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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 24 2012 17:18 SnipedSoul wrote:
I'm actually frightened at how good transfusion is. I've seen it plenty in lategame scenarios on BL and ultras and it's fine there. However, in the early game it's so good. If used properly it gives a queen ~70% of its health back. So any sort of push from the terran is easily warded off with minimal losses. Once the zerg has a dozen or so tumors going and starts to bank energy on the non-injecting queens any sort of pressure is doomed to fail horribly.
3 Banshees can beat 3 queens quite handily. If the queens have at least 1 transfusion each then the queens will beat the banshees without micro even if both sides target fire.
agreed here once you start adding transfuse into the equation, queens are fricken godly
queens kill a stalker, a zealot, a marauder, stim combat shield marines, or a roach food for food and are 2food and come from hatcherys so the zerg can make drones and queens at the same time
then to top it off early game when single units matter, queens for 50 energy essentially get to pop out an extra free queen with transfuse
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On June 24 2012 17:14 Adrenal6land wrote:
Hellion : 100 minerals 0 gas 30 build time 2 supply 5 range (you can build 2 at a time)
queen : 150 minerals 0gas 50 build time 2 supply 5 range
what are people complaining about?
Uhm....
Hellion DPS to queen: 3.2
Queen DPS to hellions: 8
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I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks
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On June 24 2012 16:12 BandonBanshee wrote:
The change is fine, Hellion openers still work they are just harder (considering it was one of the easiest and safest openings this is a good thing). Queens still do shit damage...people act like their hellions get 1 shotted now. Why are you so entitled? Why should the fact that you made hellions give you an automatic advantage? Hellions still do all the shit they did before except now it takes a bit of thought/micro.
Marinekings 1 rax CC into cloaked banshee has been working wonders for me on ladder. There's still tons of options for terran.....can you imagine if zerg could make 4 roaches and contain a terran for 7-8 minutes. The whining from terrans would never end. Try to look at the game without your massive bias and maybe off race once and a while. You'll find that your not as good as you think you are and your opinions on balance are even worse.
( Notice none of the qqers provide replays )
So much of what you say here is wrong, here's a start:
hellions are no longer a threat to queens because queens can kite them, it used to be the other way around, where if you were good with your hellion micro as terran you could kite queens and slow down their creep spread. You still had to have extremely fast reactions if they went for a surround with lings. This interaction between the range 3 queen and range 4 hellion rewarded good control, and punished terrans who played sloppy. Now queens just sit there and spread creep, and if the hellions come into range it doesn't really matter if the pick off a creep tumor or two as there are 4 queens spreading creep....
The only threat hellions present is a runby, and that was really the only issue I saw with hellions pre-patch (terrans were suiciding hellions just to trade them for drones, this patch doesn't fix that, and in fact makes it worse since zergs are less likely to make spine/walloffs).
The 1 rax CC into cloakshee is gimmicky and dies to roach bane.
I wouldn't really have an issue if zerg making 4 roaches was able to contain me to 2 bases until i teched up or built some units to kill them, a single bunker with some marines in it holds 4 roaches off fine, and a few queens easily fends off hellions.
The reason people don't post replays is because there is no point to posting a single replay, it's too specific an example to really prove much, and if you just go to any replay site and search for GM TvZ played in the latest patch you'll have an example. Zergs going from 47% winrate ZvT in GSL to 79% in 1 week, and then not having that number equalize after over a month, shows a huge problem. The worst winrate you're going to get in a matchup is around 80/20, as it's not to difficult to catch someone off guard with a crazy build order or huge risk or favorable map once every 5 games... It also means it's almost impossible for terrans to win a series (bo3, bo5).
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On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks
The problem with BC's is that u need to start upgrading ship weapons and armor early in the game so that u have 3/3 (or 2/2) BCs when u are making them. If u dont upgrade u will do 3 damage per shot against fully upgraded ultras. Yamato does do 300 damage but for each ultralisk u need two battlecruisers (if yamatoing).
I like the idea of going BCs but ultras could just stampede past your bcs. Against broodlords they have to get past the corrupters which do extra damage against massive targets, so vikings required.
Also mass zergling.
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On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks
its the ability to spread creep with queens only which can later in the game defend vs pushes + add lava to expensions.
the synergy is just too high and the cost too little for the zerg.
lategame has always been broken vs zergballs once the infester was buffed insanely.
Yamato while behind in eco vs the zerg who teches double air upgrade? are you kidding me? terran in midgame to lategame can be happy to have 3 bases, and you cant invest in any tech switches without dying.
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France9034 Posts
On June 24 2012 17:14 Adrenal6land wrote:
Hellion : 100 minerals 0 gas 30 build time 2 supply 5 range (you can build 2 at a time)
queen : 150 minerals 0gas 50 build time 2 supply 5 range
what are people complaining about?
Again, it must be a superb troll, but just in case :
Lower DPS
No Transfuse
No creepsread
Can't Attack air.
0 armor
Need gas to be pulled of (and even a bit more for "2 at a time").
Less HP;
No, seriously, you're missing the point.
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On June 24 2012 19:03 furo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks its the ability to spread creep with queens only which can later in the game defend vs pushes + add lava to expensions. the synergy is just too high and the cost too little for the zerg. lategame has always been broken vs zergballs once the infester was buffed insanely. Yamato while behind in eco vs the zerg who teches double air upgrade? are you kidding me? terran in midgame to lategame can be happy to have 3 bases, and you cant invest in any tech switches without dying.
you need to try pushing with marauders, rines and hellions early game to contain the Z, you can't expect to just build 6-8 hellions and contain like the old days
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On June 24 2012 19:12 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 19:03 furo wrote:On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks its the ability to spread creep with queens only which can later in the game defend vs pushes + add lava to expensions. the synergy is just too high and the cost too little for the zerg. lategame has always been broken vs zergballs once the infester was buffed insanely. Yamato while behind in eco vs the zerg who teches double air upgrade? are you kidding me? terran in midgame to lategame can be happy to have 3 bases, and you cant invest in any tech switches without dying. you need to try pushing with marauders, rines and hellions early game to contain the Z, you can't expect to just build 6-8 hellions and contain like the old days
yes, i do all-ins and dont play macro.
but i dont want to
zerg has his 3rd up at ~7min unless they are <diamond and the push you name with the hellion opener (stim delayed) hits at 8-9min.
the 3rd CC will not go up with this push before the push, so you take your 3rd at 11min or something if the push did some damage, if not just write gg.
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if you mean the rax, cc, fax, rax rax rax build with double tech lab on raxes and two gas only.
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1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this.
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On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this.
I was about to write something, but meh.. I'll let players that understeand the game better than me and you to eat you alive.. :D
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On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this.
When you have a match-up that is nearly 50/50 winrate and turn it into 70/30 with one single change, is it really a metagame issue?
I mean, it didn't take people a month to conclude that reapers were broken.
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On June 24 2012 19:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this. When you have a match-up that is nearly 50/50 winrate and turn it into 70/30 with one single change, is it really a metagame issue? I mean, it didn't take people a month to conclude that reapers were broken.
got a source to back up those statistics?
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On June 24 2012 19:46 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 19:34 Bagi wrote:On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this. When you have a match-up that is nearly 50/50 winrate and turn it into 70/30 with one single change, is it really a metagame issue? I mean, it didn't take people a month to conclude that reapers were broken. got a source to back up those statistics?
I suggest reading OP.
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On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this.
How can you adapt when every build has been nerfed? Reactor hellion was the last opener Terran had that wasn't nerfed in some way. Now we're forced to play vs zergs that start the game off with a built in economic lead and there is nothing you can do about it. Everyone keeps claiming Zerg > terran in the late game, well thats because Zerg players are allowed to be as greedy as they want and there is nothing a terran player can do to stop it.
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On June 24 2012 19:49 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 19:46 mememolly wrote:On June 24 2012 19:34 Bagi wrote:On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this. When you have a match-up that is nearly 50/50 winrate and turn it into 70/30 with one single change, is it really a metagame issue? I mean, it didn't take people a month to conclude that reapers were broken. got a source to back up those statistics? I suggest reading OP.
i have, no statistics there buddy
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On June 24 2012 19:51 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 19:49 Everlong wrote:On June 24 2012 19:46 mememolly wrote:On June 24 2012 19:34 Bagi wrote:On June 24 2012 19:23 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
1 month is too short to judge metagame and strategy adjustments.
We must be patient and wait a little longer to see terrans properly adapt to this. When you have a match-up that is nearly 50/50 winrate and turn it into 70/30 with one single change, is it really a metagame issue? I mean, it didn't take people a month to conclude that reapers were broken. got a source to back up those statistics? I suggest reading OP. i have, no statistics there buddy
Then I suggest reading it again - this time including the spoilers. Or you go to the liquipedia page, enter GSL and add up the GSTL results, the GSL S3 up&down results and the GSL Season 3 Code A qualifiers and the GSL season 3 code S.
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On June 24 2012 17:46 andropopp wrote:
idra said hes experiencing a style on ladder where terrans go mass MMM tankless and add in ravens later with their gas and he says its really powerful. This is a idea ive been thinking about for a while now because if you spent your gas on ravens instead of tanks you could just get 3-3 bio and you dont need mech or air upgrades and extra gas is in ravens and medivacs, once bio is 3-3 and you have tons of marines and marauders, you put the marauders in front of marines and spread them good and the huge damage output of 200food of MMM can probably kill 200food of ling/bane quickly. if the zerg has broodlords use HSM or if its pure ling/bane then drop tons of auto turrets and some hsm if he commits to the battle
Idra also baptized himself the great genius of the zerg race when he came to the conclusion that roach-bane all ins of 3 hatch crippled a full bio terran early on.
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I think that there is probably a way for the matchup to balance out if there are no more patches ever, maybe it will involve going pure marine medivac and using ravens with seeker missle to counter banelings/infestors, but it still doesn't change the fact that we lost a lot of great early game interaction between queens hellions spines and speedlings.
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EPT
