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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 25 2012 06:29 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:14 D_bo wrote:
Food for thought, perhaps the reason why T's late game appear to be lacking is the fact in the past they didn't have to get that stage in the game vs Z that often and don't have the skills yet to deal with it.
Too much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players
You can't actually believe in this, can you? Tell me this: if ALL terran players were just doing early game shenanigans, then when did zergs learn to play lategame ZvT? You have to understand that whenever a zerg plays a lategame ZvT, a terran does the same. You cannot claim that one side has more experience dealing with certain situations. Oh, and terrans have tried to go pure macro "playing for the lategame"-style of play forever now. It doesnt work.
I didn't say all, and not all T's are complaining.. For the ones who are complaining, perhaps what I said is true
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On June 25 2012 06:52 D_bo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:29 Bagi wrote:On June 25 2012 06:14 D_bo wrote:
Food for thought, perhaps the reason why T's late game appear to be lacking is the fact in the past they didn't have to get that stage in the game vs Z that often and don't have the skills yet to deal with it.
Too much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players
You can't actually believe in this, can you? Tell me this: if ALL terran players were just doing early game shenanigans, then when did zergs learn to play lategame ZvT? You have to understand that whenever a zerg plays a lategame ZvT, a terran does the same. You cannot claim that one side has more experience dealing with certain situations. Oh, and terrans have tried to go pure macro "playing for the lategame"-style of play forever now. It doesnt work. I didn't say all, and not all T's are complaining.. For the ones who are complaining, perhaps what I said is true
You don't know much about the game do you?
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This patch has destroyed the game for my part. Playing terran now is like trying to win a soccer game in a wheelchair. Its possible but your hands are going to be tired as hell. Every time I beat a zerg I have like 30 APM more then him. Im getting paired against shitty platinum zergs and barely winning. When I was winning against masters zergs before the patch. (dia/low masters player)
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On June 25 2012 06:49 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:45 Rassy wrote:
"im willing to play a custom steppes of war map where voidrays are 25 second buildtime and thats the only change, with anyone here to show that 25 second buildtime voidrays would not break TvP at all and would still be easily countered because 150 gas is the limiting factor"
i will do a 1rax expand every game and once i scout the toss is not expanding drop a ton of raxes and murk the voidrays easily. even if warpgates could warp in voidrays they would still suck against terran
Only to see he went fast colossus on 1 base.
You should at least scan his base once before putting down the raxes to make it a bit realistic.
Annyway:Agree mostly with your points, building times of other then tier 1 units are definatly an isue for protoss and terran.
We cant make 6 starports or 6 robo bays, its way to expensive and so you left with the problem of production time in the end game while i appreciate your arguments, 1base collossus would get pwned because i would easily have stim and MM off 2 bases by then and its over. if the toss expands im still way ahead and i guess we are both agree'ing with eachother. i said "i think instead of reverting queen buffs why not just buff lategame buildtimes for terran?" and your pretty much saying you agree i guess however i then said something that might make terrans whine and that is "if you buff lategame terran buildtimes you gotta do it for toss too and in equal strength amounts"
There's some serious bronze league theorycrafting going on here...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 25 2012 06:53 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:52 D_bo wrote:On June 25 2012 06:29 Bagi wrote:On June 25 2012 06:14 D_bo wrote:
Food for thought, perhaps the reason why T's late game appear to be lacking is the fact in the past they didn't have to get that stage in the game vs Z that often and don't have the skills yet to deal with it.
Too much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players
You can't actually believe in this, can you? Tell me this: if ALL terran players were just doing early game shenanigans, then when did zergs learn to play lategame ZvT? You have to understand that whenever a zerg plays a lategame ZvT, a terran does the same. You cannot claim that one side has more experience dealing with certain situations. Oh, and terrans have tried to go pure macro "playing for the lategame"-style of play forever now. It doesnt work. I didn't say all, and not all T's are complaining.. For the ones who are complaining, perhaps what I said is true You don't know much about the game do you?
So, attack me... Tell me what the average TvZ (tournament) game time is, and who wins the late game more often
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On June 25 2012 06:50 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:44 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 06:41 FakeDeath wrote:
Personally,i think Blizzard should buff the ravens(maybe HSM cost less,research faster or less raven cost or something) or make BCs viable or buff Ghosts snipe by a bit.
This is coming from a zerg player.
The problem isn't the Queen. It is that Queen buffs allows zerg to reach the lategame much easier and faster and more safer which zerg excels at the lategame that terran has trouble dealing with.
To compete with zerg lategame, i think Terran could used a bit of buff at their late game units(Ghost,BCs especially,Ravens).
Though i dunno how this will affect TvP.
The queen IS a problem! It makes it waaay too easy to get to the late game. It's a problem but not the problem. If Terran had a late game there wouldn't be an issue. Terran needs buffs all around, BCs need buffs, ravens need a buff in terms of cost, ghosts need to not be useless as fuck. Something needs to happen because that is the problem in all our match-ups, we have no late game. TvP is not imba nor is it balanced either. It's just you have to avoid the lategame cause we have none. Give Terran a lategame army. Buff the T2.5 and T3 units. Make them worth using. That's what the solution should be.
Such truth is rarely spoken in a balance whine thread.
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:58 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:50 Femari wrote:On June 25 2012 06:44 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 06:41 FakeDeath wrote:
Personally,i think Blizzard should buff the ravens(maybe HSM cost less,research faster or less raven cost or something) or make BCs viable or buff Ghosts snipe by a bit.
This is coming from a zerg player.
The problem isn't the Queen. It is that Queen buffs allows zerg to reach the lategame much easier and faster and more safer which zerg excels at the lategame that terran has trouble dealing with.
To compete with zerg lategame, i think Terran could used a bit of buff at their late game units(Ghost,BCs especially,Ravens).
Though i dunno how this will affect TvP.
The queen IS a problem! It makes it waaay too easy to get to the late game. It's a problem but not the problem. If Terran had a late game there wouldn't be an issue. Terran needs buffs all around, BCs need buffs, ravens need a buff in terms of cost, ghosts need to not be useless as fuck. Something needs to happen because that is the problem in all our match-ups, we have no late game. TvP is not imba nor is it balanced either. It's just you have to avoid the lategame cause we have none. Give Terran a lategame army. Buff the T2.5 and T3 units. Make them worth using. That's what the solution should be. Such truth is rarely spoken in a balance whine thread.
I prefer tanks being able to attack air 
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On June 25 2012 06:57 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:49 roymarthyup wrote:On June 25 2012 06:45 Rassy wrote:
"im willing to play a custom steppes of war map where voidrays are 25 second buildtime and thats the only change, with anyone here to show that 25 second buildtime voidrays would not break TvP at all and would still be easily countered because 150 gas is the limiting factor"
i will do a 1rax expand every game and once i scout the toss is not expanding drop a ton of raxes and murk the voidrays easily. even if warpgates could warp in voidrays they would still suck against terran
Only to see he went fast colossus on 1 base.
You should at least scan his base once before putting down the raxes to make it a bit realistic.
Annyway:Agree mostly with your points, building times of other then tier 1 units are definatly an isue for protoss and terran.
We cant make 6 starports or 6 robo bays, its way to expensive and so you left with the problem of production time in the end game while i appreciate your arguments, 1base collossus would get pwned because i would easily have stim and MM off 2 bases by then and its over. if the toss expands im still way ahead and i guess we are both agree'ing with eachother. i said "i think instead of reverting queen buffs why not just buff lategame buildtimes for terran?" and your pretty much saying you agree i guess however i then said something that might make terrans whine and that is "if you buff lategame terran buildtimes you gotta do it for toss too and in equal strength amounts" There's some serious bronze league theorycrafting going on here...
im masters and better than you thank you very much
User was temp banned for this post.
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i'd be ok if they just gave us our spider mines early and reactor them out to stop this queen madness =)
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On June 25 2012 06:50 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:44 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 06:41 FakeDeath wrote:
Personally,i think Blizzard should buff the ravens(maybe HSM cost less,research faster or less raven cost or something) or make BCs viable or buff Ghosts snipe by a bit.
This is coming from a zerg player.
The problem isn't the Queen. It is that Queen buffs allows zerg to reach the lategame much easier and faster and more safer which zerg excels at the lategame that terran has trouble dealing with.
To compete with zerg lategame, i think Terran could used a bit of buff at their late game units(Ghost,BCs especially,Ravens).
Though i dunno how this will affect TvP.
The queen IS a problem! It makes it waaay too easy to get to the late game. It's a problem but not the problem. If Terran had a late game there wouldn't be an issue. Terran needs buffs all around, BCs need buffs, ravens need a buff in terms of cost, ghosts need to not be useless as fuck. Something needs to happen because that is the problem in all our match-ups, we have no late game. TvP is not imba nor is it balanced either. It's just you have to avoid the lategame cause we have none. Give Terran a lategame army. Buff the T2.5 and T3 units. Make them worth using. That's what the solution should be.
Agreed. However:
Buffing terran lategame so that every other match-up remains balanced is very difficult.
Nerfing queens is easy.
They should just turn queens back the way they were and bring them back with HOTS. That's where everything else gets rebalanced anyway.
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I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird.
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On June 25 2012 07:19 Flippin1337 wrote:
I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird.
Read a good portion of the thread before you try to say some stupid shit that has been repeating for the past 60+ pages. Saying people are whining before trying new things is what terrans have been trying to do since the patch. I couldn't take your post seriously after I read you think terran is favored late game in any matchup besides TvT.
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On June 25 2012 07:19 Flippin1337 wrote:
I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird.
you don't see why terrans are whining?
1) you can't be as greedy as zerg, you simply can't. if i'm going 14 cc into 3 OC or something like that, I will still have less workers, and less income at 7-8 minutes than a zerg that is droning up, i can't put pressure on him
2) as soon as any zerg worth his salt sees that, he has two options, he can bust me, which since i have literally no units cause i'm being so greedy, it's gonna work, also I can't even scout it. OR he takes more bases, and kills me with broodlords 20 minutes later
3) terran aren't favored late game. they just aren't. people win GSL's cause terran rewards better mechanics, multi-tasking and micro. if you look at other races, zerg and protoss, doing that stuff doesn't give the same kind of benefits. it's not to say that other races don't, but it's like why bother? infestors are really stupidly good, and zerg T3 is amazing. you can switch between broodlords and ultras as long as you keep infestors alive and there's nothing terran can do. if you lose an army, terran has to respond properly. if i'm making vikings and you're pumping ultras, i lose. simple as that. and there's no micro in the world that can save terran units that get fungal'd and zergling surrounded.
if you're losing to terran late game, you're doing something very very wrong
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On June 25 2012 07:08 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:57 Torra wrote:On June 25 2012 06:49 roymarthyup wrote:On June 25 2012 06:45 Rassy wrote:
"im willing to play a custom steppes of war map where voidrays are 25 second buildtime and thats the only change, with anyone here to show that 25 second buildtime voidrays would not break TvP at all and would still be easily countered because 150 gas is the limiting factor"
i will do a 1rax expand every game and once i scout the toss is not expanding drop a ton of raxes and murk the voidrays easily. even if warpgates could warp in voidrays they would still suck against terran
Only to see he went fast colossus on 1 base.
You should at least scan his base once before putting down the raxes to make it a bit realistic.
Annyway:Agree mostly with your points, building times of other then tier 1 units are definatly an isue for protoss and terran.
We cant make 6 starports or 6 robo bays, its way to expensive and so you left with the problem of production time in the end game while i appreciate your arguments, 1base collossus would get pwned because i would easily have stim and MM off 2 bases by then and its over. if the toss expands im still way ahead and i guess we are both agree'ing with eachother. i said "i think instead of reverting queen buffs why not just buff lategame buildtimes for terran?" and your pretty much saying you agree i guess however i then said something that might make terrans whine and that is "if you buff lategame terran buildtimes you gotta do it for toss too and in equal strength amounts" There's some serious bronze league theorycrafting going on here... im masters and better than you thank you very much
I'm high master EU, so not really.
And your suggestions are ridiculous. It honestly looked like your're below gold.
I think terran should be buffed instead of queen change reverted
how about giving vikings a 20 second buildtime? imbalanced? really in the state of free 3base zerg? I dont think so
how about giving bc's a 40 second buildtime to contest ultras and make carriers 60 to compensate?
how about making banshee/raven/voidrays 25 second buildtime? would zerg really have a problem with it against toss/terran? doesnt seem like it in these days of free 3base zerg
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Anyone complaining about this patch who is in a lower league would do well to just get better at the game. At your level, balance is just one small random factor in any given game. Player mechanics are far more outcome determinative at your level. At the high masters level, player mechanics are near-optimal so decision-making and balance become critically important. If you're complaining that your early game pressure against a zerg isn't working, but you're missing your timings horribly and banking 2k mins while doing that pressure, then the reason you lost is your poor mechanics. Until you show me a replay where you properly macroed your timing, you're in no place to complain about balance. As a mid master I have a 50% if not higher winrate against low-mid master Protoss and Zerg players while going mass marine on Daybreak (these are custom games which is why I'm saying Daybreak only). How you ask? Mechanics and multi-tasking. And my macro is terrible lol. If that's possible for me to do, it's definitely possible for you to overcome balance twice over by improving your mechanics.
EDIT: Here's some replays to back up my statements. Watch and learn.
http://drop.sc/204706
http://drop.sc/204707
http://drop.sc/204709
http://drop.sc/204710
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On June 25 2012 07:19 Flippin1337 wrote:
I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird.
if zergs sees you get 2 greedy, he can time out a good timing and destroy you. If terran seens zerg is to greedy, he must "deal"" with it.
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Hey guys didn't read the thread have you thought about making ravens?!?! As a high silver player I feel it is my duty to enlighten you all to the fact that ravens can kill an entire cloud of BL if your opponent has a seizure during the battle and doesn't fungal your ravens.
Joking aside, the queen buff should be reverted, OL speed buff kept in place, and the game should just be left alone until HoTS.
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On June 25 2012 07:24 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 07:19 Flippin1337 wrote:
I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird. Read a good portion of the thread before you try to say some stupid shit that has been repeating for the past 60+ pages. Saying people are whining before trying new things is what terrans have been trying to do since the patch. I couldn't take your post seriously after I read you think terran is favored late game in any matchup besides TvT.
How do you not think terran is favored in the late game? I don't get it i would say anyday that terran has the highest skillcap between races, it's simply the race that can micro and change a game based on decisions the most, i mean if you differ that opinion you must retarded... Give a bot with 9000 apm and let it 2 rax a early expanding zerg... see how it goes... And no terrans have not tryed to change anything at all, are you even watching them play? They try 4 times then go back. Play 1000+ games with a new style and you can talk about them trying.
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On June 25 2012 07:27 bOneSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 07:19 Flippin1337 wrote:
I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird. if zergs sees you get 2 greedy, he can time out a good timing and destroy you. If terran seens zerg is to greedy, he must "deal"" with it.
Yea of course we all now zerg have great timings if the terran go tank. And zerg have dealing with early timing attacks for ages vs terrans now the side switched atleast that's what you are saying. Isen't that fair, haven't zerg devolped new styles to counter that? I also wonder why terrans doesn't do the marauder/helion timing alot more, you know the zerg will play greedy like 98% of the time, and he will make like 1 spine. Just wondering.
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On June 25 2012 07:25 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 07:19 Flippin1337 wrote:
I do not understand this thread at all. I think the queen change is fine, I am a zerg player tho.
Seems to me like there is alot of whine about the zerg having a easyer time reaching the late game, i understand the problem with that but it doesn't seem like terrans are adapting? I saw demuslim play idra yesterday randomly and he played like you did before the change... It's like people expect to play the same way and still win? If you know the zerg will play more greedy why don't you play more greedy? Like 14 cc or 2 rax in double expansion. Seems like people are whining before trying new things, kinda sad imo.
I'm not one to say if there is something wrong but i doubt it. I think terran are favored in the late game against zerg so i do not understand where this is coming from. Terran is the race which scales the best with micro, atleast in my opinion, and i do not understand why you don't want to get into the lategame. Looks to me as terran have the highest skill cap and i think that's why you see so many GSL terran winners. Of course you could discuss if the queen buffs would then be fair on a lower level but meh. I don't get it please explain me the problem, cause it seems a little weird. you don't see why terrans are whining? 1) you can't be as greedy as zerg, you simply can't. if i'm going 14 cc into 3 OC or something like that, I will still have less workers, and less income at 7-8 minutes than a zerg that is droning up, i can't put pressure on him 2) as soon as any zerg worth his salt sees that, he has two options, he can bust me, which since i have literally no units cause i'm being so greedy, it's gonna work, also I can't even scout it. OR he takes more bases, and kills me with broodlords 20 minutes later 3) terran aren't favored late game. they just aren't. people win GSL's cause terran rewards better mechanics, multi-tasking and micro. if you look at other races, zerg and protoss, doing that stuff doesn't give the same kind of benefits. it's not to say that other races don't, but it's like why bother? infestors are really stupidly good, and zerg T3 is amazing. you can switch between broodlords and ultras as long as you keep infestors alive and there's nothing terran can do. if you lose an army, terran has to respond properly. if i'm making vikings and you're pumping ultras, i lose. simple as that. and there's no micro in the world that can save terran units that get fungal'd and zergling surrounded. if you're losing to terran late game, you're doing something very very wrong
1) you are not as reliant on income else terran would loose 100%?
2) why i mentioned micro etc...
3) "people win GSL's cause terran rewards better mechanics, multi-tasking and micro. if you look at other races, zerg and protoss, doing that stuff doesn't give the same kind of benefits" - I really like this statement cause it's what im trying to say. Terran benifit more from being the better player so if you loose you obvly aren't? What im saying is that in theory you should not loose fights unless you make a mistake?
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EPT
