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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 25 2012 15:32 lorkac wrote:
Is a cloaked ghost too ineffective to attempt?
A cloaked banshee costs 500g (banshee+cloak+factory+starport)
2 cloaked ghosts costs 450g (ghost, ghost, academy, cloak)
Just theorycrafting because Im running out of ideas.
At my level (plat) the patch has no effect due to low level play on both sides. A Zerg player can usually expand at 6min at plat without the queen buff--but watching some recent tvz games, makes me wonder if anyone has tested that extensively and (more specifically) if they could share their findings here?
Actually I think that in the current metagame ghosts should be used once again (not as early harass tho, well perhaps).
Now terrans never use ghosts anymore, so zergs don't prepare at all against ghosts. I'm sure terrans could grab a few wins just by making 5-6 ghosts, cloaking and sniping/emp'ing infestors. I don't know if it viable long term, but in the current state of the TvZ I can observe, it would work decently I think. But as it would work mostly because zerg doesn't have any detection, I'm not sure it's stable.
+ Show Spoiler [Today's GSL] +Today MVP on whirlwind would have won if he replaced 3 thors with the equivalent resources in ghosts when violet pushed in his main with a relatively small army. Emp'ing the infestors would have won the game I think.
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On June 28 2012 00:16 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:10 RaiZ wrote:On June 27 2012 23:54 scypio wrote:On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote:
See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place.
-Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts.
Yeah, Blizzard did not approve ghosts deciding the end-game but somehow approves infestors doing just the same. And a number of ghost weaknesses were listed before in this thread: - cloak ability gets negated by infestor's fungal ability - fungal + lings / infested terrans kill ghosts at range 11 (9 fg range + 2 radius) vs snipe range 10. - you need one fungal to fetch yourself a number of ghosts while it takes two snipes to kill a single infestor - you can't count on landing an EMP on many festors since they are so big It all comes down to this: ghosts suck vs infestors. They are supposed to counter infestors, but in fact infestors do a better job at countering ghosts themselves. That's why ghosts went extinct in TvZ and I can't see them coming back (apart from nuke harass, but it's just as important as getting 5 reapers at 30 minutes into the game to do the same). Ghost sux vs infestors... Wait what ? Are you serious ? They always been the dark nemesis for infestors. But you're right, we have overseer everywhere, we all know where all your ghost are, it's easy to FG them before they even snipe us, according our perfect knowledge of the range in game and the perfect timing to hit FG. Fine, i won't bother reading this thread anymore. I guess it's useless to argue, but I do feel that ghost are still underused though. You should stop thinking yourself as making them for your end-all-game, they're not but still a very strong unit against infestors and to a lesser extent against banes in very few numbers. You just don't use them for your average game, much like us with hydras. no and no. Ghosts are underused because they suck. They used to be used ALLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TIME before they got nerfed. Ravens are better against infestors because it takes 300+ energy to fungal a raven to death, while one seeker will one-hit an infestor. Ghosts are made to be against Protoss units, NOT zerg units. It takes two snipes to kill an infestor, but you need to send in a good amount of ghosts to kill their infestors. But one fungal will kill the entire clump of ghosts.
I dont understand cause people bring up flaws of ghosts that already existed pre nerf. Nothings new apm wise, emp radius wise, its just that you cant kill T3 units anymore.
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I think one of the great challenges to the asymmetrical balance Blizzard is trying to achieve is emotional. If terrans have an early game advantage that they must turn into something in order to be even then terran harassment has to be undefendable at equal skill. That means that when terran comes in and roasts 20 drones or 10 probes then that is by design, not a swing in the game.
This makes for an emotionally irreconcilable play experience. Zerg and toss are stuck in a standard of play where they take huge losses which make defeats crushing. Terran are stuck in a standard of play where they do tons of damage but still lose a lot.
Any solutions I have come up with are too drastic to be implemented so I don't know what else to say other than that if this persists it will kill the scene after the hope of expansions has passed.
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On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though  And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing.
Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
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On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 23:50 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:24 BeeNu wrote:On June 27 2012 23:07 Xingke wrote:On June 27 2012 22:46 phrenzy wrote:
Is it me or is the reason why everyone is complaining is that reactor hellion became such a standard that it cant do damage anymore? (and by that i mean, free tumor snipes and the off chance of 4 hellions roasting a mineral line)
I feel terran is the most versatile race in the game and yet im only seeing a few change their style. Queens have many weaknesses. Even with creep, they are slow, even though they are stronger than marines, they dont scale as well as them. Queens are such a defensive unit and one of the rules i stick to is, if someone is gearing for an attack.. defend. If someone is being defensive... expand.
If a zerg doesnt stop making queens, you are free to expand and tech. I know most terran like marines, medivacs and tanks but you cant stick to it forever. Zergs mix their unit comp with lings, infestors, ultras/broods. almost each their in there.
A single raven is good for creep. 5 Ravens late game is amazing for defense. And since the nerf to ghosts, they cant rape ultras anymore, i dont know why terrans still dont make them. EMP is ridiculous, on both infestors and late game queens for transfusing ultras.
You thought drops were good, try nukes.
Terrans have the mentality that they need to do damage early and offtend to win, thats one way to look at it, but successful players will realize, zerg can make too many units so soon. Just like in ZvP. Faster thirds are becoming the norm. And terran i feel have some of the best zoning units in the game. why not use tanks/ hellions and marines to take a faster third rather than to try and cripple a zerg economy?
But i guess if marine/medivac/tank is all you want to do, then knock yourself out. Or what will happen is a new style is adopted that zergs have said is the counter, just like Mothership in ZvP herp derp.
Even if im wrong, talk about something constructive and explore ideas.
In the end, their will be a buff to the raven, just so terran might make them. I dont think it will be nice to have one in your army, it will be essential. And early game harrassment will be far easier with autoturrets getting drones to scatter. People want to do other things. People want to use the Raven, as it has so much potential. The problem is everything other than MMM and Tanks are total crap, and ravens are total crap in their current state. You have to do damage vs zerg because you can't win in an equal late game vs an opponent you don't completely outskill. Not to mention if you try to actually go for macro based play zerg has the ability to just change and all in you and score a nice win. Queens now cover the map in creep which severely cripples all form of aggression with the movement bonus and vision, and queens themselves can actually just straight out fight off most early game forms aggression since zergs make so many. Not to mention drop play becomes significantly weaker because you have more queens to dps the medivacs meaning you can't stay as long without leaving, or you will get flat out denied. Massive early creep spread helps deflect this too because they get more vision quicker. The ghost nerf was the only real viable late game transition Terran had to fight vs Zerg T3 units, and actually benefited from sharing the same upgrades. I can agree that people could probably do some more experimenting with nukes though. Raven's cost too much, need too many upgrades, and their range sucks. Infestors can just outrange them and there goes your entire investment. You have to catch a zerg just completely not paying attention to get off good Seeker missiles. Since Blizzard decides to nerf any viable strategy Terran finds(i mean viable, not exploitable like the reaper bs) it is becoming harder and harder to enjoy this game as a Terran player. I don't claim to have a perfect balance proposal in mind but they have to address the issue of our late game for any legitimate balance to ever be obtained. One race being outright weaker in the late game is not something that should happen. Being forced to do damage in the earliest stages to stand a chance in the late game is not a "balanced" or fun game. If they want to keep that damn mentality then give another race a boost in the mid game to compensate but making it a lost cause if you pass X minutes without doing sufficient damage is a bogus balance model. See, I really just think you [along with many other players] simply have a flawed mentality about how to approach using your units in the first place. -Ghosts are still a great unit and the latest patch to them buffed them vs Infestors, but just nerfed them against Brood/Ultra...what does this mean? Well it means that Ghosts should simply be a spell caster that you add into your army for support, not add in as the backbone of your entire army. Infestors are a bit different, they can sometimes act as the backbone of a Zerg army simply because they are one of the only cost-effective units Zerg has if they can keep them alive, resulting in them being massed up, High Templar on the other hand are more similar to Ghosts in the sense of just playing a support role, not a backbone role. Previously, Ghosts could melt every single late-game unit that Zerg had, why would Terran ever build Vikings or Marauders when Ghosts could fill the same role in the endgame? Well I guess Blizzard didn't approve and honestly, it makes sense. Nukes act as amazing late-game harass to pick Zerg apart and Snipe on Infestors is better than it ever was, so really I fail to see the problem with Ghosts. -Ravens!!! Yeah I get it, they are expensive and most of their spells are hella expensive... but so what? The way I see it, Ravens still have a few discovered roles in the game that make them very useful. One common use would be with timing attacks such as 1-1-1 which relies on using a PDD or two with your attack, great. The other use would be simply having a form of mobile detection. Lately since 4+ Queen openings are popular in the mid-late game Creep just gets spread across the entire map and Terrans have to throw down heaps and hordes of Scans to deal with it...does that really make any sense to anyone when Terrans could just buy 1 Raven to keep safe with their army and go around clearing up Tumors? I really don't get it...is the cost of 1 Raven really too much to swallow that Terrans would rather drop 20+ scans for tumors? Can anyone explain this to me? And another thing, using Ravens in battle doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either since most of their abilities don't seem geared for that sort of situation. PDD is used for battle, sure, it has a ton of range and it doesn't require your Raven being put in a vulnerable position...but what about Turrets and Seeker? Well Turrets seem more like a form of zone control or harassment, not that big of a use for adding to your army. Seeker missile also seems like something that should be used in Mineral lines, not against an army which requires you completely risking losing your Raven and can be easily dodged even if you get to cast it off...I really don't think I can ever recall playing a single game where a Terran tried to drop a Seeker Missile into one of my mineral lines, but whatever I'm sure you guys don't do it because it's "impossible" or something, right? In the end, sure Terran is weaker in the early game in the sense that it's a LOT harder for Terran to just roflstomp Zerg with early pressure, but on the flip side of that I think Terrans are really, really lacking in late-game tactics and unit use. Also as a side-note, even before Ghosts got nerfed I seem to recall most Terrans used Ghosts to Snipe everything, EMP was rarely used anyways..even when there was a massive clump of Infestors sitting there most Terrans seemed to opt for sniping as many as possible over using EMP since Snipe actually kills them and EMP only slows them down a tad....idk seems like pointless crying to me but what do I know. not sure if your post is serious or just a troll or just a lack of knowledge. ghosts don't emp infestors well because infestors are fat. Also, a missed emp will mean a fungal on your clump of ghosts, and fungalled ghosts are easy kills. Snipe is apm intensive and ghosts are near worthless against every other zerg unit. Trying to snipe while a hoard of banelings rolls towards your infantry line is suicide. Nukes? lol, ok man, whatever ... Ravens are expensive. And PDD? are you serious? What early game unit will PDD work against for a timing attack? Unless a zerg is making hydras, you can't make ravens for a PDD timing attackl. Auto turrets are bad, real bad. Upgraded lings will chew through them. If the zerg doesn't upgrade, turrets may be viable. Mainly, turrets are better used as a "blocker" to soak damage. And seeker in mineral lines? lol, maybe if you want to kill like 3 drones. The only use for seeker is to kill infestors since one seeker can one-shot an infestor. But again, this is risky. One fungal and your ravens are dead. You should at least try playing Terran before offering advice. I am seriously questioning how much knowledge you have about this .... Rofl, your examples are hilariously cute. Yeah, if you go to spend all your AMP on snipe while a major battle is going on you might lose, big surprise. Try sending your Ghosts out to snipe shit not the exact moment the Zerg is flanking you from 4 different directions, rofl. How about like, oh gee I dunno, while Zerg is building up his army you go out and snipe shit? Really ingenious idea I know! It's not like every single terran who has ever used Ghosts doesn't already do that or something...rofl. And really...you have never used Raven and PDD in a 1-1-1 timing attack? Christ, do you even play Terran? Someone previously said Seeker only kills like 3 workers in a mineral line? If that's true that sucks, I wouldn't really know though cuz I've never seen it attempted in the first place. Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science.
your suggestions are unrealistic. I'm really starting to think people are just trolling now.
PDD only works against:
Queen
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Corruptor
Spore Crawler
You want ravens for a timing attack against zerg? It will never happen. And the reason why you never see seeker missiles in mineral lines is because every terran tried it once and realized it sucked major ass. I rather throw down a couple turrets if I get near a mineral line.
Hellions currently don't work, so you want to use hellions + ghost? what? And you need a lot of ghosts to kill a clump of infestors. Clump of ghost = fungal heaven. It is also very apm intensive.
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On June 28 2012 00:18 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 15:32 lorkac wrote:
Is a cloaked ghost too ineffective to attempt?
A cloaked banshee costs 500g (banshee+cloak+factory+starport)
2 cloaked ghosts costs 450g (ghost, ghost, academy, cloak)
Just theorycrafting because Im running out of ideas.
At my level (plat) the patch has no effect due to low level play on both sides. A Zerg player can usually expand at 6min at plat without the queen buff--but watching some recent tvz games, makes me wonder if anyone has tested that extensively and (more specifically) if they could share their findings here? Actually I think that in the current metagame ghosts should be used once again (not as early harass tho, well perhaps). Now terrans never use ghosts anymore, so zergs don't prepare at all against ghosts. I'm sure terrans could grab a few wins just by making 5-6 ghosts, cloaking and sniping/emp'ing infestors. I don't know if it viable long term, but in the current state of the TvZ I can observe, it would work decently I think. + Show Spoiler [Today's GSL] +Today MVP on whirlwind would have won if he replaced 3 thors with the equivalent resources in ghosts when violet pushed in his main with a relatively small army. Emp'ing the infestors would have won the game I think.
I totally agree. the whole one funghal and all my ghosts die thing is just people who deserve to loose cause you never clump up units when infestors are out anyways.
On the other hand, I really think EMP raiud should come back to what is was before, with toss now learning to use warp prisms effectively to protects the HTs....
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On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after.
What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem?
Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
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On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
2 scans? what?
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I don't think the mod edit at page 98 really was really taken into effect ... My opinion on the queen change is that it was just an addtive effect, it doesn't "cause" losses and it doesn't make the game win or lose, but it substantially increases the zergs presence early game/midgame with creep spread which in turn adds up to an overall stronger game. The question is, is this really what's causing the imbalance? I believe not, and I can't put my finger on it, but it just seems as though the combination of infestor/BL/Corruptor lategame and ling/bling/infestor midgame just stomps bio. Maybe mech? I really just don't know.
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On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in.
This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind.
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On June 28 2012 00:18 Tryagain4free wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:16 Meff wrote:
Actually, if scouting such a build at the 7 minutes timing is the problem then a floating barracks will probably work better than a scan. It costs a little less and sees a wider area/lasts longer. The only way for Z to kill it quickly would be to have a very high number of queens, and in that case T can rule out a strong all-in. A strong all-in at 7-8 minutes with one rax, hanging out? Hm...
Better than with a scan wasted, I'm saying.
That said, I doubt that the scan/rax are even needed in the first place. Checking the Z third (or lack thereof) slightly after 6 minutes should be enough to tell T whether to expect two or three base play. Somebody has suggested using a single hellion for that, which should work and comes a little faster than reactored hellions used to. It also lets T clean up slowlings at the watchtowers.
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On June 28 2012 00:18 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 15:32 lorkac wrote:
Is a cloaked ghost too ineffective to attempt?
A cloaked banshee costs 500g (banshee+cloak+factory+starport)
2 cloaked ghosts costs 450g (ghost, ghost, academy, cloak)
Just theorycrafting because Im running out of ideas.
At my level (plat) the patch has no effect due to low level play on both sides. A Zerg player can usually expand at 6min at plat without the queen buff--but watching some recent tvz games, makes me wonder if anyone has tested that extensively and (more specifically) if they could share their findings here? Actually I think that in the current metagame ghosts should be used once again (not as early harass tho, well perhaps). Now terrans never use ghosts anymore, so zergs don't prepare at all against ghosts. I'm sure terrans could grab a few wins just by making 5-6 ghosts, cloaking and sniping/emp'ing infestors. I don't know if it viable long term, but in the current state of the TvZ I can observe, it would work decently I think. But as it would work mostly because zerg doesn't have any detection, I'm not sure it's stable. + Show Spoiler [Today's GSL] +Today MVP on whirlwind would have won if he replaced 3 thors with the equivalent resources in ghosts when violet pushed in his main with a relatively small army. Emp'ing the infestors would have won the game I think.
Ghosts aren't going to be the savior of the match-up, but I do believe they're one piece of the puzzle that should be placed in, especially since we're seeing less and less Tanks as the match-up continues to develop. Tanks used to be the safety net vs Infestors, but now they're not, especially due to the massive amount of creep spreading and emphasis on Bio openings.
I personally believe Bomber's transition into BCs should be looked at more closely.
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On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player
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On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what?
What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything.
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On June 28 2012 00:23 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind.
1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
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On June 28 2012 00:17 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Saccing an overlord doesn't cost supply minerals and one larva, it costs supply or minerals and one larva. If you spend minerals and one larva you end up on the same supply.
Of course long term it doesn't, but the unit does provide 8 supply and you do lose it when you do it, which can matter. I was only really being that detailed because Terran players love to remind everyone how much they have to 'pay' for each scan.
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On June 28 2012 00:25 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:22 Douillos wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. 2 scans? what? What if you scanned the wrong place and didn't see anything ? Can happen very easily scan again and hope for a better result ? Zergs can build tech everywhere where creep is and seeing Gasses at 7 minutes for example doesn't really tell me anything.
Scan main, check third and poke natural with hellions. Please guys come on, im only diamond and i know this shit.
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On June 28 2012 00:26 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:23 themell wrote:On June 28 2012 00:20 RancidTurnip wrote:On June 28 2012 00:10 avc wrote:On June 28 2012 00:03 themell wrote:On June 27 2012 23:40 avc wrote:One of the key things that is actually affecting Terran players is their lack of ability to scout potential all ins if they are being greedy. Or well, it's not their lack of ability, it's their lack of willingness. You used to use the early game domination of Hellions as your early warning system, now that's not always a guaranteed thing why not change it up a little? I wonder if a well timed scan could become part of a normal greedy economical build to ensure the Terran knows whether an all in is coming or not. Such knowledge would really assist their ability to hold the all in and if they have that, then they can more frequently 'get away' with such a greedy build. Although this post isn't directly concerning Queens, it's not like most other peoples posts are either. I don't expect such a suggestion to have any effect on the kind of Terran players lurking in this thread though And just when is this "well timed scan" supposed to be? Scans are precious in the early game. You can't just randomly scan because that's a lot of precious minerals wasted. Why your "suggestions" don't work is because you don't have enough knowledge as a Terran player to see that it's not realistic or cost effective. What's better, losing a mule or losing a game? Do a bit of research, find the timing window for the popular Roach/Ling/Bane all in that is killing greedy Terran players and use a Scan prior to that. You will probably find out whether an all in is coming or not and will have time to prepare defences or you may just deter the Zerg from going through with it after all. Zerg players have been sacrificing Overlords for a long time in the process of trying to see what their opponent is doing or whether a scary attack is being prepared, this costs supply, minerals and a single larva. It's not exactly something Zerg always wants to toss away, but the potential pay off is high, it is very often the difference between winning and losing. Scan is there for a reason, the obsession Terran players have with it 'costing minerals' is way over the top. It costs energy and if you are going for a greedy fast expand build you shouldn't miss the mules mining income that much. I think every single person playing this game would happily pay a mules income to find out information that could stop them losing. Losing a mule is better than losing a game, but losing 2 mules in the early game for nothing may very well cost the game as well... I spend two scans to see if my opponent is going all-in, suddenly my timings are off and I'm either gonna take a late third and lose, go for a late timing push and have it crushed, or I'll be missing a siege tank and two bunkers I'd need to defend the all in. This. You can't just scan whenever you want. And what if you scan a couple times and see that zerg is just macroing. Those scans just placed you further behind. 1 scans, 1 hellion and a bit of knowledge of the opponents race will get you all the info you need. Please be a little honest.
Fine, I'll give you that.
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On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this.
Because your opponent realizes you're on Hellion/Ghost, which means you have at least both gases, tech labbed rax, reactored Factory, no Marines, no third, and so on. Hellion/Ghost is an absolutely awful composition.
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On June 28 2012 00:25 themell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:22 BeeNu wrote:On June 28 2012 00:17 HeroMystic wrote:On June 28 2012 00:11 BeeNu wrote:
Anyways, now for something entirely unrelated. In TvZ I expect the next metagame shift will be Hellion/Ghost openings. There, you got some Zerg innovation here to help all you lil' Terrans out, go experiment with that for a bit. Get some hellions to roast Lings, get a bunker or two for your Ghosts to fall back on if they need it, and use Ghosts to pick off Queens, then you have Ghost tech already unlocked for when Infestors come out later. C'mon guys, this shit isn't rocket science. This has already been experimented with extensively. You die too easily to counteraggression and one spine crawler stops your entire push. The only thing you do is kill Queens and slow down creep spread, but you'll usually die almost immediately after. What type of counteragression are you talking about? I'm not saying send every single unit to the front line and never transition and go all-in with this, I'm saying use this to do exactly what you said it does, contain and slow down creep and maybe deny some Queens. What's the problem? Also if this has already been extensively tried, please provide me some replays or links to videos of this. If you see hellions and ghost, just make roaches and kill the Terran player
Well that's basically my point. Lets say you make 4 Hellions and a Ghost or two, Zerg reacts by going Roach....well great, mission accomplished, time to pack up and go back home, bunker up a bit if they are gonna all-in but otherwise just macro up. The entire point of this mass Queen opening is so that Zerg doesnt have to make Roaches in the first place, if you force them to go Roaches you've accomplished your goal entirely. It's like going for a Stargate to make Zerg build Hydras for your Colossus transition. Obviously you need to have a follow-up strategy beyond your initial pressure, but you are still putting on pressure and slowing the Zerg down, isn't that what you Terran players want? Or are you actually still looking for early game "pressure" that just outright wins you games?
If you opened Ghost/Hellion and then transitioned into a fairly fast Siege Tank or two you would basically be completely safe vs any type of counterattack, fyi, and it wouldn't be a hard transition to make either, just flip your Factory and Barracks around and BAM, you can now make Marine/Tank and you got Ghost tech ready for later when you need it.
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EPT
