This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
Your entire post shows your ignorance, and your Zerg Bias..
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and on of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
Well here is the issue. Terran goes reactor hellions because it gives him 3 vital things.
1) Tech: He has a factory and some gas production. If he sees a bust coming he can switch to siege tank style much easier to defend or followup with banshee harass. 2) Economy: A reasonably quick CC, especially considering it is after some tech. 3) Map Control: The hellions (used) to be able to fight off tumors spreading from the zerg base early on by kiting the queen and igniting the tumor before taking damage and one shotting it. It denies the 3rd base drone from getting to the expo as well. It takes a few roaches to move them around but that at least forces a few units and a tech building.
Now if the terran does a plethora of other openings he is susceptible to many things. If he does economy builds (1rax Expo into 3 OC, quick double Ebay, powering low tech units with lots of production waiting for economy to kick in) the zerg has 2 options. The first is to bust it with banes/roaches, which can end games quick! Second and more common in high level play, Zerg can simply mirror the build and get his own economy booming and be quicker in upgrades and mass his tech choice/force lategame faster.
Forcing lategame faster is....scary. Infestor Broodlord Corruptor is a STRONG army that needs really expensive and fragile units to counter (vikings, which lose to corruptor in equal number, thors who can be isolated, marines who can be fungaled and banelinged although cheap are not effective with good micro). There is no terran army that can rival the zerg 3-base-economy if the terran doesn't sacrifice tech for a 3rd base really quick. Siege tanks are late, there is more gas to put into anti-marine-tank units such as muta, infestor, baneling. Zerg also has a stronger production than a terran for a while before bases are saturated and can support the "equal" production.
Now if you suggest teching before your 3rd base after taking your natural, you're playing too passive against a zerg. You have to do damage to him, or at least threaten him, so he doesn't make 80 drones and do as he pleases the first 15 minutes of the game. Drones are produced quicker than scvs and therefore the army can be made stronger-faster.
The issues with the queens aren't range outside of the hellion interaction which causes the root problem. Creepspread is OP because map vision is OP. If you see 2-4 tanks, a few medivacs, and marines 3/4 of the map aware (watchtower) you can spam your units, gather your forces, setup flanks, and prepare many banelings which will be ready before the tanks siege up. If terran stops and clears creep you get another production cycle of units. If he doesn't, you know exactly how he is splitting and what tanks are sieged.
It isn't to say that Terran is all out of options but creep is a REALLY strong mechanic that is difficult to deny at this point. It'd be like making scans a cooldown energyless ability from the Terran OC. Every 30 seconds you can check what's up with the enemy per OC and continue to mule.
The Terran midgame army (Marine tank medivac) needs to do damage otherwise the zerg will tech behind a crushed push and make that army cost ineffective due to tank splash damage. I'm ok with this mindset to the race, and blizzard has said this is how the race is designed. The issues arise when the most greedy zerg with a few creepspread queens can crush a 2 base allin with relative ease on a regular basis (assuming equal skill). Now when we watch pros do this they still have the ability to manage it better and use their composition better and make it work. However as the skill level drops the Queen and creepspread is harder to contain and harder to punish.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
Reactor hellion became standard because everything else was either directly nerfed, or phased into obsoletion through progressive map changes. Marines scale better than queens, but with the size of current maps, in order to get an actual threatening amount to the zergs front door (before they reach 3 base and 70 drones) usually means going all-in, otherwise it's so easily shut down that we're just wasting minerals and time.
If the Zerg doesn't stop making queens we are free to tech and expand, but that's playing for late game which Zerg has the definite and intentional advantage in, and we are then made very open to being punished by bane/roach/ling all in.
Ravens aren't usually made because they're shut down pretty hard by infestors, which are used nearly every game and can be made cheaper and in much higher quantity than ravens can. Ghosts would be much better to use in large numbers than ravens, but EMPs nerfed radius makes it hard to land on a decent number of infestors, and snipe is APM intensive and its damage is lackluster on anything other than infestors.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
I think the queen range up is fine and leads to more macro game and i find it more enjoyable.
However, the late game terran needs to be modified in order to compete with late game zerg. The answer is in the raven but at the moment this unit is useless.
Turrets? Good for defense but useless for a straight engagement. PDD? useful against mutalisk,hydralisk and corruptor (lol) HSM? infestor outrange HSM and so easy to dodge
I know that blizz will not change these spells but the solution for tvz lategame is in spellcaster : ghost or raven.
1. only applies when the expansion is already here. Until then, it's a no point. SC2 might have new ideas coming in, but the scene is established, the best players are established and the metagame is established, and we can use history and experience to be able to analyze current situations and changes better. Back then none of these factors were present.
2. I'm sure you enjoy the matchup, and I might as well if I played zerg. However I don't think it's unfair to say that the matchup is worse off because of the change, and considering what we gained with the change (zergs have to try less hard to defend against hellions I guess?) to a previously balanced matchup and what we had to give up to get it. I didn't mind all the trillion bunker nerfs that terrans got even though Blizzard might have gone overboard in combination with larger maps, because they made the matchup better overall. This change? No positive change whatsoever. I don't think I'm the only one feeling this way, since there hasn't been this much of an uproar over a change since ever, and the uproar is cross race.
3. Whether it was wrong or not, it was generally considered that zergs had the super lategame going for them even back then due to the larva mechanics. They did have something to look forward too when they worked at surviving. At the moment as a terran, your thought process is basically "oh, I didn't cripple him the first ten minutes, it's time to slowly die unless he goes full retard."
1. This makes no sense to me. That's like saying in the early days that we can't hope for new improvements until they actually release them? Lol. We already know 2 expansions are coming out, simple as that. You know 100% that there will be massive metagame shifts and unit composition changes, what is there to argue? My point is that it's NOT THAT BAD. Now you just enter into mid and lategame without easily being able to gain an advantage unless you do something clever, you can't simply do the exact same cookie-cutter build every game and have a very high chance of crippling your opponent...back in the early days Zergs had to worry about simply dying in the first 10 minutes of every single game...just let that sink in for a moment as you reflect upon how bad you guys have it now, lawl. Also, I'm still not convinced that Terrans simply don't require more build changes and strategy improvement, Terrans have been crying about this change since the day it came out and I really think that 90% of the people complaining have done hardly a thing to try and change their own play up in compensation. The only reason you see a difference between Terran complaints now and past Zerg complaints is because you are very, very biased.
2. Maybe you think there is no positives but I see plenty. For one, Zergs typically aren't dying nearly as often because one of their Queens was out of position by a quarter of an inch allowing Hellions to run by a gap the Zerg thought was covered. Secondly, ZvZ is greatly improved and a hell of a lot more fun now as well.
3. Actually Zergs still died all the time in the super late game vs Protoss and Terrans...so, your opinion is simply that, your opinion. Also, you seem to still think that Zerg has an advantage over Zerg in the late game but I really doubt that, Terrans can play late game just fine if they utilize their units properly and play it out right. I still almost never see Terrans build Ghosts, yet the few that do always make me happy to play against because their late game is 3x as hard to fight as a scrub Terran who refuses to build them even once.
Beenu, You are obviously "very, very biased" yourself. Simply saying "Terran's need to evolve" and "use their units properly" does not get rid of the pink elephant in the room. Want to talk about bias? Morrow (Pro Zerg and Terran) player, believes they are too powerful and the buff was unnecessary. As a former GM, I would hope you take some advice when i say there is only so much you can do mechanically when a zerg queens up to 5-7 queens, turtles then takes a substantial eco advantage. It becomes a all-in coin flip for Terran. I suggest you watch some of these interviews and read some legitmate Pro threads before you throw your, less experienced, two sense in.
Watch around 5:30
Kawaii rice interview
blah blah blah, yawn. I'm not really biased much at all really, I understand Terrans are having a tough time and for some players that may be a legitimate concern, no argument here. Whether or not the buff was "necessary" or not is still irrelevant, it exists simple as that so you need to learn to deal with it until either the problem goes away with metagame changes or blizzard makes changes. But no, most Terrans seem to prefer to just weep and cry about Queens and then use that opportunity to start crying about Infestors all over again [rooooooofl] and quite frankly, when people keep crying about Infestors they just lose all credibility with me. It's hard not to generalize, but this thread makes me think Terrans just wanna cry for the sake of crying when they can't even stay on-topic for what they want to cry about in the first place.
A lot of Terran's are not whining...they're just switching to zerg LOL. Why not, its arguably the most powerful race. I was just watching the ogs4gg stream. He just lost to DeMuslim who is offracing as zerg! DeMuslim, like he mentions in his interview criticizing the riduclous buff, just started playing zerg and made mass queendralisks on 3base...GG to 4GG helions and banshee push! Awesome. So to answer your question, we dont whine, I just hope Blizzard is satisfied when they have a notoriously low level of Terran players on ladder.
Ya, Terrans are just spoiled. For once they get the shaft an they act more butthurt than I could have imagined possible, it's cute. The sense of entitlement Terrans have is quite stunning, but typical.
Not really different when the zergs were whining or protoss for that matter.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against against everything else...
Im a diamond T, gently reaching master after a drop to plat when i switched from Z 1,5 months ago.
I dont mind the queen buff. Its logical Z can get a third up real fast if T can get a 2nd real fast. And its logical if T doesnt do anything to control creep and plays too passive, well they get creep under there feet.
I think everybody should calm down, take a deep breath, stop bitching and go back into "lets look for a solution".
On June 27 2012 14:22 worldsnap wrote: [quote] If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all.
What do you add to the conversation by stating this?
He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively.
DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races.
It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts.
In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing.
As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you.
Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens.
Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings.
why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway. 1) Queens don't use any larva 2) it provides both ground and air defense 3) transfuse is a great ability.
And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game.
Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro. You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units
I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units
1) not making queens uses even less larvae than queens ("not using larvae" is a reasoning that only matters when you do need units). 2) defense is pointless if it comes at a point of the game where the opponent doesn't plan to attack 3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse.
At most, I could accept as a valid point superior creep spread, because that's something that has utility independently of what the opponent does.
Somebody mentioned, earlier in the thread, that Bomber is experimenting with ghosts+BCs and that this composition seems to work in the lategame, but that his current problem is that you can't safely tech to that on maps that aren't good for turtling. I'm willing to bet that the T lategame doesn't turn out as bad as people currently think that it is, if a few progamers spend a couple months designing gameplans that focus on it.
Why are you not using transfuse? A queen with full energy is a queen with 675 health. And you should have too much minerals to spend anyway, and not enough larva to use it all. No one is saying "make 1000 queens", people are saying make 3 queens, take an early third, and supplement your army as needed depending on army composition. You can't go wrong with making queens because they are a solid unit and lets you take a quick 3rd for fast teching.
and fast teching = fast tier 3 = butt pained terran
I don't know if I'm not explaining what I mean properly or not, but the idea is: you need those three extra queens (getting to a total of 6) to defend the third only if T goes for pressure builds. Against a greedy build, it would arguably be better to tech faster. If you really do want extra queens for transfusing lategame armies and don't have to defend early game aggression, then it makes more sense to build them in the midgame (where spending minerals delays you less) than at the start of the game.
In the current situation where T is still stuck on a "must apply pressure in the early game" mindset, you can indeed build queens blindly and be sure that they'll be a good investment. Give T time to either figure out hyper-greedy builds and a suitable lategame composition or to polish two-base all-ins that don't really care for queens and that will change, though.
Terran goes for hyper greedy build, zerg switchs into a 2 base all-in and rolls over the armyless Terran.. GG Terran goes for pressure build, and zerg macros up unmolested and rolls over terran late game.. GG
Come on. You obviously don't play a greedy build blind, if the zerg is staying on two bases it's time to switch plans. You don't have to play so greedy as to start your third before the Z does. You're also not going to be armyless if Z switches to aggression afterwards, because deviating from a build that gets an additional CC compared to your pre-patch standard build (400 minerals) is not going to have a hard time defending an all-in for which Z spent 350 minerals on an extra hatch and 300 mins on two queens that do not contribute to the attack. Hell, it should be easier if anything.
It could be that I'm missing some details so things don't quite work as I said, but in that case, please explain or point to a VOD. One-line answers are not really helpful.
Suggesting HSM against mineral lines is hillarious . You do know what at best you kill 3 workers with one HSM unless for some wierd reason he moves them all in one place ? The splash against ground is that bad.
One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little?
I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build.
Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either.
I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though
On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote: Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
Launching a Seeker Missile at a mineral line is the most disappointing thing for me in the entire game. Getting a Raven that deep in is hard enough, but you might kill three or maybe four workers with a missile.
On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote: Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
Launching a Seeker Missile at a mineral line is the most disappointing thing for me in the entire game. Getting a Raven that deep in is hard enough, but you might kill three or maybe four workers with a missile.
Auto-Turret is far better for harassing mineral lines.
HSM is supposed to be used vs clumped up armies and as a defense mechanism to control space. But in general it's just a poor spell.
On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote: Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
Launching a Seeker Missile at a mineral line is the most disappointing thing for me in the entire game. Getting a Raven that deep in is hard enough, but you might kill three or maybe four workers with a missile.
Auto-Turret is far better for harassing mineral lines.
HSM is supposed to be used vs clumped up armies and as a defense mechanism to control space. But in general it's just a poor spell.
Oh, I agree. I'm just responding to the guy that was wondering why Seeker Missiles aren't used against workers.
On June 27 2012 22:33 avc wrote: You guys have been warned so much about not relevant balance whine, I don't know how this thread is still going.
Maybe they know that if this one is locked another five will spring up!
Queens alone did not do what is currently happening. Queens are not suddenly some unstoppable force with 5 range. You give them too much respect.
I think that that buff is a bit more deceptive in how it's changing the games. It's not that Taeja or a lot of these Terran players are getting to 200/200 and then losing to Queens. It's not even as simple as Taeja doing an aggressive build that is thwarted by Queens and then the Zerg capitalizes and wins the game. The thing is that the Queen buff makes it so much more difficult for Terrans to be aggressive early game with Hellions that they have less options. Because of how good Queens are early game at defending, the Zerg knows that they can be more greedy and get more and more drones, because the chances that Taeja or any Terran does something incredibly cheesy is even lower, especially something that involves Hellions. A change like the Queen buff completely changes the metagame of the match-up so even if it doesn't seem that the change directly affected every match, it certainly affected the mindset of each player and the metagame of that match and therefore it did affect the outcome of the match.
And as far as whether or not this thread should be shut down, I think you can make an argument for whether or not it should be closed. If TeamLiquid wants to close threads by the same standards that they have used since StarCraft 2 first came out, then this thread should NOT be closed. While TL has closed threads in the past regarding the balance of the current metagame, for the most part, threads like this have stayed open during times of balance trauma. Back when PuMa could beat any Protoss with his 1-1-1, there were probably more threads regarding the balance of the 1-1-1, all similar to this thread, were left open outside of extreme cases. Similarly Zerg "whine" threads have always been open even when it did not seem like Terran or Protoss were some how broken. So if TL wants to run their website with a common law style of closing/banning threads, then this thread should stay open.
At the same time, it's completely up to their discretion and I would not be broken up about it if they decided to shut the thread. That being said you have done a nice job of trolling in this thread posting things like "well try harder" and as a person who is here in this thread to discuss the effects of the change and the current metagame as well as the balance of teh metagame, I would like to ask you to either post more relevant posts or just simply leave the thread. Most of the more "whiny" Terran posts have been in response to your posts, if you want to complain about the thread, then don't spur what you're complaining about. Thanks, have a nice day!
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little?
I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build.
Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either.
I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though
That's an interesting idea; in TvT I actually used to almost always drop a scan around the 6-7 minute mark to see what my opponent was doing. If I could drop a scan and immediately find out what my opponent is doing 100% of the time, I would do it every game. However, about fifty percent of the time you're probably not going to see what the Zerg is doing, because they built their buildings in one place, and you scanned another. A MULE equates to a large burst in income, and if I scan a Zerg's main or natural, don't see anything helpful, and then he comes at me with an all-in that my scan missed, not only am I being greedy, but I also am even further behind because I didn't have the burst of income the MULE generates to defend the all-in. It means that TvZ is an incredibly coin-flip style game when Terran tries to be greedy but if Zerg wants to be greedy, as long as they have their overlords ready to scout at the right time they can hold off Terran all-ins with a much higher success rate. Seeing as Zerg players have consistently complained throughout the history of StarCraft about how their games are decided by coin-flips (shouts out to IdrA! :D), I would expect that Terrans get the same sort of help in preventing coin flip scenarios from happening.
Also, losing a MULE early puts Terran behind more and more into the lategame, which happens to be where Terrans are already struggling a lot against Zergs. Yes Zerg has to make similar sacrifices (such as an Overlord or two) to get the information they need, but that scouting a bit more reliable and frankly one or two overlords for reliable and accurate information is worth a lot more than a losing a MULE to flip a coin and see what you might scan.
On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote: Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
Launching a Seeker Missile at a mineral line is the most disappointing thing for me in the entire game. Getting a Raven that deep in is hard enough, but you might kill three or maybe four workers with a missile.
Auto-Turret is far better for harassing mineral lines.
HSM is supposed to be used vs clumped up armies and as a defense mechanism to control space. But in general it's just a poor spell.
I wish blizzard would change that spell to another defensive spell. Like some mass dispel ability that could get rid of positive and negative effects on a unit, like a fungal or cloak. That would be a fun ability to use in my opinion. One can wish though.
Ok, here is some idea that would make Raven a bit more useful (mainly in TvZ) :
Make Auto-Turret a flying unit, just like PDD already is. This change would make the Raven's primary ability even more useful against Zerg army in mid game as it would force Z to invest some more money on AA units.
On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote: Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential.
The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state.
You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win.
Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker.
The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though.
Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles.
Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model.
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
-Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right?
In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use.
Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know.
not sure if your post is serious or just a troll or just a lack of knowledge.
ghosts don't emp infestors well because infestors are fat. Also, a missed emp will mean a fungal on your clump of ghosts, and fungalled ghosts are easy kills. Snipe is apm intensive and ghosts are near worthless against every other zerg unit. Trying to snipe while a hoard of banelings rolls towards your infantry line is suicide. Nukes? lol, ok man, whatever ...
Ravens are expensive. And PDD? are you serious? What early game unit will PDD work against for a timing attack? Unless a zerg is making hydras, you can't make ravens for a PDD timing attackl. Auto turrets are bad, real bad. Upgraded lings will chew through them. If the zerg doesn't upgrade, turrets may be viable. Mainly, turrets are better used as a "blocker" to soak damage. And seeker in mineral lines? lol, maybe if you want to kill like 3 drones. The only use for seeker is to kill infestors since one seeker can one-shot an infestor. But again, this is risky. One fungal and your ravens are dead.
You should at least try playing Terran before offering advice. I am seriously questioning how much knowledge you have about this ....
Am I the only person who sees a direct parallel between Zergs telling Terrans to use Ravens/Ghosts to solve every problem and the old "use Nydus Worms" response that Protoss players used to give Zerg before Infestor/BL was discovered/viable/popular? I'd imagine that this sort of rhetoric will go the same way. Nydus Worms weren't viable, and neither is an early Raven for Creep duty.
On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote: One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little?
I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build.
Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either.
I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though
thats what artosis mentioned some days ago. T just should use one scan if they go fast 3rd OC to see what zerg is up to. this combined with 1 helion checking for 3rd base and T is able to easily identify if there is an roach ling bling all in incoming. AND not only will T be able to check for all ins, they would also be able to see if zerg is greedy and take their 3rd themselves.
T just need time to identify roach ling bling all ins (mass bunker) or supergreedy builds like 6 queen builds and take 3rd themselves.
EPT
