotkeys and hacks so they can insta snipe, then something should be done about that,
After playing a few random games as zerg i noticed their huge dependency on gas, they realy need 8 mining geysers before they are able to do annything usefull, maybe there are changes for terran to do something to prevent this, or before this hits (i.e mass bio and relentless attacking)
Whatever idra says is probably what Demuslim is doing, so if he mentions that try to find the latest demuslim stream or replay or vods. I watched ret vs demuslim, Demuslim kinda shows off his bio play and I kinda read a lot from that, both in terms of his openings and how they worked into the midgame, and also his decisions and his CC timings and his later game transition.
I'm working some of it into my own play and I can really see how Bio is the current for TvZ. Bio allows you to expand quickly and go into midgame without really worrying too much about if your opponent will creep up to your balls because bio handles itself better on creep then marine/tank I've found. it's harder to be caught completely off guard if you stagger the shit out of your army as you advance and scan/check regularly. You're not stuck trying to leapfrog tanks and then getting caught randomly and OH FUCK THIS GAME.
After you have like 4 base and 9 rax constantly churning, making a bunch more starports is really good. If it's vs broods lategame then get a ton of vikings. If it's vs Ultras mass medivac/marauder/micro. You're going to have to make sure he never builds up a huge gassy army and never gets onto 5 base but I can really see how it works vs a lot of what Zerg are doing nowadays. Better then durdley marine/tank plays at least.
I also find that not going overboard with massively adding tons of raxes and focusing on macroing of them MKP or Kas style is good. Limit yourself to X amount of rax for fucks sake!
Oh and you're all set up to crank out a bunch of ghosts with just one simple addition of a ghost academy. Not sure why I want these fuckers in the army but I guess I can make them?!
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
here's him going against mass infestors a week ago.
He leaves the Z to macro completely for free for so long that any decent Z player that knows how to react to Ravens (i.e. just smash your front door as you're making them) would have killed him. Any Roach/Bane build would have hurt him big time and put him back way behind, and the Z's that were using the Infestors really had no idea how to control their units.
On June 28 2012 01:10 Rassy wrote: See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support
Ghosts are awkward now in tvz. there only purpose now is to counter infestors, they dont have anny ability wich is usefull against all zerg troops. Terran has no good spelcaster against zerg. Ht does damage to everything with storm and counters all casters and energy based units also with feedback. Centrys and forcefields are usefull against all units (except air) Infestors do damage against everything with fungal and infested terrans (again 2 options) Ghosts do absolutely nothing against zerg besides infestors, nor are they usefull against terrans. The raven i guess is supposed to be the terran caster against zerg and terran but it is just meh. 4 turrets vs 8 infested terrans or 125 energy always failing hsm vs 75 energy never failing fungal, not to mention build time. They should bring back the original snipe, and if its to powerfull because people do tricks with their hotkeys and hacks so they can insta snipe, then something should be done about that,
After playing a few random games as zerg i noticed their huge dependency on gas, they realy need 8 mining geysers before they are able to do annything usefull, maybe there are changes for terran to do something to prevent this, or before this hits (i.e mass bio and relentless attacking)
Ghosts don't even counter Infestors all that well. Infestors being a large unit means it's much harder to EMP a large group of them.
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
He leaves the Z to macro completely for free for so long that any decent Z player that knows how to react to Ravens (i.e. just smash your front door as you're making them) would have killed him. Any Roach/Bane build would have hurt him big time and put him back way behind, and the Z's that were using the Infestors really had no idea how to control their units.
I'm sure you didn't watch the video, because you'd see he built a PF at his natural to prevent any aggression. He doesn't need minerals, so he doesn't need a CC. Look at the other vids of him playing. I believe his current win rate is in the 60% to 70% against zerg. That's high for the new zerg changes. Also, he says that zerg usually macros hard but it's ok since the ravens are so cost effective. You may think it's stupid, but you can't argue against the numbers and his win rate.
Terran's are not adapting. The problem is that you are getting 4 - 6 hellions and doing pretty much nothing with them! You kind of denigh creep spread, but not so much. That's 600 minerals down the drain. What you should do is use those hellions to run up into their main! If you're complaining about creep spread and mid-game, then Zerg has to be OUTSIDE of his base to lay down tumours with his queens. Zerg cannot all in you if he has 4 extra queens. It may be possible with 2 extra but it will be extremely delayed, so I think that if you do this you will be setting yourself up for a good late game. You don't need to spot an extremely delayed all in if you have a good build... If he is outside w/ the queens and has few zerglings (because 2-4 queens extra is 300 - 600 minerals extra!) then that means free entrance into the main! End result = Skyterran when Zerg gets Brood Lords. See? Think outside the box. Why do you contain yourself?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just wanted to say (although this is offtopic) that mech + ravens is EXTREMELY overpowered if you get there, so don't you be talking about late game. And don't say anything until you try it.
On June 28 2012 01:25 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Terran's are not adapting. The problem is that you are getting 4 - 6 hellions and doing pretty much nothing with them! You kind of denigh creep spread, but not so much. That's 600 minerals down the drain. What you should do is use those hellions to run up into their main! If you're complaining about creep spread and mid-game, then Zerg has to be OUTSIDE of his base to lay down tumours with his queens. If he is outside w/ the queens and has few zerglings (because 2-4 queens extra is 300 - 600 minerals extra!) then that means free entrance into the main! End result = Skyterran when Zerg gets Brood Lords. See? Think outside the box.
good zergs will always block the ramp. Why don't you try it first before talking. And once the creep is spread enough, zergs don't even need to leave a queen by the ramp because they'll have more than enough time to move the queen there.
Ok.. There seems to be ALOT of zergs here telling Terrans how to play, and what todo, but lets just sit back a moment.. ALL you Zerg players telling Terran how to play and what-have-you. What are you going todo once Terran finds a way to actually use Ravens effectivly ((or finds another strategy that works)).. Honestly, what are you going todo.. Your not going to adjust your gameplay, and experiment to find a way to beat it. Your just going to cop out ((like Idra)) and QQ about how op said strat is untill Blizzard nerfs it ((either directly or indirectly)), leaving Terran in the same spot they are now.. Regardless of the Queen buff this-that-and the other fat chick, Terran ((or Zerg+Protoss)) needs an overhaul ((to be honest, all three races need to be redone)). The way the game is set up right now, nobody will ever be happy, and balance will always be an issue.. Say what you want, but if a game is going to have Starcraft as the name, all 3 races need to be balanced at all stages of the game, otherwise it is just Warcraft in space..
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
He leaves the Z to macro completely for free for so long that any decent Z player that knows how to react to Ravens (i.e. just smash your front door as you're making them) would have killed him. Any Roach/Bane build would have hurt him big time and put him back way behind, and the Z's that were using the Infestors really had no idea how to control their units.
I'm sure you didn't watch the video, because you'd see he built a PF at his natural to prevent any aggression. He doesn't need minerals, so he doesn't need a CC. Look at the other vids of him playing. I believe his current win rate is in the 60% to 70% against zerg. That's high for the new zerg changes. Also, he says that zerg usually macros hard but it's ok since the ravens are so cost effective. You may think it's stupid, but you can't argue against the numbers and his win rate.
Bling bust through depots that are walling, flood lings into main/natural line, win. It's not that hard. Pro players do not use Ravens for a reason; and it isn't because they didn't experiment with them. Going dual Port Ravens grant you 0 map control, and just allows the Z to expand for free or straight up kill you since you don't have anything to prevent Bling busts.
I dont see how mech+raven can stand up against bl infestor (but i am not that good lol) Would broodlord not just roll it? You are way to immobile with mech to take advantage of the slow broodlords so you have to push into the bl infestors sooner or later (since you to slow to go around it and kill bases) The only counter to the bl is the raven but firing hsm into bl infestor corruptor is a suicide mission and after 1 trade of armys zerg remaxes and terran takes like 15 minutes to max again >< 5+ factorys, at least 4 tech labbed starports (ravens build verry slow, 4 might not even be enough), i dont see that happening in reality.
But meh, this is just lower level theorycrafting so i dunno.
On June 28 2012 01:32 sGs.Stregon wrote: Ok.. There seems to be ALOT of zergs here telling Terrans how to play, and what todo, but lets just sit back a moment.. ALL you Zerg players telling Terran how to play and what-have-you. What are you going todo once Terran finds a way to actually use Ravens effectivly ((or finds another strategy that works)).. Honestly, what are you going todo.. Your not going to adjust your gameplay, and experiment to find a way to beat it. Your just going to cop out ((like Idra)) and QQ about how op said strat is untill Blizzard nerfs it, leaving Terran in the same spot they are now.. Regardless of the Queen buff this-that-and the other fat chick, Terran ((or Zerg+Protoss)) needs an overhaul. The way the game is set up right now, nobody will ever be happy, and balance will always be an issue.. Say what you want, but if a game is going to have Starcraft as the name, all 3 races need to be balanced at all stages of the game, otherwise it is just Warcraft in space..
That's not even going to happen. Zergs will learn to split and ravens will return to their realm of uselessness
On June 28 2012 01:32 sGs.Stregon wrote: Ok.. There seems to be ALOT of zergs here telling Terrans how to play, and what todo, but lets just sit back a moment.. ALL you Zerg players telling Terran how to play and what-have-you. What are you going todo once Terran finds a way to actually use Ravens effectivly ((or finds another strategy that works)).. Honestly, what are you going todo.. Your not going to adjust your gameplay, and experiment to find a way to beat it. Your just going to cop out ((like Idra)) and QQ about how op said strat is untill Blizzard nerfs it, leaving Terran in the same spot they are now.. Regardless of the Queen buff this-that-and the other fat chick, Terran ((or Zerg+Protoss)) needs an overhaul. The way the game is set up right now, nobody will ever be happy, and balance will always be an issue.. Say what you want, but if a game is going to have Starcraft as the name, all 3 races need to be balanced at all stages of the game, otherwise it is just Warcraft in space..
That's not even going to happen. Zergs will learn to split and ravens will return to their realm of uselessness
And let's not forget the nerf Ravens are going to get when Terran uses them well :D
@ people asking us to try new things and suggesting things like: hellion ghost opening lol building ravens all game for a mass raven army raven hellion opening
just stop, there is a reason there are no builds like this in gsl. there is a reason that when $$ is on the line, players dont build 200/100 or 100/200 casters and surrender all ability to pressure zerg
please, if you have any suggestions that come from high master tvz experience let us know, otherwise you're just wasting your own time.
analogy: i tell you, mass roach zvt is great! you say: but marine tank counters it, and roaches suck when maxed i say: but it's not standard and thus it might work great even though i have not tried it personally other than a few offraced matches on daybreak vs career plats
until ravens start to cost only minerals and magically appear and do not use any production time on my current structures, i probably won't be building them because their opportunity cost is horrible
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
He leaves the Z to macro completely for free for so long that any decent Z player that knows how to react to Ravens (i.e. just smash your front door as you're making them) would have killed him. Any Roach/Bane build would have hurt him big time and put him back way behind, and the Z's that were using the Infestors really had no idea how to control their units.
I'm sure you didn't watch the video, because you'd see he built a PF at his natural to prevent any aggression. He doesn't need minerals, so he doesn't need a CC. Look at the other vids of him playing. I believe his current win rate is in the 60% to 70% against zerg. That's high for the new zerg changes. Also, he says that zerg usually macros hard but it's ok since the ravens are so cost effective. You may think it's stupid, but you can't argue against the numbers and his win rate.
Bling bust through depots that are walling, flood lings into main/natural line, win. It's not that hard. Pro players do not use Ravens for a reason; and it isn't because they didn't experiment with them. Going dual Port Ravens grant you 0 map control, and just allows the Z to expand for free or straight up kill you since you don't have anything to prevent Bling busts.
If you watched his vids, you'd know that bling bust means auto-win for him.
He opens with engineer bay block, fast expand into CC. Zerg scouts the CC, and does ling, bling or roach all-in. Ling all-in will hit the PF and Ketroc will auto-win against it. And he doesn't build supply depots, he builds a barracks wall. He doesn't need minerals for a raven build, so all the minerals go into defense. Even if lings flood in, he has a seperate wall at the top of the ramp, and lings will never be able to kill the PF. Roach all-in will hit later, and by then he'll make banshees.
seriously, stop talking out of your ass and look at the vids first before talking. He's masters and he gets paired with with GM zergs. And this is him with 50apm and the worse micro and macro i've ever seen.
On June 28 2012 00:56 themell wrote: speaking of different builds, ketroc has been doing mass ravens (40+) and he's rank 36 masters and has an apm of about 50.
I think idra, talked on STOG that bio + raven were pretty powerful. I dont really memeber but he said that he was playing and ecountered some people doing it. Not sure if it a meta game change but considering that bio is quickly starting to become the new thing, it might not be a bad thing since terra are making less tanks, and with less tanks, comes more gas and more gas has to go somewhere. Maybe just more medivac? Raven? Ghost (probalb not too mineral intensive)? It has to go some where...probably just more medivac imo to counter the fungal
I've been watching Ketroc's vids for a bit now, and from what I can tell, Ravens seem to work, even with the new zerg changes.
some things I've noticed: infestors are actually really bad against ravens once you get a lot of ravens ravens are very very VERY cost efficient ravens are very light on minerals, so you can afford to build dozens of CCs, PFs, and barracks he has 50 apm (and bad micro/macro), but he still does extremely well. I'm surprised he's in master with that apm ravens will always win base races his current best matchup is against zerg, even with the new zerg changes.
basically, for end game, he does this: 1. ravens with PDD and a couple vikings will shut down corruptors and broodlords. 2. seeker missiles one-shot infestors 3. once he gets air superiority, he'll build a couple banshees to clean up all the ultras. 4. send his vikings across the map to kill all overlords while ravens kill the bases.
He leaves the Z to macro completely for free for so long that any decent Z player that knows how to react to Ravens (i.e. just smash your front door as you're making them) would have killed him. Any Roach/Bane build would have hurt him big time and put him back way behind, and the Z's that were using the Infestors really had no idea how to control their units.
I'm sure you didn't watch the video, because you'd see he built a PF at his natural to prevent any aggression. He doesn't need minerals, so he doesn't need a CC. Look at the other vids of him playing. I believe his current win rate is in the 60% to 70% against zerg. That's high for the new zerg changes. Also, he says that zerg usually macros hard but it's ok since the ravens are so cost effective. You may think it's stupid, but you can't argue against the numbers and his win rate.
Bling bust through depots that are walling, flood lings into main/natural line, win. It's not that hard. Pro players do not use Ravens for a reason; and it isn't because they didn't experiment with them. Going dual Port Ravens grant you 0 map control, and just allows the Z to expand for free or straight up kill you since you don't have anything to prevent Bling busts.
If you watched his vids, you'd know that bling bust means auto-win for him.
He opens with engineer bay block, fast expand into CC. Zerg scouts the CC, and does ling, bling or roach all-in. Ling all-in will hit the PF and Ketroc will auto-win against it. And he doesn't build supply depots, he builds a barracks wall. He doesn't need minerals for a raven build, so all the minerals go into defense. Even if lings flood in, he has a seperate wall at the top of the ramp, and lings will never be able to kill the PF. Roach all-in will hit later, and by then he'll make banshees.
seriously, stop talking out of your ass and look at the vids first before talking. He's masters and he gets paired with with GM zergs. And this is him with 50apm and the worse micro and macro i've ever seen.
And he gives complete and FULL map control to the Z player. As stated before, his build will autolose against any high level Z. Sure, he wins because Z players are not accustomed to seeing Ravens. No shit. I can build like the most gimmicky shitty unit in BW and beat shit tons of good players (aka the damn Scout), but that doesn't mean it's a legitimate build. Going dual port Ravens off a Wall/PF = almost pure cheese. It is highly dependent on your opponent not scouting, and also reacting terribly to them.
Not only did the Z completely fail in his control of his Infestors (walked into auto turret lines constantly) he also allowed himself to get Seeker Missile non-stopped at a certain point which was complete stupid of him.
There are so many holes in his build that are easily scouted out, and the level of play of that particular Z with the Mass Infestors was atrocious.
On June 20 2012 14:32 HolyArrow wrote: I'm personally kind of tired of this "Terran can't beat Zerg unless they're a lot more skilled" rhetoric. I saw it before when Protoss was the focus of Terran complaints, and now I'm seeing it again. I wish Terrans would give more credit to their opponents. It sets a sour tone for what should be a productive discussion regarding balance. I'm a Toss player myself so I don't have much to add to the actual debate regarding the matchup, but I just wanted to point that out.
Back when Terrans were doing really well in Korea last year, a lot of people liked to say, "Welp, I guess Terran players are just more skilled". Now that Blizzard has tried to balance the game and things are harder for Terran, the mindset is that Terran players are still "more skilled", but the game is just ridiculously unfair and it takes a far more skilled Terran to beat a Zerg/Protoss. Bleh.
You should give credit to terrans because they have always had to out micro their opponents.
Zergs deserve no credit for unjust buffs given to them.
On June 20 2012 14:32 HolyArrow wrote: I'm personally kind of tired of this "Terran can't beat Zerg unless they're a lot more skilled" rhetoric. I saw it before when Protoss was the focus of Terran complaints, and now I'm seeing it again. I wish Terrans would give more credit to their opponents. It sets a sour tone for what should be a productive discussion regarding balance. I'm a Toss player myself so I don't have much to add to the actual debate regarding the matchup, but I just wanted to point that out.
Back when Terrans were doing really well in Korea last year, a lot of people liked to say, "Welp, I guess Terran players are just more skilled". Now that Blizzard has tried to balance the game and things are harder for Terran, the mindset is that Terran players are still "more skilled", but the game is just ridiculously unfair and it takes a far more skilled Terran to beat a Zerg/Protoss. Bleh.
I dont know about you, but even still. When I win, I rarly get a GG, but I get a "You only won because Imba Terran", and when I lose I get a "You just suck, you need to get more skilled"..
So why should I give credit to the other races? I mean, STILL, with Terran as underwhelming as they are, I still get insulted, win or lose, and never get credit..
On June 20 2012 14:32 HolyArrow wrote: I'm personally kind of tired of this "Terran can't beat Zerg unless they're a lot more skilled" rhetoric. I saw it before when Protoss was the focus of Terran complaints, and now I'm seeing it again. I wish Terrans would give more credit to their opponents. It sets a sour tone for what should be a productive discussion regarding balance. I'm a Toss player myself so I don't have much to add to the actual debate regarding the matchup, but I just wanted to point that out.
Back when Terrans were doing really well in Korea last year, a lot of people liked to say, "Welp, I guess Terran players are just more skilled". Now that Blizzard has tried to balance the game and things are harder for Terran, the mindset is that Terran players are still "more skilled", but the game is just ridiculously unfair and it takes a far more skilled Terran to beat a Zerg/Protoss. Bleh.
I dont know about you, but even still. When I win, I rarly get a GG, but I get a "You only won because Imba Terran", and when I lose I get a "You just suck, you need to get more skilled"..
So why should I give credit to the other races? I mean, STILL, with Terran as underwhelming as they are, I still get insulted, win or lose, and never get credit..
So because you get insulted sometimes on ladder by randoms, you feel the need to come on here and do the same, and put other races down. Bit childish if you ask me.
started playing z (former mid-high masters t). winning is fun, but game sucks. i think when u play the other race u can notice the weaknesses as far as timings and what not to exploit. for the first 8:30 of the game, i honestly don't feel as though there is a weak point for zerg. which is why i think we're going to start seeing a ton of 2base all-ins from terran/protoss in xvz until hots comes out bc blizz will probably pigeon hole themselves into not changing this buff bc it was their almighty insight and we should give it time.
reason i play terran and complain, is because terran is the only race to me that feels like it is reminiscent of broodwar, the model that this game should be built off of, not a 3 headed fire breathing monster struck jumping wonder child who kills his father, that this game has become. i would be playing protoss (like i did alot in broodwar), if i felt like it was fun and like bw. but idk theres no real pt anymore because it seems blizz is intent on making this game easy rather than making this game tough and entertaining (the two are not mutually exclusive btw, tough and entertaining, but so far easy and entertaining are.)
I've got a great suggestion for terrans struggling in the matchup.
Open 12/14 rax with the 14 hidden(sometimes i dont, but only on bigger maps where drone scout is unlikely). Looks like a expand unless he gets lucky(same cheese as V P to own a greedy nexus first or 1gate with late cyber core). In the current meta-game where Z's are forgetting about their bunker troubles, he will eat the bait hook, line and sinker, and work his build around you going CC before depot. This seems to be one of the only ways to force lings nowadays...you should get to his doorstep right as pool completes, i dont think i have to explain the principles of the bunker rush to you, excpet if you can snipe an ovie, its pretty much GG right there.
Even if you cant get a bunk setup keep the marine pressure on while dropping CC at home, add 2 rax and a gas, go into a +1 stim MM timing aimed to kill his third base. Keep your marines at his door, constantly pressuring, so you force him to keep queens at front, build spines or build lings to try to kill your marines. When you see a pile of lings is a good time to take the most chokeable route home.
I always leave 1 marine behind his 3rd mineral line, so it's easy to work out the 3rd timing. You want to hit pretty much right as the third is popping so he gets the minimal production boost possible; the only way he can hold this at this time is pretty much banes, so you need to have your splits on point! After this point the game breaks down into a pretty standard TvZ, either you kill the third, take one yourself, and setup for a BIGGER timing to re-kill his 3rd while continually harassing with drops and getting 2x ups for your bio, or you fail to kill it, and need to take a huge greedy risk or a fat 2 base all-in. Basically you lose if your push doesnt trade efficiently/do damage.
I know it's cheesy opening but I think given that 4 queen openings make later pressure not very effective, we need to punish the zerg for being greedy in those opening minutes!!!!
EPT
