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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 27 2012 17:53 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 17:39 cydial wrote:On June 27 2012 17:27 Zarahtra wrote:On June 27 2012 17:13 cydial wrote:
Exploring mech openings, exploring SK mass mass marine medivac, raven style, etc etc. There's still hope!
I mean, we all stopped bitching about protoss for the most part didn't we? Yep, because a late game protoss is believe it or not, BEATABLE. If you play more actively with scans, vikings, ghosts, before you engage, and when you do engage you send marauders first before marines ( I can't even fucking believe how many pros still just ball a move and get their marines instantly murked by splash). The only real reason the bitching of TvP has stopped is because TvZ is in like 10x times worse shape. In TvP there is atleast a window where you can win or get far enough ahead to be even. The problem with your statement is, should terran have to always play perfectly to win, if zerg/toss don't have to? Players can still improve a ton, don't get me wrong, but that can be said about all players. Terran shouldn't just suck until players start coming close to the skill ceiling. PS. Sadly most builds have simply been tried and tested. If there is going to be some silver bullet, it will be a build that has been tested extensively already(as such, I dare you find a unit combo that hasn't been played around with). I'm not here to talk about what the game should be like, I'm terran and I feel that protoss and zerg can a-move with impunity while terran can't ever do such a thing because of storm, banelings, fungal, etc. What the game is like is Terran needs to micro fucking amazing against splash or an a moving chargelot / ling ultra army. However, if Terran does play perfect with their micro, then what can the opposing race really do? Terran skill is more like exponential decay and zerg/protoss are linear. It gets to a point that no amount of micro on the zerg or protoss side can over come the vastly more microable terran units. When terrans get better at microing and controlling their units, zergs and protosses get buffed by Blizzard on a numbers level. It's a fundamental flaw in the game which keeps happening because P/Z are more limited in what player skill can allow for compared to terran because of the shitty design of the races, and it screws the ladder up every single time it happens while the pro players keep adjusting to it by practicing more and more. At some point Blizzard needs to stop focusing at making the game statistically balanced and rework their design to allow P/Z to be more micro and skill friendly than they are now.
Blizzard has stated that their intensions with the new mech units is to make Terran a little easier.
On topic, I would have loved to see how the overlord speed buff would have worked out without the queen buff. I wonder if that would have been enough to give zergs their much needed scouting information.
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On June 27 2012 18:06 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 17:53 Dalavita wrote:On June 27 2012 17:39 cydial wrote:On June 27 2012 17:27 Zarahtra wrote:On June 27 2012 17:13 cydial wrote:
Exploring mech openings, exploring SK mass mass marine medivac, raven style, etc etc. There's still hope!
I mean, we all stopped bitching about protoss for the most part didn't we? Yep, because a late game protoss is believe it or not, BEATABLE. If you play more actively with scans, vikings, ghosts, before you engage, and when you do engage you send marauders first before marines ( I can't even fucking believe how many pros still just ball a move and get their marines instantly murked by splash). The only real reason the bitching of TvP has stopped is because TvZ is in like 10x times worse shape. In TvP there is atleast a window where you can win or get far enough ahead to be even. The problem with your statement is, should terran have to always play perfectly to win, if zerg/toss don't have to? Players can still improve a ton, don't get me wrong, but that can be said about all players. Terran shouldn't just suck until players start coming close to the skill ceiling. PS. Sadly most builds have simply been tried and tested. If there is going to be some silver bullet, it will be a build that has been tested extensively already(as such, I dare you find a unit combo that hasn't been played around with). I'm not here to talk about what the game should be like, I'm terran and I feel that protoss and zerg can a-move with impunity while terran can't ever do such a thing because of storm, banelings, fungal, etc. What the game is like is Terran needs to micro fucking amazing against splash or an a moving chargelot / ling ultra army. However, if Terran does play perfect with their micro, then what can the opposing race really do? Terran skill is more like exponential decay and zerg/protoss are linear. It gets to a point that no amount of micro on the zerg or protoss side can over come the vastly more microable terran units. When terrans get better at microing and controlling their units, zergs and protosses get buffed by Blizzard on a numbers level. It's a fundamental flaw in the game which keeps happening because P/Z are more limited in what player skill can allow for compared to terran because of the shitty design of the races, and it screws the ladder up every single time it happens while the pro players keep adjusting to it by practicing more and more. At some point Blizzard needs to stop focusing at making the game statistically balanced and rework their design to allow P/Z to be more micro and skill friendly than they are now. Blizzard has stated that their intensions with the new mech units is to make Terran a little easier. On topic, I would have loved to see how the overlord speed buff would have worked out without the queen buff. I wonder if that would have been enough to give zergs their much needed scouting information.
I know, and it's depressing. I think it's completely the wrong approach. SC2 is supposed to be a game where massive amounts of skill are required and people at the top level play in a way that is unimaginable. What's the point in making terran require less skill instead of making everything else require more.
OT: I don't think anyone could have argued that the OL change by itself would have solved most of the "unscoutable" cheese terrans could throw at zergs. Queen buff shook up the entire metagame for no reason.
Anyway, I feel like i'm repeating myself. I think I'm done with the thread for now.
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Just a little food for thoughts:
A pre nerf Ghost could do 8*45=360 dmg
Now it does 8*25=200 dmg
A queen can heal 4*125=500 hp
There is quite some late game potential for the queen especially considering that the heal per second with a few queens is practically unlimited. With correct micro zerg T3 with queen support will just never die.
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The problem is simple.
1. Terran has a lot of early game tactics to kill zerg
2. Zerg tries to macro to end-game because tier 3 zerg units are much better than tier 3 terran units
3. Queen buff removes Terran early game tactics
4. Zerg macros like crazy
Queen
150 minerals
2 supply
ground + air attack
no larva cost
can transfuse, inject, lay creep
6 zerglings
150 minerals
3 supply
ground only
3 larva cost
If I'm playing defensively, I would rather build a queen any day. 6 zerglings can't apply any pressure anyway, and 6 zerglings wastes 3 larva and more supply.
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At least when you beat a zerg now they will type "GG" because they know that they are op.
Also, GLHF instead of "F* you TERRAN!"
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Queens taking up supply that why its not op? They can just sac them later similar to T sac-ing scvs and z is always on surplus of minerals at end game (easily remake Queens if needed).
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On June 27 2012 20:06 bhfberserk wrote:
At least when you beat a zerg now they will type "GG" because they know that they are op.
Also, GLHF instead of "F* you TERRAN!"
Nope. I still have Z players who complain about Terran.
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On June 27 2012 15:14 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 15:06 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 15:03 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 14:22 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 14:08 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 12:19 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 12:14 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 06:19 Dalavita wrote:
I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance. I see two ways out of this situation, actually. 1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again. 2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up. Zerg will never have an incentive to produce less queens. Why would you get less of something that: 1) Doesn't use larva 2) Serves as a replacement for spine crawlers, thereby saving a drone 3) Facilitates the spread of creep 4) Counters any early game aggression with ease 5) Provides Anti Air 6) Has the transfuse ability that can be used on units/spines for any excess queens that accrue energy because they can't attack off creep and they take up 2 supply? They are not the be-all-end-all of Zerg units. Yes, there is great incentive to build lots early game. But there are plenty of reasons to NOT spend 150 minerals on a 2 supply unit that you cannot (reasonably) bring to your opponent's base (early game). Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out. Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race. Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong. If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all. What do you add to the conversation by stating this? He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively. DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races. It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts. In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing. As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you. Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens.
Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings.
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On June 27 2012 20:12 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 15:14 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 15:06 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 15:03 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 14:22 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 14:08 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 12:19 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 12:14 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 06:19 Dalavita wrote:
I don't think any of the terrans will switch to be honest. They'll keep grinding the game in the hopes of finding something new.
Regardless of what they'll find, if they'll discover some endgame composition that works against the endgame of the zerg or whatnot doesn't change the fact that Blizzard hamhandedly broke the earlygame of TvZ, a matchup that was considered balanced.
Edit: Statistics aside. The matchup is less fun than it was before. Who would want to turtle on their ass for 10+ minutes before anything happened? What is the point in those first ten minutes if nothing important happens...
If terrans discovered that turtling on 4 base until BC/Ravens was successful, the earlygame of TvZ would still be broken, regardless of statistical balance. I see two ways out of this situation, actually. 1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again. 2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up. Zerg will never have an incentive to produce less queens. Why would you get less of something that: 1) Doesn't use larva 2) Serves as a replacement for spine crawlers, thereby saving a drone 3) Facilitates the spread of creep 4) Counters any early game aggression with ease 5) Provides Anti Air 6) Has the transfuse ability that can be used on units/spines for any excess queens that accrue energy because they can't attack off creep and they take up 2 supply? They are not the be-all-end-all of Zerg units. Yes, there is great incentive to build lots early game. But there are plenty of reasons to NOT spend 150 minerals on a 2 supply unit that you cannot (reasonably) bring to your opponent's base (early game). Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out. Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race. Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong. If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all. What do you add to the conversation by stating this? He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively. DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races. It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts. In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing. As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you. Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens. Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings.
why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway.
1) Queens don't use any larva
2) it provides both ground and air defense
3) transfuse is a great ability.
And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game.
Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro.
You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units
I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units
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On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions.
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On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions.
Maybe off-racing , changing races and collecting wins with Zerg is easier than finding a solution because there ain't one that really works consistently ? Its not like there's stuff out there that hasn't been tried. Most of the stuff there is only works if you know how you opponent likes to play and you prepare especially for one player.
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On June 27 2012 20:36 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions. Maybe off-racing , changing races and collecting wins with Zerg is easier than finding a solution because there ain't one that really works consistently ? Its not like there's stuff out there that hasn't been tried. Most of the stuff there is only works if you know how you opponent likes to play and you prepare especially for one player.
Professionals that shy away from challenges like that don't tend to end up very successful.
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On June 27 2012 20:42 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:36 s3rp wrote:On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions. Maybe off-racing , changing races and collecting wins with Zerg is easier than finding a solution because there ain't one that really works consistently ? Its not like there's stuff out there that hasn't been tried. Most of the stuff there is only works if you know how you opponent likes to play and you prepare especially for one player. Professionals that shy away from challenges like that don't tend to end up very successful.
That statement is conjecture and wishful thinking.
A "smart" player will use every advantage he can get to win. See what I did there?
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On June 27 2012 20:36 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions. Maybe off-racing , changing races and collecting wins with Zerg is easier than finding a solution because there ain't one that really works consistently ? Its not like there's stuff out there that hasn't been tried. Most of the stuff there is only works if you know how you opponent likes to play and you prepare especially for one player.
I would love to see demuslim make the shift.. Morrow and TLO comes to mind as players who had a massive decrease in success in shifting from Terran to Zerg.
Seriously, demuslim have whined about balance since beta. He is not a fair example of a type that never QQ's ..
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On June 27 2012 20:24 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:12 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 15:14 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 15:06 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 15:03 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 14:22 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 14:08 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 12:19 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 12:14 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 06:35 Meff wrote:
[quote]
I see two ways out of this situation, actually.
1) a T build gets developed that takes advantage of the lack of threats from Z in the early game. Everybody starts doing that, the metagame shifts, and Z eventually start cutting corners by getting less queens (because they don't give them an auto-win since aggression isn't that common anymore). At this point, pressure builds, threats and feints become viable again.
2) no such build gets discovered and Blizzard patches this up. Zerg will never have an incentive to produce less queens. Why would you get less of something that: 1) Doesn't use larva 2) Serves as a replacement for spine crawlers, thereby saving a drone 3) Facilitates the spread of creep 4) Counters any early game aggression with ease 5) Provides Anti Air 6) Has the transfuse ability that can be used on units/spines for any excess queens that accrue energy because they can't attack off creep and they take up 2 supply? They are not the be-all-end-all of Zerg units. Yes, there is great incentive to build lots early game. But there are plenty of reasons to NOT spend 150 minerals on a 2 supply unit that you cannot (reasonably) bring to your opponent's base (early game). Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out. Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race. Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong. If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all. What do you add to the conversation by stating this? He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively. DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races. It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts. In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing. As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you. Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens. Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings. why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway. 1) Queens don't use any larva 2) it provides both ground and air defense 3) transfuse is a great ability. And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game. Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro. You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units
1) not making queens uses even less larvae than queens ("not using larvae" is a reasoning that only matters when you do need units).
2) defense is pointless if it comes at a point of the game where the opponent doesn't plan to attack
3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse.
At most, I could accept as a valid point superior creep spread, because that's something that has utility independently of what the opponent does.
Somebody mentioned, earlier in the thread, that Bomber is experimenting with ghosts+BCs and that this composition seems to work in the lategame, but that his current problem is that you can't safely tech to that on maps that aren't good for turtling. I'm willing to bet that the T lategame doesn't turn out as bad as people currently think that it is, if a few progamers spend a couple months designing gameplans that focus on it.
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On June 27 2012 20:46 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:42 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 20:36 s3rp wrote:On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions. Maybe off-racing , changing races and collecting wins with Zerg is easier than finding a solution because there ain't one that really works consistently ? Its not like there's stuff out there that hasn't been tried. Most of the stuff there is only works if you know how you opponent likes to play and you prepare especially for one player. Professionals that shy away from challenges like that don't tend to end up very successful. That statement is conjecture and wishful thinking. A "smart" player will use every advantage he can get to win. See what I did there?
Alright, they should all switch to Zerg and automatically win everything.
Except they wouldn't, because Zerg now, is no stronger than Terran has been for most of the history of SC2 and the players most foreign Terrans never won much during that period anyway.
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On June 27 2012 20:51 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:24 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 20:12 Meff wrote:On June 27 2012 15:14 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 15:06 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 15:03 zmansman17 wrote:On June 27 2012 14:22 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 14:08 Starshaped wrote:On June 27 2012 12:19 worldsnap wrote:On June 27 2012 12:14 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
Zerg will never have an incentive to produce less queens. Why would you get less of something that:
1) Doesn't use larva
2) Serves as a replacement for spine crawlers, thereby saving a drone
3) Facilitates the spread of creep
4) Counters any early game aggression with ease
5) Provides Anti Air
6) Has the transfuse ability that can be used on units/spines for any excess queens that accrue energy
because they can't attack off creep and they take up 2 supply? They are not the be-all-end-all of Zerg units. Yes, there is great incentive to build lots early game. But there are plenty of reasons to NOT spend 150 minerals on a 2 supply unit that you cannot (reasonably) bring to your opponent's base (early game). Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out. Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race. Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong. If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all. What do you add to the conversation by stating this? He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively. DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races. It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts. In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing. As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you. Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens. Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings. why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway. 1) Queens don't use any larva 2) it provides both ground and air defense 3) transfuse is a great ability. And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game. Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro. You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units 1) not making queens uses even less larvae than queens ("not using larvae" is a reasoning that only matters when you do need units). 2) defense is pointless if it comes at a point of the game where the opponent doesn't plan to attack 3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse. At most, I could accept as a valid point superior creep spread, because that's something that has utility independently of what the opponent does. Somebody mentioned, earlier in the thread, that Bomber is experimenting with ghosts+BCs and that this composition seems to work in the lategame, but that his current problem is that you can't safely tech to that on maps that aren't good for turtling. I'm willing to bet that the T lategame doesn't turn out as bad as people currently think that it is, if a few progamers spend a couple months designing gameplans that focus on it.
Why are you not using transfuse? A queen with full energy is a queen with 675 health. And you should have too much minerals to spend anyway, and not enough larva to use it all. No one is saying "make 1000 queens", people are saying make 3 queens, take an early third, and supplement your army as needed depending on army composition. You can't go wrong with making queens because they are a solid unit and lets you take a quick 3rd for fast teching.
and fast teching = fast tier 3 = butt pained terran
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On June 27 2012 20:51 Meff wrote:
3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse.
Then zerg takes these extra queens and uses them as support for the roach/bling/ling/festor/bl push he does once he is comfy with the 3 bases and the tech he has.
Each queen can facetank 5 siege tanks shots to the face, even more with transfuse They are also great at sniping medivacs and vikings.
You can see Stephano do it vs BeastyQT on Antiga in recent TSL4 qualifier. He walks his army into entrenched position between BestyQT's nat and third and stays there, picking off siege tanks, medivacs and bio alike.
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On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions.
Why is this the argument when Terrans have problems, but when players struggle against Terran strategies, Blizzard nerfs them. Why couldn't Zerg and Protoss players "try harder" against BBS or mass Reaper vZ or Thor-mech vP or 11/11 Rax or Blue Flame Hellions or Ghosts vZ. Because throughout StarCraft's history, all of those were potent strategies at one point that have since become completely worthless. Maybe instead of having Blizzard nerf these strategies, the Zergs and Protoss players should have just tried harder.
Do you see how ridiculous, stupid, and hypocritical of an argument "try harder" is for any race to make, especially Zerg or Protoss?
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On June 27 2012 20:55 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 20:46 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 20:42 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 20:36 s3rp wrote:On June 27 2012 20:29 avc wrote:On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote:
I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions. Maybe off-racing , changing races and collecting wins with Zerg is easier than finding a solution because there ain't one that really works consistently ? Its not like there's stuff out there that hasn't been tried. Most of the stuff there is only works if you know how you opponent likes to play and you prepare especially for one player. Professionals that shy away from challenges like that don't tend to end up very successful. That statement is conjecture and wishful thinking. A "smart" player will use every advantage he can get to win. See what I did there? Alright, they should all switch to Zerg and automatically win everything. Except they wouldn't, because Zerg now, is no stronger than Terran has been for most of the history of SC2 and the players most foreign Terrans never won much during that period anyway.
I don't get what your reasoning is. Let's take a look at your statements.
"Alright, they should all switch to Zerg and automatically win everything."
This is hearsay and is pointless in a debate. If you are going to debate, at least keep to the facts. Terrans are having a difficult time early game with zerg due to queen buff, and Terran late game units suck.
Your 2nd statement is interesting. Basically, you are sayings:
1) Terrans were strong before
2) So it's ok for zerg to be strong now
However, I make the point that zergs were always strong if they can get to their end-game units. The zerg buff was an early game buff that prevented early game harass. Zerg end-game units haven't changed.
Let's take a step back and see what statements everyone here can agree on. I don't care about the queen debate. Let's take a step back and try to analyze the current metagame between TvZ.
1. Zergs have good end-game units
2. Zergs want to survive to end-game to get Tier 3 tech
3. Terrans have bad end-game units
4. Terrans want to kill zergs before zergs get to Tier 3 tech
do you agree with those statements?
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EPT
