EPT1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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Mackus
England1681 Posts
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OGzan
United States289 Posts
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CrY.
Japan97 Posts
Please read the interviews (Code S players in agreement that zerg is much too strong) The zergs that keep denying this and telling us to "ride it out and experiment" are just being ignorant at this point. | ||
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slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
On June 20 2012 14:28 sam05396 wrote: keep in mind i am terran so i may be biased At first i thought that this plus 2 range would not make that big of a difference, but now it is so much harder to beat zerg and it seems like they can just hide behind 6 queens and go mass drones. So naturally most terrans have been playing very greedy to keep up with the economy/upgrades but it also seems like it is so easy to go into and roach ling bane all in without being scouted. I have seen people going into roach ling bane all in from 2 base lair, from double evo, from a quick third, it can just come out of so many things and seems impossible to scout correctly at this point. But i think we will start seeing more early timings with marauders involved to fight queens, but we just have to continue to wait for meta game shifts to truly tell. Doesn't work. It's so easy just to make lings and win. I've tried drops and pushes with pure marauder, tried marauder/hellion, tried even thors... Terran strategy has become a drop game against the other races now, where if you drop and they fail to manage defending well, it's the only viable way to either win mid-game or have a better maxed army. I just hope HoTS fixes the problems the last few patches have made in terms of versatility in the matchups. | ||
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lawlohwhat
United States32 Posts
I've tried greedy play, mech, bio with no tanks, bio with tanks, and several different openings, namely copying thorzain, bomber, mvp and demuslim among others. Constant aggression is giving me the best shot at winning, but I believe that has more to do with throwing my opponents off and forcing mistakes than being a viable strategy. I feel that there are three builds that are inevitably thrown at me. Roach/bling/ling all in, ling/bling all in, or fast 3rd and teching to infestor/ultra. There is no variety and I believe that this fact speaks to how difficult the matchup is at the moment. There is no incentive for zerg to do any other builds because these three openings are so strong. It's extremely difficult to stop either of the two all ins, even if scouted as well. Fungal does too much damage for how painless it is to tech to, and spamming queens has no drawbacks. I think these two factors are breaking the matchup. High master terran for what it's worth. | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
Marinekings 1 rax CC into cloaked banshee has been working wonders for me on ladder. There's still tons of options for terran.....can you imagine if zerg could make 4 roaches and contain a terran for 7-8 minutes. The whining from terrans would never end. Try to look at the game without your massive bias and maybe off race once and a while. You'll find that your not as good as you think you are and your opinions on balance are even worse. ( Notice none of the qqers provide replays ) | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
On June 24 2012 16:05 lawlohwhat wrote: I've refrained from speaking about this until now but it's gotten out of hand. Terran is really weak to both races, and zerg is especially bad. I'm doing my best to compensate by playing better, but it's almost impossible to beat an equally rated zerg opponent unless they make mistakes. A lot of people are dismissing it as a metagame issue [lol incontrol], but realistically, the race has been weak for about six months now. I think the metagame has just now caught up to how heavily terran's weak late game can be exploited, and the queen range buff continues to baffle me. I've tried greedy play, mech, bio with no tanks, bio with tanks, and several different openings, namely copying thorzain, bomber, mvp and demuslim among others. Constant aggression is giving me the best shot at winning, but I believe that has more to do with throwing my opponents off and forcing mistakes than being a viable strategy. I feel that there are three builds that are inevitably thrown at me. Roach/bling/ling all in, ling/bling all in, or fast 3rd and teching to infestor/ultra. There is no variety and I believe that this fact speaks to how difficult the matchup is at the moment. There is no incentive for zerg to do any other builds because these three openings are so strong. It's extremely difficult to stop either of the two all ins, even if scouted as well. Fungal does too much damage for how painless it is to tech to, and spamming queens has no drawbacks. I think these two factors are breaking the matchup. High master terran for what it's worth. You can easily say the same about reactor hellion openings. 1) Fungle will always be around as long as marines are as godly as they are. Fungle needs to be as good as it is because Marines scale better then any unit in the game. 2) EU zergs have been using 6+ queens for a while (dimaga, and Snute I think it is come to mind) Builds are generally the same as they were pre patch. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On June 24 2012 13:34 roymarthyup wrote: 6queen openings probably would still be just as effective against hellion openings if the change was reverted because hellions damage queens too slowly to even outdamage transfuse. most zergs could easily justdrop half the tumors and transfuse and still beat the hellions but 3range queens got slaughtered by bio timings so 6queen openings at least had a hardcounter and didnt defend everything at 3range That's the best summary of this. 6 queen would be a viable, but not infinitely safe opening, if the range was back to 3. It's just no zerg bothered to try it when the queens had 3 range. It will still spread creep like mad, but Terrans can actually answer it with something if scouted well. | ||
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 24 2012 16:12 BandonBanshee wrote: The change is fine, Hellion openers still work they are just harder (considering it was one of the easiest and safest openings this is a good thing). Queens still do shit damage...people act like their hellions get 1 shotted now. Why are you so entitled? Why should the fact that you made hellions give you an automatic advantage? Hellions still do all the shit they did before except now it takes a bit of thought/micro. Marinekings 1 rax CC into cloaked banshee has been working wonders for me on ladder. There's still tons of options for terran.....can you imagine if zerg could make 4 roaches and contain a terran for 7-8 minutes. The whining from terrans would never end. Try to look at the game without your massive bias and maybe off race once and a while. You'll find that your not as good as you think you are and your opinions on balance are even worse. ( Notice none of the qqers provide replays ) yet another biased zerg viewpoint.. Awsome stuff kiddo, BUT Hellion openers dont work anymore, because the point behind the hellion opening ((contrary to low leveled zergs opinions)) is not ment to kill, or even do economical damage, it is to contain the zerg on two bases and force them to make units instead of droneing, while Terran tries taking a faster 3rd.. And if you look at the win %'s, Terrans were not dominating with this style of play, but instead the overall match up was 50%, with swings from month the month between Terran and Zerg over who had the higher % ((what you would call in lamens terms, Balanced)). Zergs were not losing out right to Hellion openings ((unless they were bad - yes even the pros that lost out right to hellion openings played BAD, and that is why they lost, not because of op hellions)) but they were having to play reactionary ((go figure, the quote unquote "ractionary race" having to play reactionary.. thats imba right there)).. Now zergs can get an extremly fast 3rd unmolested, and Terran cant do anything about it, because they have literally nothing that can harass zerg early on anymore ((everything has been nerfed either directly or indirectly)).. If Terran tires to take a fast 3rd, zerg can either switch into full unit production on 2 bases and roll over the armyless Terran, or zerg can out greed the greedy Terran and go up to 5+ bases, and win lategame regardless.. Saying that this patch has had nothing todo with why Terrans are suddenly losing en mass, is being willfully ignorant ((dumb on purpse)).. I dare Zerg players to actually bring up RECENT statistics that prove this patch had no effect in breaking TvZ. I DARE THEM.. Instead of bringing up 1/2 year old ((if not older)) statistics and claiming it proves that everything is fine.. On June 24 2012 16:22 SolidMoose wrote: That's the best summary of this. 6 queen would be a viable, but not infinitely safe opening, if the range was back to 3. It's just no zerg bothered to try it when the queens had 3 range. It will still spread creep like mad, but Terrans can actually answer it with something if scouted well. This is the truth.. As is, if things were reverted, 6queen opening would still be a legit strat, but Terrans could actually do something against it.. As it is right now, zerg is out of control.. But go figure that zerg players would not experiment with their race when things were balanced, and instead QQed about stupied stuff, and after they get an overwheling advatage in a MU they suddenly find new ways to play. And Yet again Terrans are forced to find new styles of play after reciving yet another nerf if they want to win,, and yet all zergsdo is still tell Terrans to "discover" new startegies ((when that is all Terran players have done since beta)) because Terrans are just bad, and Zergs are justified. | ||
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valkyrurRandom
United States1 Post
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 24 2012 10:51 redruMBunny wrote: For my part, this is what I think about the appropriate Terran response to the queen buff - Mech - Thor/tank/hellion, varying composition according to the Zerg army, could maybe work. Of course, you run into late game problems, mechs take a while to develop, &c, and infestors are a problem that I don't think ghosts can quite answer, then there's potential problems with broodlords &c &c, but then, I can't say. I think the next few months will see more answers on how successful TvZ mech can be. Hellions anyways - you can't kite 2 Hellions in for decent disruption any more, which is a pretty big difference. Now you need 4+ to make things happen. Obviously Hellion harass isn't as good as it was pre-patch, but it still isn't awful for Terran. You typically get a good scout off. You disrupt drones, often to the tune of 140 mineral 60 gas (for 15 seconds of disruption). You may get some kills, and can often retreat some Hellions. All in all, not a bad return. Not great, but not awful. Early tank/marine - you can get smashed up by lings, and if your main army is gone, it gets ugly. So probably not. Even SCV all-in is risky, especially since Zerg will often see the attack coming with a scout zergling. Cloak banshee rush - with less gas, Zerg has later lair development, so later overlords &c. But I don't quite feel this may be the answer either. You will at least probably have to proxy starport for this to work - for better timing, and because a suicide scout overlord over your main can typically see starport/tech lab. Even so, a couple pre-emptive spore colonies, and Overseer/queen can make things very tricky. Medivac drop - I see a lot of Terrans going single Medivac drop, which doesn't do a lot of damage, then gets cleaned up in short order. Besides that, even at pro level you don't often get coordinated attacks where the Terran makes multiprong attacks with good micro. I think this is the big thing that Terran hasn't been using. It's difficult, and you could say with some justice that most players just aren't capable of simultaneous drops with good micro, but even at SC2 pro level I haven't seen the sort of aggressiveness and effectiveness that I would expect. I think good medivac use might not be a definitive answer, but that it might be part of *a* answer. Simultaneous or near-simultaneous drops and good micro to keep the Zerg running around a bit, while NOT losing most of the Terran units - very promising. What's the Zerg defense? Simultaneously gauge threats? Players responding to attacks have a worse time of it than those initiating them. Scattering spores on the perimeter is too expensive, patrolling zerglings and banelings costs Zerg development and lessens the defense at the natural, using forces at the natural to react likewise takes time. It isn't a lot of time, not at all, to be clear. But there should be a window, and I think Terrans can use it to some effect. Viking - you don't see Viking in TvZ, but I think it might have some potential. You're usually going to have overlords scattered over the map that can't be defended, and Vikings can pick off a few. Plus with flying Vikings you can get Terran scouting of Zerg bases, overlord harassing, maybe land and pick some stuff off - maybe there's something there, maybe not. I'm not talking about a chunk of Vikings. 2 at the most. But at the very least, Vikings should serve to cut down on Zerg overlord scouting, which although not a big plus considering the resource and time investment is something. Again, not *the* answer, clearly, but maybe part of *a* answer, possibly involving ghosts and keeping the zerg guessing about what terran is up to. Raven - Midgame or even late game TvZ without Ravens was pretty standard prepatch. It's true you need tech lab for Raven. It's true Ravens cost a chunk of gas. But these are early concerns when Terran is really strapped for gas. Later on, considering how much a MULE can bring in, Raven makes a lot of sense. Yes, Ravens are vulnerable and can be destroyed, yes it costs a lot of energy for point defense or seeker missile, yes seekers aren't great and require research, yes of course you need gas. But - constant detection stopping baneling traps, mowing over creep, plus leaving more energy for MULEs, plus by midgame you can probably move barracks/factory around a bit for a Raven. Anyways, I think Ravens were underutilized prepatch, and that they will see increased use and be part of the answer for the postpatch TvZ matchup. Ghost - EMP is a good answer to infestors, but getting the EMP off is questionable. Maybe some combination of splitting ghosts, cloak, and vikings targeting overseers will work. -- I'm guessing we'll see something like reactor medivac x 2 into raven for frontal probing push teamed with drop, or medivac x 4 into simultaneous drops, mixing hellions with bio. All of the above are builds that were in the game before the patch. They are not affected that much by the patch, but they are still worse now. Just making queens better did not open up any weaknesses that could be exploited trough new builds. Just an example: If they had buffed hydras to do some of the early defence, that would open up certain new reactions, because they were not used before. The queen buff is not like that. Queens do everything now in zerg early game. Just go to the unit tester and try to fight armys that terran can realisticly build to harass in early game. Queens can now fight all of those cost effective. Before they could not. Now they can. Mass queen did not work before, because this was not the case. The only way to win TvZ is either hardcore all in, eco cheese like mad, or playing far far better then the zerg. | ||
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 24 2012 16:55 submarine wrote: All of the above are builds that were in the game before the patch. They are not affected that much by the patch, but they are still worse now. Just making queens better did not open up any weaknesses that could be exploited trough new builds. Just an example: If they had buffed hydras to do some of the early defence, that would open up certain new reactions, because they were not used before. The queen buff is not like that. Queens do everything now in zerg early game. Just go to the unit tester and try to fight armys that terran can realisticly build to harass in early game. Queens can now fight all of those cost effective. Before they could not. Now they can. Mass queen did not work before, because this was not the case. The only way to win TvZ is either hardcore all in, eco cheese like mad, or playing far far better then the zerg. well put man.. Im still hanging my head waiting for the next Terran nerf that is incoming.. You know its coming, because people still play Terran.. | ||
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jkos86
50 Posts
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Adrenal6land
United States46 Posts
queen : 150 minerals 0gas 50 build time 2 supply 5 range what are people complaining about? | ||
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 24 2012 17:14 Adrenal6land wrote: Hellion : 100 minerals 0 gas 30 build time 2 supply 5 range (you can build 2 at a time) queen : 150 minerals 0gas 50 build time 2 supply 5 range what are people complaining about? Queens are casters.. so dont forget to factor in their Creep spread, and their macro mechanic ((inject Larvae)), because those two things play a pretty big factor in what people are complaining about.. and Hellions need a 150 minral 100 gas building to build them + a reactor with is 50 minrals 50 gas if yo uwant to build two are a time ((which means hellions take more economy to produce than queens)) But with the limited stats you posted, people are complaining about the fact that now queens shut down all forms of harass that Terrans can do, meaning zergs no longer need to build units, and can just mass macro unmolested now.. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
3 Banshees can beat 3 queens quite handily. If the queens have at least 1 transfusion each then the queens will beat the banshees without micro even if both sides target fire. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On June 24 2012 17:14 Adrenal6land wrote: Hellion : 100 minerals 0 gas 30 build time 2 supply 5 range (you can build 2 at a time) queen : 150 minerals 0gas 50 build time 2 supply 5 range what are people complaining about? Doing direct cost to cost based analysis in Starcraft is a really fucking pointless waste of time. Ignoring units completely, each race mines resources and spends them differently to the others. Like, sure hellions are 100 minerals but it cost 150 gas to be able to make 2 of them at once. The queen costs 0 gas to tech to. See how foolish such an argument looks? How can we really compare how effective these 2 units should be based purely off their cost? A lot of people would do these sorts of arguements back in the beta and they were very silly. And to answer your last question, the complaints about how difficult it is to apply pressure to a zerg and stop them from getting 3 bases and 60 drones ezpz behind a bunch of range 5 queens, and how TvZ statistically has gone down the shitter since the recent patch. | ||
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Splynn
United States225 Posts
On June 24 2012 16:05 lawlohwhat wrote: I'm doing my best to compensate by playing better, but it's almost impossible to beat an equally rated zerg opponent unless they make mistakes. Took that part out specifically because it's always bugged me in threads like this. I think that the mentality of "I can't win unless they mess up" contributes significantly to balance discussions, and is incredibly dangerous both to the community and to self-improvement. In a game between A and B- let's say A plays terran and B plays zerg- why should A ever be able to win if B makes no mistakes? A is making mistakes- since everyone playing the game makes mistakes. So if B doesn't make mistakes and is playing perfectly while A plays imperfectly, then A never deserves to win. The only way B should not, in that situation, win is if A also played perfectly. And if both sides are playing perfectly then the game will basically never end, and result in a draw. If any of us are in this AvB situation and feel like we played perfectly, then we are simply wrong and need to more objectively evaluate our own play. The argument "I can't win unless B makes mistakes" is just the game working as intended. That's just how it functions. Now, you might be able to get away with "unless they make BIG mistakes." In this situation while B is making minor mistakes, they don't lead to a loss. In my opinion, this is because A is responsively making the mistake of not capitalizing on B's mistakes; in that situation A is effectively re-leveling the playing field. The imbalance comes in when tested and there actually is no way to capitalize on small mistakes in a significant enough way to gain a lead. So B can simply choose to play sub-optimally, and A doesn't have the ability to make decisions which take advantage, because no such decision exists. That all said, I think that the queen change was over the top. I just think that the mentality and phrasing of "I can't win unless they make mistakes" needs to go and be replaced with "There's no way to take advantage of sloppy play on their part." And I know that most people don't care about language specificalities like this, but this is an important one because it's more directly talking about issues rather than vaguely speaking to a problem which is exactly not a problem at all. I wish they'd revert the queen changes. And I play zerg  . The beginning of the game was always sort of boring and repeatitive. Now even more so. And I do feel like terran doesn't have an effective way of taking advantage of my small mistakes in the early game. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
I'd actually love to see 2 'perfect' ai's play TvZ. It'd be very funny I feel. The main reason why i'd wish they'd revert the queen change is that my personal competitive TvZ is mostly janky all ins because nothing else is working reliably enough. And mostly losing. My practice games both with teammates and on ladder is infuriating as buggery. Losing/having very difficult games against people who a patch ago I'd fucking annihilate easily or at least match up quite well is incredibly frustrating, especially in a local metagame that's 80% good zergs anyway | ||
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andropopp
United States88 Posts
now i admit, there ARE terran options imo that are unexplored and maybe those can hold promise. but saying "just adapt" is not accurate because if somethings imbalanced then theoretically its impossible to adapt around it here are the only unexplored options imo I see that might become the answer terrans are looking for. But other than the following I dont think theres much left to the race 1) defensive planetarys faster acting like tosse cannons or zergs spine crawlers. if gotten right at the end of midgame terran wont need to spend thousands of resources into marines to survive zergs massive lingbane infestor onslaught, instead the terran will be able to use those resources to get bc/thor/viking/tank while surviving thanks to defensive planetarys 2) defensive planetarys lategame to counteract the weakness of mech. bc/thor/viking/tank is very slow any terran who even gets this army once is ripped to shreds by mass roaches or mutas multi-prong attacking all his expansions and starving out the terran. maybe defensive planetarys and sensor towers could help fix this weakness 3) still the question exists. If zerg gets that perfect endgame army of PURE broods (no lings, no roaches, just PURE broodlord infestor corrupter like 20 broodlords and corrupter/infestor for anti air) is there a way for terran to even fight it and win? most terrans right now are trying to drop everywhere and abuse the slowness of broods, but if the zerg has 1 infestor defending per base with spines then you drop 2 medivacs 20food that almost dies to 1infestor+spines then you drop 2-3 places your army is 60food smaller and the full zerg army defends it well with just 2-3 infestors and then marches through your side of the map killing everything with his entire army so can that ultra endgame army of zerg even be killed? I think so with mass vikings and some PDD and thor/hellion. its just incredibly hard for terran to be able to field that army. 4) using bc's to counter ultras. ultras combined with fungal and banellings/lings are so strong they decimate everything on the ground most terrans are getting stomped by the ultra timings. maybe the way to play against this is getting those defensive planetarys which help defend against ultras until bc's come out. i used to think the counter to ultras was kiting MMM since ultras are too strong to fight head on but fungal stops kiting and broodlord range stops ghost emp. i used to think a zergs perfect endgame army should pretty much always win against any perfect terran army because terran air is weak, and ultras cost for cost obliterated all ground units with fungal/broodlord support but then i went into the unit tester and discovered that where i thought battlecruisers were too weak to use in endgame terran armies because corrupters decimated them in any battle of over 30 food (even with good yamatos) and i didnt see a unit bc's countered hard enough to warrant their weakness to corrupters. after testing i realized a purpose BC's could serve. battlecruisers actually are a good counter to ultralisks and as long as you just have 1 bc per ultra, then they are good units because if the enemy has corrupters you can get units to counter the corrupters and the bc's counter ultras harder then corrupters counter bc's. create any perfect zerg army with ultras in it and add in 1 bc per ultra and the bc's instantly cut the ultra numbers in half due to yamato. so food for food every bc in your army is a strong counter to the enemy ultralisk thats just 1 thing ive noticed, unit wise, which is theorycraft but its still thats not really pointless.. what this theorycraft tells you is that if there could somehow be found a viable build to allow viable bc's to be gotten against ultras, then bc's would work on paper (however whether or not a viable method/build exists, who knows) so now that i realized ultras are not as stupidly overpowered as i once thought and are countered pretty hard by BC's (and not banshees actually because ultras still rip everything apart too fast only yamato stops them banshees dont work too well) i no longer think theres a perfect zerg army thats unbeatable. but still thats just theorycraft on paper, when it comes to designing a build/playstyle that actually finds a way to viably get bc's in time to counter ultras, that is still unknown and maybe designing such a build/style is impossible which is why i said these things "might" be the answers terrans are looking for but who knows im just listing every part of the race that i think could be classified as unexplored 5) idra said hes experiencing a style on ladder where terrans go mass MMM tankless and add in ravens later with their gas and he says its really powerful. This is a idea ive been thinking about for a while now because if you spent your gas on ravens instead of tanks you could just get 3-3 bio and you dont need mech or air upgrades and extra gas is in ravens and medivacs, once bio is 3-3 and you have tons of marines and marauders, you put the marauders in front of marines and spread them good and the huge damage output of 200food of MMM can probably kill 200food of ling/bane quickly. if the zerg has broodlords use HSM or if its pure ling/bane then drop tons of auto turrets and some hsm if he commits to the battle again im not saying these *are* the answers im just looking at the terran race and only a few things imo are left to be explored and for all we know these options might suck even if they are explored so who knows. who knows | ||
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