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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 28 2012 00:27 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:25 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though  And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what? What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything. Scan main, check third and poke natural with hellions. Please guys come on, im only diamond and i know this shit.
There's no way to poke behind the natural with a Helion unless the Zerg is asleep . You will have to scan the nat as well as the main if you really want to be sure
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On June 28 2012 00:19 Douillos wrote:
I dont understand cause people bring up flaws of ghosts that already existed pre nerf. Nothings new apm wise, emp radius wise, its just that you cant kill T3 units anymore.
You mean: you can't kill anything anymore. Not even a zergling - unless you snipe it twice, that is, which is so APM inefficient your whole army will die in the meantime.
You can kill infestors, and that's only in case zerg chooses not to babysit them and runs them alone around the map.
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On June 28 2012 00:30 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition.
No its not mission accomplished.A few Roaches don't delay the Zerg more than building Ghosts does the Terran. In fact i'd say it delays the Terran way more because his economy is slower.
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On June 28 2012 00:30 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition.
How many snipes to kill a queen? so lets say your up against 4 queens. Humm ok, now with good transfuses. ok now hellions vs queens even without transfuse.
I dont really believe this could work.
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On June 28 2012 00:26 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:23 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind. 1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
... The queen buff stops hellion scouting of the natural, and does a pretty good job denying scouting of the third on certain maps.
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On June 28 2012 00:30 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition.
and what will you bunker with? ghost? Because I will tell you now, you will have a really crappy army or no army. Zerg doesn't even need that many roaches. Like a couple will be enough to stop the Terran push. Then the zerg player can make a couple more and roll over the terran.
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On June 28 2012 00:30 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:27 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:25 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what? What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything. Scan main, check third and poke natural with hellions. Please guys come on, im only diamond and i know this shit. There's no way to poke behind the natural with a Helion unless the Zerg is asleep . You will have to scan the nat as well as the main if you really want to be sure
Well i see we dont have the same hellion control. Or maybe just not the same opponents 
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On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
As hillarious as it sounds it's been tested on the B.net forums: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5871487580?page=1
There's only three replays of this in action, but it's pretty clear to see why it fails:
http://drop.sc/200753
http://drop.sc/200754
http://drop.sc/200755
In the end it's more effective to make a Marine+CS with Ghost push. The main problem is Ghost just costs too many minerals early game and is not effective as early game defense. Plus if the Zerg is not doing the 6-Queen build you essentially got those Ghosts out for nothing.
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On June 28 2012 00:32 RancidTurnip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:26 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:23 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind. 1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest. ... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark.
Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions...
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On June 28 2012 00:30 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition. Obviously you need to have a follow-up strategy beyond your initial pressure, but you are still putting on pressure and slowing the Zerg down, isn't that what you Terran players want? Or are you actually still looking for early game "pressure" that just outright wins you games? If you opened Ghost/Hellion and then transitioned into a fairly fast Siege Tank or two you would basically be completely safe vs any type of counterattack, fyi.
Where are you getting the gas for all this? Going to Ghost Academy to bait out Roach is not economical. Ghosts are more expensive than Roaches. Hell, the Ghost Academy alone is expensive.
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On June 28 2012 00:33 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:30 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:27 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:25 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what? What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything. Scan main, check third and poke natural with hellions. Please guys come on, im only diamond and i know this shit. There's no way to poke behind the natural with a Helion unless the Zerg is asleep . You will have to scan the nat as well as the main if you really want to be sure Well i see we dont have the same hellion control. Or maybe just not the same opponents
So how do Helions get into a natural with a few Queens roaming around before dieing ?
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On June 28 2012 00:10 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:09 Sovern wrote:
The biggest problem with queens is their cost. 150 minerals gets you a unit that can heal, spread creep, spawn larva, can attack ground & air at a long range, has high hp, and is t1 tech. Queens are the only psionic unit that doesn't cost gas. Blizzard should make queens cost gas so that zergs cant just rush to hive tech off of 3 bases without delaying their tech if they decide to make queens. queens costing gas? LOL there is some stupid suggestions in this thread but this has to be the best one.
Nice class, right now queens are stupid as they are and I think they either need to cost gas or have their range reduced. Don't you think it's stupid that queens have so much utility yet they only cost 150 minerals and no gas? If that means zergs need to mine gas after hatch first before making queens than so be it.
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On June 28 2012 00:35 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:33 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:30 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:27 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:25 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what? What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything. Scan main, check third and poke natural with hellions. Please guys come on, im only diamond and i know this shit. There's no way to poke behind the natural with a Helion unless the Zerg is asleep . You will have to scan the nat as well as the main if you really want to be sure Well i see we dont have the same hellion control. Or maybe just not the same opponents So how do Helions get into a natural with a few Queens roaming around before dieing ?
Run past them? jesus christ its not hard is it.
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On June 28 2012 00:35 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:33 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:30 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:27 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:25 s3rp wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what? What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything. Scan main, check third and poke natural with hellions. Please guys come on, im only diamond and i know this shit. There's no way to poke behind the natural with a Helion unless the Zerg is asleep . You will have to scan the nat as well as the main if you really want to be sure Well i see we dont have the same hellion control. Or maybe just not the same opponents So how do Helions get into a natural with a few Queens roaming around before dieing ?
At 7:00 queens are out of the natural putting down creep.
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On June 28 2012 00:33 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:30 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition. and what will you bunker with? ghost? Because I will tell you now, you will have a really crappy army or no army. Zerg doesn't even need that many roaches. Like a couple will be enough to stop the Terran push. Then the zerg player can make a couple more and roll over the terran.
You don't even need roaches. Just one spine crawler stops the whole push.
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On June 28 2012 00:34 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:32 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:26 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:23 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind. 1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest. ... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark. Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions...
No, they don't "insta gib", but how far into the natural are you poking? I would like to face the zergs you're facing that make a habit of placing their main tech in front of their 3 or more queens (which are spreading creep and pushing back the hellions unopposed)
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On June 28 2012 00:34 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. As hillarious as it sounds it's been tested on the B.net forums: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5871487580?page=1There's only three replays of this in action, but it's pretty clear to see why it fails: http://drop.sc/200753http://drop.sc/200754http://drop.sc/200755In the end it's more effective to make a Marine+CS with Ghost push. The main problem is Ghost just costs too many minerals early game and is not effective as early game defense. Plus if the Zerg is not doing the 6-Queen build you essentially got those Ghosts out for nothing.
Well first of all that's replays of a Platinum player, give me a high Masters player attempting this repeatedly or I'm not going to take this seriously.
Yeesh, now I see Terrans saying "omg costs too much mineral" and "omg costs too much gas!"
It's pretty damn amazing you guys build anything beyond Marines.
So like I said, give me a high masters Terran who has tried this at least 20 times vs Zerg before you say it isn't viable. Making new strats work isn't just "oh I tried it once and raped everything yaaaay!" No, it takes loss after loss after loss till you figure out the inner workings of how to make shit happen, THAT my friends is how innovation occurs. You don't just try it once, lose and then give up.
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On June 28 2012 00:37 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:33 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:30 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition. and what will you bunker with? ghost? Because I will tell you now, you will have a really crappy army or no army. Zerg doesn't even need that many roaches. Like a couple will be enough to stop the Terran push. Then the zerg player can make a couple more and roll over the terran. You don't even need roaches. Just one spine crawler stops the whole push.
True, but the Terran has no army. I think it's better for the Zerg to just make a bunch of roaches and kill the Terran player instantly.
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On June 28 2012 00:38 RancidTurnip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:34 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:32 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:26 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:23 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind. 1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest. ... The queen buff does a pretty good job of denying hellion scouting of the third on certain maps, sure it works well on some maps, but others Terran is in the dark. Come on, queens dont insta gib hellions... No, they don't "insta gib", but how far into the natural are you poking? I would like to face the zergs you're facing that make a habit of placing their main tech in front of their 3 or more queens (which are spreading creep and pushing back the hellions unopposed)
he is talking about suiciding your hellions ((i personally dont like just throwing away units))
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that taeja vs violet game was so painfull to watch, it really made the balance shine
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EPT
