EPTand the energy cost is ridiculous, 125 energy? who thought this was a good idea
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
and the energy cost is ridiculous, 125 energy? who thought this was a good idea | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote: See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place. -Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts. Yeah, Blizzard did not approve ghosts deciding the end-game but somehow approves infestors doing just the same. And a number of ghost weaknesses were listed before in this thread: - cloak ability gets negated by infestor's fungal ability - fungal + lings / infested terrans kill ghosts at range 11 (9 fg range + 2 radius) vs snipe range 10. - you need one fungal to fetch yourself a number of ghosts while it takes two snipes to kill a single infestor - you can't count on landing an EMP on many festors since they are so big It all comes down to this: ghosts suck vs infestors. They are supposed to counter infestors, but in fact infestors do a better job at countering ghosts themselves. That's why ghosts went extinct in TvZ and I can't see them coming back (apart from nuke harass, but it's just as important as getting 5 reapers at 30 minutes into the game to do the same). | ||
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RancidTurnip
United States105 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though  I don't know how you could start out making a bad post, and then edit it to make it just plain mean. | ||
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parkin
1080 Posts
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themell
43 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:50 themell wrote: Ravens are expensive. And PDD? are you serious? What early game unit will PDD work against for a timing attack? Queens, maybe *captain obvious* | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote: And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. 7:00 is a good time to scan. | ||
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Sovern
United States312 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:54 scypio wrote: Yeah, Blizzard did not approve ghosts deciding the end-game but somehow approves infestors doing just the same. And a number of ghost weaknesses were listed before in this thread: - cloak ability gets negated by infestor's fungal ability - fungal + lings / infested terrans kill ghosts at range 11 (9 fg range + 2 radius) vs snipe range 10. - you need one fungal to fetch yourself a number of ghosts while it takes two snipes to kill a single infestor - you can't count on landing an EMP on many festors since they are so big It all comes down to this: ghosts suck vs infestors. They are supposed to counter infestors, but in fact infestors do a better job at countering ghosts themselves. That's why ghosts went extinct in TvZ and I can't see them coming back (apart from nuke harass, but it's just as important as getting 5 reapers at 30 minutes into the game to do the same). Ghost sux vs infestors... Wait what ? Are you serious ? They always been the dark nemesis for infestors. But you're right, we have overseer everywhere, we all know where all your ghost are, it's easy to FG them before they even snipe us, according our perfect knowledge of the range in game and the perfect timing to hit FG. Fine, i won't bother reading this thread anymore. I guess it's useless to argue, but I do feel that ghost are still underused though. You should stop thinking yourself as making them for your end-all-game, they're not but still a very strong unit against infestors and to a lesser extent against banes in very few numbers. You just don't use them for your average game, much like us with hydras. | ||
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Reaps
United Kingdom1280 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:09 Sovern wrote: The biggest problem with queens is their cost. 150 minerals gets you a unit that can heal, spread creep, spawn larva, can attack ground & air at a long range, has high hp, and is t1 tech. Queens are the only psionic unit that doesn't cost gas. Blizzard should make queens cost gas so that zergs cant just rush to hive tech off of 3 bases without delaying their tech if they decide to make queens. queens costing gas? LOL there is some stupid suggestions in this thread but this has to be the best one. | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote: And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:50 themell wrote: not sure if your post is serious or just a troll or just a lack of knowledge. ghosts don't emp infestors well because infestors are fat. Also, a missed emp will mean a fungal on your clump of ghosts, and fungalled ghosts are easy kills. Snipe is apm intensive and ghosts are near worthless against every other zerg unit. Trying to snipe while a hoard of banelings rolls towards your infantry line is suicide. Nukes? lol, ok man, whatever ... Ravens are expensive. And PDD? are you serious? What early game unit will PDD work against for a timing attack? Unless a zerg is making hydras, you can't make ravens for a PDD timing attackl. Auto turrets are bad, real bad. Upgraded lings will chew through them. If the zerg doesn't upgrade, turrets may be viable. Mainly, turrets are better used as a "blocker" to soak damage. And seeker in mineral lines? lol, maybe if you want to kill like 3 drones. The only use for seeker is to kill infestors since one seeker can one-shot an infestor. But again, this is risky. One fungal and your ravens are dead. You should at least try playing Terran before offering advice. I am seriously questioning how much knowledge you have about this .... Rofl, your examples are hilariously cute. Yeah, if you go to spend all your AMP on snipe while a major battle is going on you might lose, big surprise. Try sending your Ghosts out to snipe shit not the exact moment the Zerg is flanking you from 4 different directions, rofl. How about like, oh gee I dunno, while Zerg is building up his army you go out and snipe shit? Really ingenious idea I know! It's not like every single terran who has ever used Ghosts doesn't already do that or something...rofl. And really...you have never used Raven and PDD in a 1-1-1 timing attack? Christ, do you even play Terran? Someone previously said Seeker only kills like 3 workers in a mineral line? If that's true that sucks, I wouldn't really know though cuz I've never seen it attempted in the first place. Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote: And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. In TvP at least, the majority of MMM builds have a built in 6:30 scan that you're supposed to place between the main and the natural. That's not to say we can throw out scans willy nilly, but it's possible. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:09 Sovern wrote: The biggest problem with queens is their cost. 150 minerals gets you a unit that can heal, spread creep, spawn larva, can attack ground & air at a long range, has high hp, and is t1 tech. Queens are the only psionic unit that doesn't cost gas. Blizzard should make queens cost gas so that zergs cant just rush to hive tech off of 3 bases without delaying their tech if they decide to make queens. Making queens cost gas, ahahahahah. So zerg must take gas in order to make their first queen and second queen? This would demolish the zerg race for good. | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
On June 27 2012 23:50 Shiori wrote: Am I the only person who sees a direct parallel between Zergs telling Terrans to use Ravens/Ghosts to solve every problem and the old "use Nydus Worms" response that Protoss players used to give Zerg before Infestor/BL was discovered/viable/popular? I'd imagine that this sort of rhetoric will go the same way. Nydus Worms weren't viable, and neither is an early Raven for Creep duty. Hi Shiori By now it feels safe to say that "get ghosts/ravens" is the new "get nydus". The flaws concerning ghosts versus infestors were very well elaborated in various posts. While beeing able to fullfill it's "anti-caster-caster-role" in tvp, ghosts fail to counter infestors for the reasons given in a couple of articles. And ravens, well, not much to say. I guess if you insist on calling it a "insanly strong unit", ignoring all the disadvantages it brings with it, no one can cure you. Funny thing is, how all of us are failing to see the real solution to tvz lategame: "Build carriers"! Oh wait... | ||
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themell
43 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:10 RaiZ wrote: Ghost sux vs infestors... Wait what ? Are you serious ? They always been the dark nemesis for infestors. But you're right, we have overseer everywhere, we all know where all your ghost are, it's easy to FG them before they even snipe us, according our perfect knowledge of the range in game and the perfect timing to hit FG. Fine, i won't bother reading this thread anymore. I guess it's useless to argue, but I do feel that ghost are still underused though. You should stop thinking yourself as making them for your end-all-game, they're not but still a very strong unit against infestors and to a lesser extent against banes in very few numbers. You just don't use them for your average game, much like us with hydras. no and no. Ghosts are underused because they suck. They used to be used ALLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TIME before they got nerfed. Ravens are better against infestors because it takes 300+ energy to fungal a raven to death, while one seeker will one-hit an infestor. Ghosts are made to be against Protoss units, NOT zerg units. It takes two snipes to kill an infestor, but you need to send in a good amount of ghosts to kill their infestors. But one fungal will kill the entire clump of ghosts. | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote: Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote: What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Saccing an overlord doesn't cost supply minerals and one larva, it costs supply or minerals and one larva. If you spend minerals and one larva you end up on the same supply. | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:16 Meff wrote: Actually, if scouting such a build at the 7 minutes timing is the problem then a floating barracks will probably work better than a scan. It costs a little less and sees a wider area/lasts longer. The only way for Z to kill it quickly would be to have a very high number of queens, and in that case T can rule out a strong all-in. A strong all-in at 7-8 minutes with one rax, hanging out? Hm... | ||
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