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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 25 2012 03:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:29 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 25 2012 03:23 PauseBreak wrote:
Protoss has to wall off! Terran has to wall off! So why does Zerg get the exemption? Zerg can't attack from behind their wall Zerg can't forcefield to protect their wall Zerg can't mass-repair their wall indefinitely Turtle 1/2-base zerg is much weaker than the protoss/terran counterpart There are probably more reasons. Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that smart sim-city is entirely feasible against Terran, and lots of Zergs have shown themselves capable of doing it. So why not? No need to entirely wall off; just place Evo/Spine/Queen smartly and Hellion runbys aren't a problem.
It's why zerg doesn't "wall off". Sure simcity works to some extent but it's nowhere close as effective as for instance a terran wall. Queens are also better at defending multiple bases than simcity is (Zerg tends to expand further than the natural).
Not to mention that any kind of hellion-deterring simcity is simply benefitting the terran should he decide not to push with hellions (say, marauders instead. now you can't get a decent concave because the evos are in the way)
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On June 25 2012 03:34 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:29 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 25 2012 03:23 PauseBreak wrote:
Protoss has to wall off! Terran has to wall off! So why does Zerg get the exemption? Zerg can't attack from behind their wall Zerg can't forcefield to protect their wall Zerg can't mass-repair their wall indefinitely Turtle 1/2-base zerg is much weaker than the protoss/terran counterpart There are probably more reasons. Ling run-by is the only reason I could think of, literally. I don't know about TvP, but do they wall? I think T might wall against Zealots. But walling is a bad in a match up where you want surface area for your ranged units vs other ranged units amirite? i'm just ignorant at this game
Walling in TvP is very common, I would personally say its standard.
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On June 25 2012 03:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:29 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 25 2012 03:23 PauseBreak wrote:
Protoss has to wall off! Terran has to wall off! So why does Zerg get the exemption? Zerg can't attack from behind their wall Zerg can't forcefield to protect their wall Zerg can't mass-repair their wall indefinitely Turtle 1/2-base zerg is much weaker than the protoss/terran counterpart There are probably more reasons. Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that smart sim-city is entirely feasible against Terran, and lots of Zergs have shown themselves capable of doing it. So why not? No need to entirely wall off; just place Evo/Spine/Queen smartly and Hellion runbys aren't a problem.
I agree wholly that Zergs need their open space for tactical maneuvers.
Of course I didn't mean a strict cookie cutter wall off, but you got the idea of what I meant. Just a few smart blding and unit placements could mean the difference of 10 workers fried to maybe 2 or none at all.
I think the Queen buff was just slightly too much.
Or maybe its that the Creep mechanic is too much? People are good at macro, its not that difficult, and Creep spread is honestly not that hard to maintain. The fact that Zergs are able to see a force coming from little under half the map away to position a fast moving army on Creep seems a little unfair.
Both Terran and Protoss must hold towers or have sacrifical offerings to hold vision. While Creep is essentially free and map vision is given unless specific time is taken to burn a scan to clear it out.
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On June 25 2012 03:36 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:34 Incognoto wrote:On June 25 2012 03:29 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 25 2012 03:23 PauseBreak wrote:
Protoss has to wall off! Terran has to wall off! So why does Zerg get the exemption? Zerg can't attack from behind their wall Zerg can't forcefield to protect their wall Zerg can't mass-repair their wall indefinitely Turtle 1/2-base zerg is much weaker than the protoss/terran counterpart There are probably more reasons. Ling run-by is the only reason I could think of, literally. I don't know about TvP, but do they wall? I think T might wall against Zealots. But walling is a bad in a match up where you want surface area for your ranged units vs other ranged units amirite? i'm just ignorant at this game Walling in TvP is very common, I would personally say its standard.
Really? who walls off in TvP lol
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I think something terrans need to start doing is all of them need to start (ab)using the mousescroll trick
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309344
ghosts if you think about it can STILL perform the role they used to perform as long as you make up for the nerf by abusing the mousescroll trick
lategame in 200food battles with tons of ghosts, i NEVER saw mvp unload all the energy on his ghosts normally about 50% of his ghosts energy was remaining because all the ghosts were 200energy before the fight started
only time i saw mvp unload all his ghost energy was at the late-midgame when his ghosts first hit the field and didnt have 200energy on 20ghosts. but if terrans could turtle and reach endgame where his ghosts have 200 energy then the nerf almost never existed if you abuse the mousewheel scroll trick
the ghost nerf reduced snipe damage by 50%. however because all the ghosts had 50% energy remaining, the mousescroll wheel trick could give you back that damage
if mvp just abuses the mousescroll wheel trick, he will fire off his snipes 800% faster, allowing him to use up the 50% energy he had leftover on his ghosts
what does this mean? it means even with the snipe nerf, mvp could make ghosts perform at the level it was doing PRE PATCH, and it would deal the same damage EVEN FASTER (400% faster to be exact) giving a few extra seconds to micro other things in battle
terrans you know what to do
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On June 25 2012 03:41 PauseBreak wrote:
Or maybe its that the Creep mechanic is too much? People are good at macro, its not that difficult, and Creep spread is honestly not that hard to maintain.
Ever tried it? It's a macro mechanic of its own.
On June 25 2012 03:41 PauseBreak wrote:
The fact that Zergs are able to see a force coming from little under half the map away to position a fast moving army on Creep seems a little unfair.
Protoss are capable of the same with observers. While terran has no real counterpart to this, they're able to freely take a look at anywhere on the map without the other player being able to do anything about it.
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Malak I saw that >.> That wasn't very nice.
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On June 25 2012 03:42 maLaK1 wrote:
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Nice quick change. But I read it, and NO they weren't tears. Wasn't it a list of the early harassments Terran used to do?
Its not a matter of being "more creative". There are only so many units in a game with a combination early game to put pressure of a 3 base droning zerg with a 6 Queen opener.
Calm down, its not a matter of ethically integrity , its a game.
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On June 25 2012 03:44 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:41 PauseBreak wrote:
Or maybe its that the Creep mechanic is too much? People are good at macro, its not that difficult, and Creep spread is honestly not that hard to maintain. Ever tried it? It's a macro mechanic of its own. Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:41 PauseBreak wrote:
The fact that Zergs are able to see a force coming from little under half the map away to position a fast moving army on Creep seems a little unfair. Protoss are capable of the same with observers. While terran has no real counterpart to this, they're able to freely take a look at anywhere on the map without the other player being able to do anything about it.
Not true. Protoss/Zerg always liked to throw out the "Terran has mules to keep up with our superior economy". So by this we assume that to stay on equal economic footing with Protoss/Zerg, Terran has to spend all their OC energy on mules, which means we actually have no scouting info short of sending units around the map
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On June 25 2012 03:45 PauseBreak wrote:Nice quick change. But I read it, and NO they weren't tears. Wasn't it a list of the early harassments Terran used to do? Its not a matter of being "more creative". There are only so many units in a game with a combination early game to put pressure of a 3 base droning zerg with a 6 Queen opener. Calm down, its not a matter of ethically integrity , its a game.
Yeah I saw it too, actually had it in a quoted reply but then deleted it as I decided not to feed the troll as he knows how ridiculous the TvZ situation is (everyone knows its just stupid right now) but he's just trying to cause trouble.
Edit: oops, double post, apologies
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On June 24 2012 23:49 covetousrat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 23:07 soupchicken wrote:On June 24 2012 21:16 Rokoz wrote:On June 24 2012 18:50 TheSamuraj wrote:On June 24 2012 18:18 svefnleysi wrote:
I think people are looking at TvZ right now with the wrong mindset.
Zerg is favored these days, but I don't think it's because of the queens. "Oh you made an extra 8 hellions? Guess I'm dead now..." is not a fun way to play or watch the game.
I believe the problem lies more in the late game than in the early to late game.
Zerg can easily switch from Broodlords to Ultralisks in the lategame while Terran has to react seperately to both. Make a bunch of vikings to counter my broodlords? Have fun with those vikings when I show up with 8 ultras two minutes later. Same thing with tanks/marauders and broodlords.
I believe the underlying problem is the ghost nerf. Both the snipe and EMP nerf.
I'll throw this out there while I'm at it: I'd love to see Terrans experiment with Yamato battle cruiser switches. It seems like a good idea in terms of both brood lords and ultralisks The problem with BC's is that u need to start upgrading ship weapons and armor early in the game so that u have 3/3 (or 2/2) BCs when u are making them. If u dont upgrade u will do 3 damage per shot against fully upgraded ultras. Yamato does do 300 damage but for each ultralisk u need two battlecruisers (if yamatoing). I like the idea of going BCs but ultras could just stampede past your bcs. Against broodlords they have to get past the corrupters which do extra damage against massive targets, so vikings required. Also mass zergling. I personally think that Blizzard should consider merging Mech and Air upgrades in a single upgrade, it would help immensely in TvZ, without hurting TvP that much. I also feel it would make TvT even more interesting. I really like this idea Hmm this seems to be a very interesting idea from a Protoss point of view and I personally like it. However, this can be a bit balance breaking at this point with HOTS releasing soon. If there ever was this change, it should come in HOTS. Next thing you'll suggest is that broodlords should get melds upgrades and air upgrades and that's just retarded 
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On June 25 2012 03:47 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:44 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 25 2012 03:41 PauseBreak wrote:
Or maybe its that the Creep mechanic is too much? People are good at macro, its not that difficult, and Creep spread is honestly not that hard to maintain. Ever tried it? It's a macro mechanic of its own. On June 25 2012 03:41 PauseBreak wrote:
The fact that Zergs are able to see a force coming from little under half the map away to position a fast moving army on Creep seems a little unfair. Protoss are capable of the same with observers. While terran has no real counterpart to this, they're able to freely take a look at anywhere on the map without the other player being able to do anything about it. Not true. Protoss/Zerg always liked to throw out the "Terran has mules to keep up with our superior economy". So by this we assume that to stay on equal economic footing with Protoss/Zerg, Terran has to spend all their OC energy on mules, which means we actually have no scouting info short of sending units around the map
Well, not only are terran units more cost efficient, by the time it would be a problem that creep can give vision over your push, i'm sure you've got enough SCV to spare the extra income you'd gain by using a mule and instead spend a scan instead (Or more, if you would have additional OC by that point)
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On June 25 2012 03:13 Evangelist wrote:
Having viable T3 units for every single race (hint: fix BCs, remove energy from Thors and fix carriers) would change the metagame more towards the midgame again. When there's a T3 composition for a race that is significantly more powerful than another, you lose the midgame. When T3 compositions match blow for blow, there is much less impetus on rushing to the lategame - you have to get an advantage in the midgame first and the transition to a lategame becomes much more obvious and much weaker for both sides.
The reason we used to have the entertaining muta/marine TvZ is because of that - zergs hadn't figured out their ridiculously powerful lategame transitions yet and either wanted to win during the midgame or delayed their lategame as a coup de grace. Protoss deathballs have always been ridiculous, but even at its worst, the Protoss deathball can be handled. BL/infestor simply can't.
This may fix the balance, but not the fact that tier 3 is boring as hell to watch and play. for the most part, T3 units are a-move.
Having blink micro, storms, dodging storms, snipe, emp, kiting, splitting, fungal, neural parasite, feedback, drops,.etc.. the list goes on, but they all require far more skill than Tier 3 and are far more enjoyable to watch and play.
Fungal wouldnt be so painful if you could actually get close enough to snipe, but broodlords + overseers completely shut snipe down.
Nerf all Tier 3 into oblivion and balance the midgame units. = more fun + more skill
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On June 25 2012 03:43 roymarthyup wrote:I think something terrans need to start doing is all of them need to start (ab)using the mousescroll trick http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309344ghosts if you think about it can STILL perform the role they used to perform as long as you make up for the nerf by abusing the mousescroll trick lategame in 200food battles with tons of ghosts, i NEVER saw mvp unload all the energy on his ghosts normally about 50% of his ghosts energy was remaining because all the ghosts were 200energy before the fight started only time i saw mvp unload all his ghost energy was at the late-midgame when his ghosts first hit the field and didnt have 200energy on 20ghosts. but if terrans could turtle and reach endgame where his ghosts have 200 energy then the nerf almost never existed if you abuse the mousewheel scroll trick the ghost nerf reduced snipe damage by 50%. however because all the ghosts had 50% energy remaining, the mousescroll wheel trick could give you back that damage if mvp just abuses the mousescroll wheel trick, he will fire off his snipes 800% faster, allowing him to use up the 50% energy he had leftover on his ghosts what does this mean? it means even with the snipe nerf, mvp could make ghosts perform at the level it was doing PRE PATCH, and it would deal the same damage EVEN FASTER (400% faster to be exact) giving a few extra seconds to micro other things in battle terrans you know what to do
Most of the time, you are not allowed to modify window setting in tournament computers...
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On June 25 2012 03:52 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:43 roymarthyup wrote:I think something terrans need to start doing is all of them need to start (ab)using the mousescroll trick http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309344ghosts if you think about it can STILL perform the role they used to perform as long as you make up for the nerf by abusing the mousescroll trick lategame in 200food battles with tons of ghosts, i NEVER saw mvp unload all the energy on his ghosts normally about 50% of his ghosts energy was remaining because all the ghosts were 200energy before the fight started only time i saw mvp unload all his ghost energy was at the late-midgame when his ghosts first hit the field and didnt have 200energy on 20ghosts. but if terrans could turtle and reach endgame where his ghosts have 200 energy then the nerf almost never existed if you abuse the mousewheel scroll trick the ghost nerf reduced snipe damage by 50%. however because all the ghosts had 50% energy remaining, the mousescroll wheel trick could give you back that damage if mvp just abuses the mousescroll wheel trick, he will fire off his snipes 800% faster, allowing him to use up the 50% energy he had leftover on his ghosts what does this mean? it means even with the snipe nerf, mvp could make ghosts perform at the level it was doing PRE PATCH, and it would deal the same damage EVEN FASTER (400% faster to be exact) giving a few extra seconds to micro other things in battle terrans you know what to do Most of the time, you are not allowed to modify window setting in tournament computers...
actually most tournaments you are told to bring your drivers for your mouse/keyboard
all the driver does is make mousescroll a leftclick so you can get off 100 leftclicks in a second
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On June 25 2012 03:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:29 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 25 2012 03:23 PauseBreak wrote:
Protoss has to wall off! Terran has to wall off! So why does Zerg get the exemption? Zerg can't attack from behind their wall Zerg can't forcefield to protect their wall Zerg can't mass-repair their wall indefinitely Turtle 1/2-base zerg is much weaker than the protoss/terran counterpart There are probably more reasons. Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that smart sim-city is entirely feasible against Terran, and lots of Zergs have shown themselves capable of doing it. So why not? No need to entirely wall off; just place Evo/Spine/Queen smartly and Hellion runbys aren't a problem.
NOBODY sim cities against Terran anymore because you cannot take a third. Investing that much in static D is basically screaming to your opponent "hey u can go take a third now and im not going to do anything about it because im either going 2 base muta or 2 base infestor)
Queen buff leads to strong Zerg mid game leading to OP Zerg end game.
There ARE builds that abuse 5-6 queen openings, but that's not really the issue. The issue is Terran late game is awful. Remove Thor energy (for vP). Buff BCs. Buff Ravens again, or revert Snipe nerf. Why Blizzard aren't doing these things is a complete fucking mystery to me. It's like they don't understand the game sometimes...
This coming from a Zerg player.
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On June 25 2012 03:50 Rye. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:13 Evangelist wrote:
Having viable T3 units for every single race (hint: fix BCs, remove energy from Thors and fix carriers) would change the metagame more towards the midgame again. When there's a T3 composition for a race that is significantly more powerful than another, you lose the midgame. When T3 compositions match blow for blow, there is much less impetus on rushing to the lategame - you have to get an advantage in the midgame first and the transition to a lategame becomes much more obvious and much weaker for both sides.
The reason we used to have the entertaining muta/marine TvZ is because of that - zergs hadn't figured out their ridiculously powerful lategame transitions yet and either wanted to win during the midgame or delayed their lategame as a coup de grace. Protoss deathballs have always been ridiculous, but even at its worst, the Protoss deathball can be handled. BL/infestor simply can't. This may fix the balance, but not the fact that tier 3 is boring as hell to watch and play. for the most part, T3 units are a-move. Having blink micro, storms, dodging storms, snipe, emp, kiting, splitting, fungal, neural parasite, feedback, drops,.etc.. the list goes on, but they all require far more skill than Tier 3 and are far more enjoyable to watch and play. Fungal wouldnt be so painful if you could actually get close enough to snipe, but broodlords + overseers completely shut snipe down. Nerf all Tier 3 into oblivion and balance the midgame units. = more fun + more skill
This is the most ridiculously idiotic thing I've ever read.
Go a-move BLs against a competent Terran and see if that gets you out of Diamond. Go a-move carriers in BW. Go a-move Ultras into siege lines. Go a-move BLs against mothership armies.
Blizzard needs to make Tier 3 strong as fuck WHILE being micro intensive. But they are lazy.
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On June 25 2012 03:54 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:52 canikizu wrote:On June 25 2012 03:43 roymarthyup wrote:I think something terrans need to start doing is all of them need to start (ab)using the mousescroll trick http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309344ghosts if you think about it can STILL perform the role they used to perform as long as you make up for the nerf by abusing the mousescroll trick lategame in 200food battles with tons of ghosts, i NEVER saw mvp unload all the energy on his ghosts normally about 50% of his ghosts energy was remaining because all the ghosts were 200energy before the fight started only time i saw mvp unload all his ghost energy was at the late-midgame when his ghosts first hit the field and didnt have 200energy on 20ghosts. but if terrans could turtle and reach endgame where his ghosts have 200 energy then the nerf almost never existed if you abuse the mousewheel scroll trick the ghost nerf reduced snipe damage by 50%. however because all the ghosts had 50% energy remaining, the mousescroll wheel trick could give you back that damage if mvp just abuses the mousescroll wheel trick, he will fire off his snipes 800% faster, allowing him to use up the 50% energy he had leftover on his ghosts what does this mean? it means even with the snipe nerf, mvp could make ghosts perform at the level it was doing PRE PATCH, and it would deal the same damage EVEN FASTER (400% faster to be exact) giving a few extra seconds to micro other things in battle terrans you know what to do Most of the time, you are not allowed to modify window setting in tournament computers... actually most tournaments you are told to bring your drivers for your mouse/keyboard all the driver does is make mousescroll a leftclick so you can get off 100 leftclicks in a second
i figured itd be illegal by now. is it actually allowed ? if so gonna abuse that lol even tho i dislike the idea
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EPT
