This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
1. only applies when the expansion is already here. Until then, it's a no point. SC2 might have new ideas coming in, but the scene is established, the best players are established and the metagame is established, and we can use history and experience to be able to analyze current situations and changes better. Back then none of these factors were present.
2. I'm sure you enjoy the matchup, and I might as well if I played zerg. However I don't think it's unfair to say that the matchup is worse off because of the change, and considering what we gained with the change (zergs have to try less hard to defend against hellions I guess?) to a previously balanced matchup and what we had to give up to get it. I didn't mind all the trillion bunker nerfs that terrans got even though Blizzard might have gone overboard in combination with larger maps, because they made the matchup better overall. This change? No positive change whatsoever. I don't think I'm the only one feeling this way, since there hasn't been this much of an uproar over a change since ever, and the uproar is cross race.
3. Whether it was wrong or not, it was generally considered that zergs had the super lategame going for them even back then due to the larva mechanics. They did have something to look forward too when they worked at surviving. At the moment as a terran, your thought process is basically "oh, I didn't cripple him the first ten minutes, it's time to slowly die unless he goes full retard."
1. This makes no sense to me. That's like saying in the early days that we can't hope for new improvements until they actually release them? Lol. We already know 2 expansions are coming out, simple as that. You know 100% that there will be massive metagame shifts and unit composition changes, what is there to argue? My point is that it's NOT THAT BAD. Now you just enter into mid and lategame without easily being able to gain an advantage unless you do something clever, you can't simply do the exact same cookie-cutter build every game and have a very high chance of crippling your opponent...back in the early days Zergs had to worry about simply dying in the first 10 minutes of every single game...just let that sink in for a moment as you reflect upon how bad you guys have it now, lawl. Also, I'm still not convinced that Terrans simply don't require more build changes and strategy improvement, Terrans have been crying about this change since the day it came out and I really think that 90% of the people complaining have done hardly a thing to try and change their own play up in compensation. The only reason you see a difference between Terran complaints now and past Zerg complaints is because you are very, very biased.
2. Maybe you think there is no positives but I see plenty. For one, Zergs typically aren't dying nearly as often because one of their Queens was out of position by a quarter of an inch allowing Hellions to run by a gap the Zerg thought was covered. Secondly, ZvZ is greatly improved and a hell of a lot more fun now as well.
3. Actually Zergs still died all the time in the super late game vs Protoss and Terrans...so, your opinion is simply that, your opinion. Also, you seem to still think that Zerg has an advantage over Zerg in the late game but I really doubt that, Terrans can play late game just fine if they utilize their units properly and play it out right. I still almost never see Terrans build Ghosts, yet the few that do always make me happy to play against because their late game is 3x as hard to fight as a scrub Terran who refuses to build them even once.
Beenu, You are obviously "very, very biased" yourself. Simply saying "Terran's need to evolve" and "use their units properly" does not get rid of the pink elephant in the room. Want to talk about bias? Morrow (Pro Zerg and Terran) player, believes they are too powerful and the buff was unnecessary. As a former GM, I would hope you take some advice when i say there is only so much you can do mechanically when a zerg queens up to 5-7 queens, turtles then takes a substantial eco advantage. It becomes a all-in coin flip for Terran. I suggest you watch some of these interviews and read some legitmate Pro threads before you throw your, less experienced, two sense in.
Watch around 5:30
Kawaii rice interview
blah blah blah, yawn. I'm not really biased much at all really, I understand Terrans are having a tough time and for some players that may be a legitimate concern, no argument here. Whether or not the buff was "necessary" or not is still irrelevant, it exists simple as that so you need to learn to deal with it until either the problem goes away with metagame changes or blizzard makes changes. But no, most Terrans seem to prefer to just weep and cry about Queens and then use that opportunity to start crying about Infestors all over again [rooooooofl] and quite frankly, when people keep crying about Infestors they just lose all credibility with me. It's hard not to generalize, but this thread makes me think Terrans just wanna cry for the sake of crying when they can't even stay on-topic for what they want to cry about in the first place.
A lot of Terran's are not whining...they're just switching to zerg LOL. Why not, its arguably the most powerful race. I was just watching the ogs4gg stream. He just lost to DeMuslim who is offracing as zerg! DeMuslim, like he mentions in his interview criticizing the riduclous buff, just started playing zerg and made mass queendralisks on 3base...GG to 4GG helions and banshee push! Awesome. So to answer your question, we dont whine, I just hope Blizzard is satisfied when they have a notoriously low level of Terran players on ladder.
Ya, Terrans are just spoiled. For once they get the shaft an they act more butthurt than I could have imagined possible, it's cute. The sense of entitlement Terrans have is quite stunning, but typical.
On June 27 2012 17:45 lightertripod wrote: I am sure I am not good enough at the game understand it well enough to comment on balance.
but I will say when you see as many pro Terran streamers offracing a lot atm it points to there being a real issue players I have never seen offrace at all and some I have never seen QQ either.
it was actaully funny to watch demuslim offrace zerg and beat forgg with relative ease while not playing very well by his own reconition with a race he has very little practical use with.
Perhaps if they tried harder they would find solutions.
Why is this the argument when Terrans have problems, but when players struggle against Terran strategies, Blizzard nerfs them. Why couldn't Zerg and Protoss players "try harder" against BBS or mass Reaper vZ or Thor-mech vP or 11/11 Rax or Blue Flame Hellions or Ghosts vZ. Because throughout StarCraft's history, all of those were potent strategies at one point that have since become completely worthless. Maybe instead of having Blizzard nerf these strategies, the Zergs and Protoss players should have just tried harder.
Do you see how ridiculous, stupid, and hypocritical of an argument "try harder" is for any race to make, especially Zerg or Protoss?
You are a wise man, my friend.
It's always Terran who has to "try harder". Every innovative strategy gets shut down through nerfs which turns Terran game style into routine/dull and standard play.
After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
Yeah those Queens man, amazing difference they made to that game, can really see it.
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
Yeah those Queens man, amazing difference they made to that game, can really see it.
You do realize the queens had nothing to do with it right? Its the fact that because the queens were buffed zergs can actually spread creep which is the problem. I wouldn't expect you to realize that though.
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
I feel Taeja stayed on MMM for too long. Granted, Taeja probably could've taken the match if he either kept his whole army together or went for the flank when it was set up, but I feel there needs to be something more than MMM once Zerg hits lategame tech.
I really liked Taeja's MM+Hellion then MMM+Tank, but Tanks are very poor vs Ultras.
even if it doesnt look like the queens make a big difference in some one game they always do, the aknowledgement of queens range has already made the change that terrans have to modify starting bo's accordingly, zerg gets huge and easy economy fast to produce massive amount of any units > easy win, you dont even need to make imbastors, just anything ..
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
Yeah those Queens man, amazing difference they made to that game, can really see it.
You do realize the queens had nothing to do with it right? Its the fact that because the queens were buffed zergs can actually spread creep which is the problem. I wouldn't expect you to realize that though.
You do realise that this is a discussion thread centred around the Queen buff right?
Creep spread wasn't particularly good in that game either.
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
Yeah those Queens man, amazing difference they made to that game, can really see it.
You do realize the queens had nothing to do with it right? Its the fact that because the queens were buffed zergs can actually spread creep which is the problem. I wouldn't expect you to realize that though.
You do realise that this is a discussion thread centred around the Queen buff right?
Creep spread wasn't particularly good in that game either.
Do you realize that this thread is about how ridiculously imba zerg is? :D
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
Yeah those Queens man, amazing difference they made to that game, can really see it.
You do realize the queens had nothing to do with it right? Its the fact that because the queens were buffed zergs can actually spread creep which is the problem. I wouldn't expect you to realize that though.
You do realise that this is a discussion thread centred around the Queen buff right?
Creep spread wasn't particularly good in that game either.
It was good enough to fend off any pressure with minimal effort though. The biggest problem in TvZ is Creep . It spreads too fast and goes away too slow. You kill 10 tumors and nothing changes with the speed of creep going away , you spread 10 and it spreads like crazy.
Either nerf the speed of creepspread or buff the speed of removing creep
On June 27 2012 21:57 Tippecanoe wrote: After watching violet just beat taeja even though he made a million mistakes had 2k 2k with 160 supply while taejas macro was perfect and was up 20 supply, and still win the game. I can honestly say this mu is a joke.
Yeah those Queens man, amazing difference they made to that game, can really see it.
You do realize the queens had nothing to do with it right? Its the fact that because the queens were buffed zergs can actually spread creep which is the problem. I wouldn't expect you to realize that though.
You do realise that this is a discussion thread centred around the Queen buff right?
Creep spread wasn't particularly good in that game either.
Yeah. Like i said the queen buff correlates to more creep spread which is the real problem. Last time i checked queens made creep tumors.
Not going to continue this with you because you obviously don't know anything.
because they can't attack off creep and they take up 2 supply? They are not the be-all-end-all of Zerg units. Yes, there is great incentive to build lots early game. But there are plenty of reasons to NOT spend 150 minerals on a 2 supply unit that you cannot (reasonably) bring to your opponent's base (early game).
Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out.
Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race.
Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong.
If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all.
What do you add to the conversation by stating this?
He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively.
DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races.
It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts.
In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing.
As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you.
Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens.
Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings.
why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway. 1) Queens don't use any larva 2) it provides both ground and air defense 3) transfuse is a great ability.
And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game.
Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro. You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units
I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units
1) not making queens uses even less larvae than queens ("not using larvae" is a reasoning that only matters when you do need units). 2) defense is pointless if it comes at a point of the game where the opponent doesn't plan to attack 3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse.
At most, I could accept as a valid point superior creep spread, because that's something that has utility independently of what the opponent does.
Somebody mentioned, earlier in the thread, that Bomber is experimenting with ghosts+BCs and that this composition seems to work in the lategame, but that his current problem is that you can't safely tech to that on maps that aren't good for turtling. I'm willing to bet that the T lategame doesn't turn out as bad as people currently think that it is, if a few progamers spend a couple months designing gameplans that focus on it.
Why are you not using transfuse? A queen with full energy is a queen with 675 health. And you should have too much minerals to spend anyway, and not enough larva to use it all. No one is saying "make 1000 queens", people are saying make 3 queens, take an early third, and supplement your army as needed depending on army composition. You can't go wrong with making queens because they are a solid unit and lets you take a quick 3rd for fast teching.
and fast teching = fast tier 3 = butt pained terran
I don't know if I'm not explaining what I mean properly or not, but the idea is: you need those three extra queens (getting to a total of 6) to defend the third only if T goes for pressure builds. Against a greedy build, it would arguably be better to tech faster. If you really do want extra queens for transfusing lategame armies and don't have to defend early game aggression, then it makes more sense to build them in the midgame (where spending minerals delays you less) than at the start of the game.
In the current situation where T is still stuck on a "must apply pressure in the early game" mindset, you can indeed build queens blindly and be sure that they'll be a good investment. Give T time to either figure out hyper-greedy builds and a suitable lategame composition or to polish two-base all-ins that don't really care for queens and that will change, though.
Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out.
Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race.
Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong.
If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all.
What do you add to the conversation by stating this?
He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively.
DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races.
It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts.
In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing.
As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you.
Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens.
Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings.
why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway. 1) Queens don't use any larva 2) it provides both ground and air defense 3) transfuse is a great ability.
And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game.
Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro. You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units
I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units
1) not making queens uses even less larvae than queens ("not using larvae" is a reasoning that only matters when you do need units). 2) defense is pointless if it comes at a point of the game where the opponent doesn't plan to attack 3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse.
At most, I could accept as a valid point superior creep spread, because that's something that has utility independently of what the opponent does.
Somebody mentioned, earlier in the thread, that Bomber is experimenting with ghosts+BCs and that this composition seems to work in the lategame, but that his current problem is that you can't safely tech to that on maps that aren't good for turtling. I'm willing to bet that the T lategame doesn't turn out as bad as people currently think that it is, if a few progamers spend a couple months designing gameplans that focus on it.
Why are you not using transfuse? A queen with full energy is a queen with 675 health. And you should have too much minerals to spend anyway, and not enough larva to use it all. No one is saying "make 1000 queens", people are saying make 3 queens, take an early third, and supplement your army as needed depending on army composition. You can't go wrong with making queens because they are a solid unit and lets you take a quick 3rd for fast teching.
and fast teching = fast tier 3 = butt pained terran
I don't know if I'm not explaining what I mean properly or not, but the idea is: you need those three extra queens (getting to a total of 6) to defend the third only if T goes for pressure builds. Against a greedy build, it would arguably be better to tech faster. If you really do want extra queens for transfusing lategame armies and don't have to defend early game aggression, then it makes more sense to build them in the midgame (where spending minerals delays you less) than at the start of the game.
In the current situation where T is still stuck on a "must apply pressure in the early game" mindset, you can indeed build queens blindly and be sure that they'll be a good investment. Give T time to either figure out hyper-greedy builds and a suitable lategame composition or to polish two-base all-ins that don't really care for queens and that will change, though.
It's not like there is an alternative, two equally skilled players in the late game terran should never win. Blizzard said it themselves.
Also 6 queens will always be good because creep, transfuse, and more dps for the medivacs is pretty good.
Considering the creep spread will cover 90% of the map by the 10 minute mark, the "can't attack off creep" argument is invalid. Further, they are amazing in lategame broodlord/infestor army compositions as they can endlessly transfuse broodlords during fights. I remember a hilarious TvZ of Demuslim vs some guy called Ftizyhere (NA Zerg) where Demuslim was focusing down one single broodlord with every viking he had for an entire fight and it kept getting transfused, meanwhile Demuslim lost his entire army to fungal/broodlord and tapped out.
Queens are just way too versatile a unit, and so is the infestor. I can't see why the race with the best macro and best remax capabilities needs these ridiculous units that are always useful in any situation. What was once the "good econ but cost-inefficient armies" race has become the "out-of-this-world econ and most cost-effective army in the game" race.
Edit: Off-topic, but the guy who said mech TvT isn't viable is just plain wrong.
If you're just going to talk in ridiculous hyperbole then there's no point in have a discussion at all.
What do you add to the conversation by stating this?
He made some excellent points, none of which you addressed substantively.
DeMuslim is actually starting to play Zerg for fun and I recall him on his stream saying he beat Ogsforgg and Idra. Thorzain also beat Idra offracing as Zerg. I think if this continues, we will just see a mass exodus from Terran to Zerg or Protoss. I was rank 1 master Terran last season, only rank 5 master this season and working my butt off. Strangely, however I easily maintained my Rank 2 Protoss (900 points) and top 8 master zerg. Whats wrong with this? I barely play the other races.
It would help if you actually read what I was responding to in the first place, which his wall of text ALSO didn't address: someone said that there was no reason not to make queens, and i gave a reason. That's it. Early game, you can't use them to attack and they take up supply. Not saying queens are shitty. Not saying they are/aren't op. Just that there are reasons not to make them at certain stages of the game. Read. The. Goddam. Posts.
In the early game you run no risk of maxing out, so queens taking up supply is no issue whatsoever. In the early-midgame they are excellent defense and creep-spreaders. In the lategame they are excellent for transfusing.
As someone said, while they might not be good 'attackers' per se, they lead to strong armies in that they defend really cost-efficiently, and they spread creep, so if you attack (or defend) you have a ton of creep to help you.
Tell me again why you would ever not make a lot of queens.
Since I'm the one the question was originally addressed to: I would not build more than one queen per hatchery if I needed to tech up or to build army. With them tying up 175 minerals each (150 per queen plus a fourth of an overlord), three queens act as a significant mineral sink. They delay gas and take resources away from an army that could be used to delay a greedy T third. If you prefer: with mass queens and a third of your own, I'm pretty sure that you have no way to prevent T from double expanding taking the third as a planetary. Once the PF is in place, it won't go away unless Z resorts to hive tech or to obnoxious amounts of arguably inefficient banelings.
why wouldn't you make more queens? Also, I am seriously LOLing at your attempt to add the "mineral supply cost" to queens ... because, wow, seriously? 3 queens is a CHEAP mineral sink, especially since you SHOULD be on 3 bases soon anyway. 1) Queens don't use any larva 2) it provides both ground and air defense 3) transfuse is a great ability.
And who cares if Terran macros? Their late tier units are bad. And building a PF instead of a CC means they will have less mineral income. You should WANT Terrans to macro because Terrans have most of the advantage in the early game.
Terran wants to macro = You are free to macro. You are free to macro = fast Tier 3 zerg units
I want to make this point: If a Terran macros, they are throwing away their early game advantage for crappy late game units
1) not making queens uses even less larvae than queens ("not using larvae" is a reasoning that only matters when you do need units). 2) defense is pointless if it comes at a point of the game where the opponent doesn't plan to attack 3) sure, as long as you're taking damage on something. Once again, if you're not attacked then you don't gain any utility from being able to transfuse.
At most, I could accept as a valid point superior creep spread, because that's something that has utility independently of what the opponent does.
Somebody mentioned, earlier in the thread, that Bomber is experimenting with ghosts+BCs and that this composition seems to work in the lategame, but that his current problem is that you can't safely tech to that on maps that aren't good for turtling. I'm willing to bet that the T lategame doesn't turn out as bad as people currently think that it is, if a few progamers spend a couple months designing gameplans that focus on it.
Why are you not using transfuse? A queen with full energy is a queen with 675 health. And you should have too much minerals to spend anyway, and not enough larva to use it all. No one is saying "make 1000 queens", people are saying make 3 queens, take an early third, and supplement your army as needed depending on army composition. You can't go wrong with making queens because they are a solid unit and lets you take a quick 3rd for fast teching.
and fast teching = fast tier 3 = butt pained terran
I don't know if I'm not explaining what I mean properly or not, but the idea is: you need those three extra queens (getting to a total of 6) to defend the third only if T goes for pressure builds. Against a greedy build, it would arguably be better to tech faster. If you really do want extra queens for transfusing lategame armies and don't have to defend early game aggression, then it makes more sense to build them in the midgame (where spending minerals delays you less) than at the start of the game.
In the current situation where T is still stuck on a "must apply pressure in the early game" mindset, you can indeed build queens blindly and be sure that they'll be a good investment. Give T time to either figure out hyper-greedy builds and a suitable lategame composition or to polish two-base all-ins that don't really care for queens and that will change, though.
Terran goes for hyper greedy build, zerg switchs into a 2 base all-in and rolls over the armyless Terran.. GG Terran goes for pressure build, and zerg macros up unmolested and rolls over terran late game.. GG
On June 27 2012 22:33 avc wrote: You guys have been warned so much about not relevant balance whine, I don't know how this thread is still going.
Maybe they know that if this one is locked another five will spring up!
Queens alone did not do what is currently happening. Queens are not suddenly some unstoppable force with 5 range. You give them too much respect.
That 5 range did stop early game Terran pressure, so that is part of the problem. But mostly I would say it is this new style of getting 6 queens and spreading creep like mad, which Terran cannot effectivly kill off, because 5 range queens defending tumors, and 3 queens just putting 2-3 tumors down for every 1 Terran kills. But that comes back to the queen buff, because zergs were not smart enough to experiment with their race while the MU was 50/50, so we have no idea wether this style of zerg play would be as OP as it is now, because zergs did not do this 6 queen stuff pre-buff, because zergs dont experiment, they just QQ like Idra for buffs.
On June 27 2012 22:33 avc wrote: You guys have been warned so much about not relevant balance whine, I don't know how this thread is still going.
Maybe they know that if this one is locked another five will spring up!
Queens alone did not do what is currently happening. Queens are not suddenly some unstoppable force with 5 range. You give them too much respect.
It's because it allows zergs to be as greedy as they want without any fear. There are no mind games a zerg has to worry about anymore and it basically makes it so you're ahead from the second you 15 hatch because there is no way to kill drones anymore.
It's not literally the new queen that is broken. By that I mean, we aren't seeing terrans die to queen builds or something. It's the effect they have on the game, the fact that you can basically do absolutely whatever you want as a zerg player without any fear or worry.
Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter.
EPT
