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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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gfever
United States180 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:40 Sroobz wrote: Comon dude don't lie. None of these games are GM worthy and none of the players, including you, are GM. Here comes the jump on the bandwagon of credibility. I don't need to explain myself. Its enough for this thread alone. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Having a race as a whole lose viability past a certain point in tech is just stupid design. Small timing windows and tug-of-war balance through the early and mid game is good, but everybody needs SOMETHING they can use to end a game, and right now, Terran has some problems with that. Specifically in TvP, Terran can run the map all game long, beat Protoss out in bases, upgrades and just generally play a better game, but once Protoss gets 3/3 colossus/archon/HT/zealot rolling, it can be REALLY HARD for Terran to put the finishing touches on a well played game. The Thor is a unit that already solves most of these problems. It is good vs zealots, archons, and colossus while generally being rather resillient vs splash damage. The major issue with the Thor is that the HT, which is already countering the bio army, also counter the Thor for free due to feedback. Remove the enrgy bar and scrap that shitty ability, and I think we'll start seeing more Thors in a MU that's been stuck on the same metagame and unit comp for a year now. | ||
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Zoesan
Switzerland141 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:31 Jermstuddog wrote: "Mere mortal levels" means "on the same level as everybody else" a lot more than it means "fuck those bastards" so calm down and stop putting words in my mouth. I said they're a bit weak right now because they are. Everybody should realize that. The whole point I'm trying to make, and I don't even know why I bother anymore, is that as a Zerg player, the new queen feels good, and not in a "hey, not its MY turn to be OP" kind of way, but in a general "this just feels better" kind of way. The problem with Zerg is that early units are hugely detrimental to your viability to win games to the point where as Zerg, its not uncommon to lose games because you did an early attack, it was successful, and you lose anyway because, well, that's how it is... The same goes with defending. See what your opponent is making, make the perfect counter, lose anyway because you had to make units to defend. The queen acting as an early game "safe" unit fixes a giant gaping hole in the Zerg design. Now its time for Blizzard to fix another gaping hole in the game, Terrans endgame units. What the hell, the new queen is fucking ridiculous. On my zerg account I just do what everyone says here: build queens, hold pressure. It actually stopped being fun against most terrans because it's so easy. | ||
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rogzardo
610 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:43 gfever wrote: Here comes the jump on the bandwagon of credibility. I don't need to explain myself. Its enough for this thread alone. I agree that its not really worth it to argue the point, but still, I watched the 4th replay on Cloud Kingdom, and the zerg player did not play well. He only built 3 queens, zero lings, and was not prepared when your cloak banshee came in. I wouldn't call that standard, especially at a GM level. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:16 Ragnarork wrote: Though I would agree on the fact that this would lead to a situation where the early game is based only on macro, why then giving terrans a strong mid-game and a weak late game, and give its opponent all the tools needed to shut down easily that strong mid game ? This. Wouldn't it just make more sense to make massive units immune to feedback? The only units affected by this would be the Thor and BC, and both are high up enough in the tech tree that it wouldn't affect the Terran midgame at all. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:40 Sroobz wrote: Comon dude don't lie. None of these games are GM worthy and none of the players, including you, are GM. What, the play in those replays is definitely GM NA lol. His build is interesting as well, I'm definitely gonna mess around with it. That said, how do you deal with 2 base roach aggression with a build like that? Also none of those players are grabbing a spine. I imagine you threaten a run by with your hellions? Also you don't feel you're behind expanding late like that? In the game vs optik you were down 20 food before your expo even got up....That kinda forces you to kill a lot of drones. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:31 Jermstuddog wrote: "Mere mortal levels" means "on the same level as everybody else" a lot more than it means "fuck those bastards" so calm down and stop putting words in my mouth. I said they're a bit weak right now because they are. Everybody should realize that. The whole point I'm trying to make, and I don't even know why I bother anymore, is that as a Zerg player, the new queen feels good, and not in a "hey, not its MY turn to be OP" kind of way, but in a general "this just feels better" kind of way. The problem with Zerg is that early units are hugely detrimental to your viability to win games to the point where as Zerg, its not uncommon to lose games because you did an early attack, it was successful, and you lose anyway because, well, that's how it is... The same goes with defending. See what your opponent is making, make the perfect counter, lose anyway because you had to make units to defend. The queen acting as an early game "safe" unit fixes a giant gaping hole in the Zerg design. Now its time for Blizzard to fix another gaping hole in the game, Terrans endgame units. And then they wonder why stream viewer numbers are dropping. I hope Blizzard follows your suggestion, and we end up with everyone turtling on 3-4 bases to their lategame army, with viewers and players equally bored with the snoozefest that standard play in every matchup becomes. Then, after teams start dropping sc2 players, and tournaments start transitioning to more popular games (like LoL), maybe Blizzard will take a hint that balancing the game around whiny Zerg players on TL does not make for a good esport at all. :/ | ||
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 25 2012 01:42 toiletCAT wrote: .......was it ever too strong? No one has been able to prove it so far, no. | ||
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 25 2012 01:42 toiletCAT wrote: .......was it ever too strong? mind cairifying on what was ever too strong?? You are being very vauge, and as such there are any number of answers that can fit that question.. | ||
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Rye.
United Kingdom88 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:45 Jermstuddog wrote: @ angu Having a race as a whole lose viability past a certain point in tech is just stupid design. Small timing windows and tug-of-war balance through the early and mid game is good, but everybody needs SOMETHING they can use to end a game, and right now, Terran has some problems with that. Specifically in TvP, Terran can run the map all game long, beat Protoss out in bases, upgrades and just generally play a better game, but once Protoss gets 3/3 colossus/archon/HT/zealot rolling, it can be REALLY HARD for Terran to put the finishing touches on a well played game. The Thor is a unit that already solves most of these problems. It is good vs zealots, archons, and colossus while generally being rather resillient vs splash damage. The major issue with the Thor is that the HT, which is already countering the bio army, also counter the Thor for free due to feedback. Remove the enrgy bar and scrap that shitty ability, and I think we'll start seeing more Thors in a MU that's been stuck on the same metagame and unit comp for a year now. I agree with a lot of what you said... but why cant all races just use the midgame units to end the game... I dont like the current Tier 3. For zerg it is a goal; get lots of tier 3 because it is powerful. Best option for zerg. For protoss its a goal; get lots of tier 3 because it is powerful. Best option for protoss. For terran its; i'll die if i try to get loads of tier 3. My T3 sux anyway; best option...move out early, try to damage before they have T3. If the T3 wasnt as good, people wouldnt save up for it, so action would come sooner. The midgame would extend and last longer. Players would try to get small gains here and there, totalling up to a sizeable advantage they can push to try to end the game. It would be more back and forth and require more skill from both sides. Think about muta/ling vs marine/tank. It was exciting with lots of action. The current TvZ is dull. TvP is dull. PvZ is dull. Its all because the tier 3 units are boring, but are too powerful not to get. Of course, the midgame units would need balancing. Terrans bio is very powerful, especially upgraded and with medivac support. With the current creep spread we're seeing due to more early queens, hydras may come out. We'd see more inventive play as players try to get small gains, delay expos, upgrades etc.. anything just to get a tiny bit ahead. | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On June 24 2012 20:00 Tsubbi wrote: btw you whiny terrans korean tlpd shows a perfect 50% winratio again in june (41-41) so far Look at the players playing the games and you'll understand why. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
Think about muta/ling vs marine/tank. It was exciting with lots of action. The current TvZ is dull. TvP is dull. PvZ is dull. Its all because the tier 3 units are boring, but are too powerful not to get. Agreed but this massive turtle and tech style is the way it's played right now because of how massive the maps have gotten and also because Blizzard keeps stepping in and changing the meta game with patches. The original intention was obviously for players to start fighting off one base but the community (myself included) claimed the game was too cheesy so they started nerfing all the openers I really do think the current games we get are almost always boring. Sometimes we get a crazy action packed game but generally it's one death ball vs another and the game is usually decided with one engagement. | ||
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
On June 25 2012 01:47 sGs.Stregon wrote: mind cairifying on what was ever too strong?? You are being very vauge, and as such there are any number of answers that can fit that question.. "1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]?" ....I'm obviously talking about the Queen. Wtf, dood | ||
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sGs.Stregon
United States161 Posts
On June 25 2012 02:00 toiletCAT wrote: "1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]?" ....I'm obviously talking about the Queen. Wtf, dood Hey man.. That sounds like fundamental reasoning skills there.. I didnt realize i lacked them so much 0o. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 25 2012 02:00 toiletCAT wrote: "1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]?" ....I'm obviously talking about the Queen. Wtf, dood Oh. I thought you were talking about Hellion openers. Queen is obviously too strong right now. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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toiletCAT
Qatar284 Posts
On June 25 2012 02:30 Snowbear wrote: I am watching mkp's stream. He is playing against a zerg, and his maxed army gets owned by ultra ling bling infestor, again and again and again. So sad Yeah, Queen so strong. | ||
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Aerohank
12 Posts
His zerg opponant still outmacrod him. TvZ is so messed up. Blizzard wants us to play macro games, and then makes it impossible for terrans. I'm losing all my TvZs at the moment even against low masters, eventhough it was my best matchup last season at a 1k master level. The queen buff just gives them 10~20% more economy im the midgame because they no longer need units to defend early pressure. And on top of that they get more creep spread in the midgame. I'm going to look for some 1 base all-ins and do them every game untill HotS is out and zergs will finaly be made balanced again. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
You really don't make the connection there? :/ | ||
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