EPTToo much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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D_bo
United States50 Posts
Too much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players | ||
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
Prepatch i had 45% TvZ winrate, it was also then my worst matchup, but then i could do pressure and kill bad zergs with Polt's hellion+medivac+marine timing attack and deny creep while doing it etc. Today i have played 11 games, 3-8 and TvZ is 0-7. Maybe in HotS zerg would require some skills in battle, instead of being "macro" race that only requires to hit injects. User was warned for this post | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:12 FakeDeath wrote: Nah It was the stupid 1 proxy rax reaper to 5 rax reaper that was insanely broken during earlier GSL Seasons that zergs started crying heavily. Coupled with the small and shitty maps(Steps of War,Lost Temple(abusive siege tank position),Jungle Basin). Terran was really really strong back then.XD If i am not mistaken,wasn't BFH patched because of TvT mech?. I am pretty sure it is. Hi FakeDeath I was answering the quoted post, which revolved around BFH play. For your example with 5 rax reapers, I can only agree with you. And back in the time I personally was all for the stim nerf, and the bunker time change. Zergs were complaining about stim bio timings and 5 rax reapers, and the were 100% right there. If I'm not mistaken, the comments along with the patchnotes for nerfing BFHs stated that they caused trouble in TvT mech. And that was true in some ways. But the point in time when this patch hit, should have been short time after "SlayerS MLG". Which was quite shocking, cause this strategy caught everybody offguard. But my memory could trick me here, so maybe someone knows better and is willing to share his infos. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
how about giving vikings a 20 second buildtime? imbalanced? really in the state of free 3base zerg? I dont think so how about giving bc's a 40 second buildtime to contest ultras and make carriers 60 to compensate? how about making banshee/raven/voidrays 25 second buildtime? would zerg really have a problem with it against toss/terran? doesnt seem like it in these days of free 3base zerg theres other ways to fix tvz matchup than to revert the queen change | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
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BaconofWar
United States369 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:14 D_bo wrote: Food for thought, perhaps the reason why T's late game appear to be lacking is the fact in the past they didn't have to get that stage in the game vs Z that often and don't have the skills yet to deal with it. Too much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players You can't actually believe in this, can you? Tell me this: if ALL terran players were just doing early game shenanigans, then when did zergs learn to play lategame ZvT? You have to understand that whenever a zerg plays a lategame ZvT, a terran does the same. You cannot claim that one side has more experience dealing with certain situations. Oh, and terrans have tried to go pure macro "playing for the lategame"-style of play forever now. It doesnt work. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:27 roymarthyup wrote: I think terran should be buffed instead of queen change reverted how about giving vikings a 20 second buildtime? imbalanced? really in the state of free 3base zerg? I dont think so how about giving bc's a 40 second buildtime to contest ultras and make carriers 60 to compensate? how about making banshee/raven/voidrays 25 second buildtime? would zerg really have a problem with it against toss/terran? doesnt seem like it in these days of free 3base zerg theres other ways to fix tvz matchup than to revert the queen change Ever tried holding off a 3gate void ray all in when doing 1rax FE or CC first? if so, then you would know making voidrays 12.5 sec (!!!!!!) build time with chrono would make toss absurdly OP. You could have 5-6 voidrays when you pusy then, vs the terrans 10-15 slow immobile and weak marines... | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
 .Can't really say anything about the balance since I'm not a pro, but it's pretty clear hellion openings are way worse then they used to be. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:29 Thylacine wrote: Ever tried holding off a 3gate void ray all in when doing 1rax FE or CC first? if so, then you would know making voidrays 12.5 sec (!!!!!!) build time with chrono would make toss absurdly OP. You could have 5-6 voidrays when you pusy then, vs the terrans 10-15 slow immobile and weak marines... toss wouldnt be able to get much because they still cost 150gas. scout no expo from toss create 7 raxes and voidrays die voidrays are murked easily by marines a 25 second voidray would not imbalance TvP at all period. they still cost 150gas voidray timings would easily be countered even if they are produced faster the gas is still limiting factor in exchange terran gets 25 second banshee, 20 second vikings (10 with reactor), 25 second raven, 40 second BC's which would help tvp and tvz alot. voidrays are weak as hell even if gateways could warpgate them in. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:29 Thylacine wrote: Ever tried holding off a 3gate void ray all in when doing 1rax FE or CC first? if so, then you would know making voidrays 12.5 sec (!!!!!!) build time with chrono would make toss absurdly OP. You could have 5-6 voidrays when you pusy then, vs the terrans 10-15 slow immobile and weak marines... That'd actually be a 16 second VR with Chronoboost. Not that it takes away from your point, but most people still have trouble understanding that building things 50% faster does not mean they complete in half the original time. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:28 BaconofWar wrote: To quote IdrA, "Queens still tickle you, just from a little farther away" OH NOES; the zerg bad guy who is at 20~ % winrate overall said his race (surprise!) is still not good enough, the patch didn't help! Queens still only tickle! Seriously, why bother quoting such bull****t? Idra's been a whiner since 2010 and ofcourse hes not satisfied until zerg is at 100% winrate and he wins 3 GSL's and 2 MLG's minimum. Oh and queens weren't meant to kill, just destroy hellions and turn the whole map into Char (100% covered in creep) and roll inject the hatcheries so the zerg can then pump out mass ultras and destroy everything in the way. Sorry if I sound cynical but this is how it is, and this is how it will be unless blizzard revert the queen change/buff terran. | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:28 BaconofWar wrote: To quote IdrA, "Queens still tickle you, just from a little farther away" Quoting Idra on balance issues is somewhat delicate, to say the least. Did you follow this thread? Because there were people here who actually posted the queens stats. I would recommend you to take a look at costs in relation to unit health an dps. Maybe you would be surprised about the strenght of the queens "tickle". | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:33 roymarthyup wrote: toss wouldnt be able to get much because they still cost 150gas. scout no expo from toss create 7 raxes and voidrays die voidrays are murked easily by marines a 25 second voidray would not imbalance TvP at all period. they still cost 150gas voidray timings would easily be countered even if they are produced faster the gas is still limiting factor in exchange terran gets 25 second banshee, 20 second vikings (10 with reactor), 25 second raven, 40 second BC's which would help tvp and tvz alot. voidrays are weak as hell even if gateways could warpgate them in. im willing to play a custom steppes of war map where voidrays are 25 second buildtime and thats the only change, with anyone here to show that 25 second buildtime voidrays would not break TvP at all and would still be easily countered because 150 gas is the limiting factor i will do a 1rax expand every game and once i scout the toss is not expanding drop a ton of raxes and murk the voidrays easily. even if warpgates could warp in voidrays they would still suck against terran. reason im suggesting 25 second voidrays is because if vikings are made 20 seconds and banshee/raven is 25 seconds and bc is 40 seconds, then you gotta compensate protoss too you might say "thats retarded 20 second vikings and 25 second banshees. pure retarded. just revert the queen buff" and im just saying if blizzard absolutely intends to keep the queen buff and free 3base zerg then give toss/terran some lategame buildtime buffs please | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
This is coming from a zerg player. The problem isn't the Queen. It is that Queen buffs allows zerg to reach the lategame much easier and faster and more safer which zerg excels at the lategame that terran has trouble dealing with. To compete with zerg lategame, i think Terran could used a bit of buff at their late game units(Ghost,BCs especially,Ravens). Though i dunno how this will affect TvP. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:41 FakeDeath wrote: Personally,i think Blizzard should buff the ravens(maybe HSM cost less,research faster or less raven cost or something) or make BCs viable or buff Ghosts snipe by a bit. This is coming from a zerg player. The problem isn't the Queen. It is that Queen buffs allows zerg to reach the lategame much easier and faster and more safer which zerg excels at the lategame that terran has trouble dealing with. To compete with zerg lategame, i think Terran could used a bit of buff at their late game units(Ghost,BCs especially,Ravens). Though i dunno how this will affect TvP. The queen IS a problem! It makes it waaay too easy to get to the late game. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
i will do a 1rax expand every game and once i scout the toss is not expanding drop a ton of raxes and murk the voidrays easily. even if warpgates could warp in voidrays they would still suck against terran Only to see he went fast colossus on 1 base. You should at least scan his base once before putting down the raxes to make it a bit realistic. Annyway:Agree mostly with your points, building times of other then tier 1 units are definatly an isue for protoss and terran. We cant make 6 starports or 6 robo bays, its way to expensive and so you left with the problem of production time in the end game | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:45 Rassy wrote: "im willing to play a custom steppes of war map where voidrays are 25 second buildtime and thats the only change, with anyone here to show that 25 second buildtime voidrays would not break TvP at all and would still be easily countered because 150 gas is the limiting factor" i will do a 1rax expand every game and once i scout the toss is not expanding drop a ton of raxes and murk the voidrays easily. even if warpgates could warp in voidrays they would still suck against terran Only to see he went fast colossus on 1 base. You should at least scan his base once before putting down the raxes to make it a bit realistic. Annyway:Agree mostly with your points, building times of other then tier 1 units are definatly an isue for protoss and terran. We cant make 6 starports or 6 robo bays, its way to expensive and so you left with the problem of production time in the end game while i appreciate your arguments, 1base collossus would get pwned because i would easily have stim and MM off 2 bases by then and its over. if the toss expands im still way ahead and i guess we are both agree'ing with eachother. i said "i think instead of reverting queen buffs why not just buff lategame buildtimes for terran?" and your pretty much saying you agree i guess however i then said something that might make terrans whine and that is "if you buff lategame terran buildtimes you gotta do it for toss too and in equal strength amounts" | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:44 Sroobz wrote: The queen IS a problem! It makes it waaay too easy to get to the late game. Sigh.Did you even read my post? That's why i suggest buffing Terran late game composition a bit to compete with the zergs late game. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:44 Sroobz wrote: The queen IS a problem! It makes it waaay too easy to get to the late game. It's a problem but not the problem. If Terran had a late game there wouldn't be an issue. Terran needs buffs all around, BCs need buffs, ravens need a buff in terms of cost, ghosts need to not be useless as fuck. Something needs to happen because that is the problem in all our match-ups, we have no late game. TvP is not imba nor is it balanced either. It's just you have to avoid the lategame cause we have none. Give Terran a lategame army. Buff the T2.5 and T3 units. Make them worth using. That's what the solution should be. | ||
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