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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 25 2012 08:18 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it. Its like talking to a wall with you, the only thing you have posted in this thread is whines about how your race is weak and how you cant do this and cant do that. i could argue back and prove you wrong everytime, but like every other balance discussion you will always have something else to say just becauseyou race is not doing so well at the moment (after over one year of being on top) so its pointless, i regret already posting here, i will just leave you to get on with your tears.
So hypocritical. All these posts are POINTLESS!!! The queen change makes it too easy for zerg and nearly impossible for terran.
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On June 25 2012 08:27 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:18 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it. Its like talking to a wall with you, the only thing you have posted in this thread is whines about how your race is weak and how you cant do this and cant do that. i could argue back and prove you wrong everytime, but like every other balance discussion you will always have something else to say just becauseyou race is not doing so well at the moment (after over one year of being on top) so its pointless, i regret already posting here, i will just leave you to get on with your tears. So hypocritical
Says you, you're one of the guys i was talking about  Keep it up though.
User was warned for this post
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On June 25 2012 08:25 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:24 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:18 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it. Its like talking to a wall with you, the only thing you have posted in this thread is whines about how your race is weak and how you cant do this and cant do that. i could argue back and prove you wrong everytime, but like every other balance discussion you will always have something else to say just becauseyou race is not doing so well at the moment (after over one year of being on top) so its pointless, i regret already posting here, i will just leave you to get on with your tears. At least I back up what I say hot stuff. It's okay, just assume that every Zerg magically figured out the matchup and now are dominating cause they are so gosu. Yup Back up? where's that, would love to see it. All i have seen is wild assumptions.
Go try it. At least I'm not just saying micro. Nice blank statement. Expected nothing more from a Zerg with a sense of entitlement from blizzards latest abortion of a patch
Edit: and you never even clarified your micro statement. Cause you have no idea what you're talking about.
User was warned for this post
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And putting every change aside, all that adaptation crap and how stupid late game is
If a match up that was by all measurements the most dynamic, most balanced and most rewarding of skill in sc2 becomes a clusterfuck of 30%-35% win rates in GSTL, cause of 1 patch, blizzard messed up.
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On June 25 2012 08:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:25 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:24 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:18 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it. Its like talking to a wall with you, the only thing you have posted in this thread is whines about how your race is weak and how you cant do this and cant do that. i could argue back and prove you wrong everytime, but like every other balance discussion you will always have something else to say just becauseyou race is not doing so well at the moment (after over one year of being on top) so its pointless, i regret already posting here, i will just leave you to get on with your tears. At least I back up what I say hot stuff. It's okay, just assume that every Zerg magically figured out the matchup and now are dominating cause they are so gosu. Yup Back up? where's that, would love to see it. All i have seen is wild assumptions. Go try it. At least I'm not just saying micro. Nice blank statement. Expected nothing more from a Zerg with a sense of entitlement from blizzards latest abortion of a patch Edit: and you never even clarified your micro statement. Cause you have no idea what you're talking about.
Who says im zerg? unlike you i dont blindly type pointless crap just because i want to defend my race like yourself
Why would i need to clarify my statement? queens wont kill your units in time as long as u pull back the injured ones, i didnt say that because i thought it goes without saying, although talking to you i geuss i must dumb down as much as possible.
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Funny coming in here and seeing everyone talk about the 6 queen build and Zerg rushing to late game. I'm sure it's prob op and the best way to play, but for me going quick lair off 2 bases into 3 base ling bling muta is just toooooo fun to give up for the sake of a patch or meta game change
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On June 25 2012 08:39 sewergoat wrote:
Funny coming in here and seeing everyone talk about the 6 queen build and Zerg rushing to late game. I'm sure it's prob op and the best way to play, but for me going quick lair off 2 bases into 3 base ling bling muta is just toooooo fun to give up for the sale of a patch or meta game change
Because lingblingmuta sets the game up for entertaining TvZ that the 6 queen 3 base play destroys.
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People dont seem to understand that hellions are required to defend banebusts. Its extremely hard to defend those with just pure bio plus they give you mapcontrol against speedlings.
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I think the range buff is overpowered and should be revoked as beforehand Zergs didn't have trouble surviving the earlygame if they played intelligently. Furthermore, I think as a buff to Terran, Snipe should be buffed, not in damage but in range and what targets it can hit.
What I would do in Patch 1.5.0 if I had a choice is:
1. Revert Queen ground attack range to 3 from 5.
2. Modify Snipe as follows
Old Snipe:
- 10 Range
- 25 Energy
- Deals 25 Damage (50 to Psionic units)
- Can only hit Biological
New Snipe:
- 12 Range (Outranges the Siege Tank vision range and Colossus thermal lance attack range but still within range of the Siege Tank's siege mode blast radius. Also outranges Feedback)
- 25 Energy
- Deals 35 damage (50 to Light) - This would be a good compromise, not only would this not fuck up the use of Snipe on Light units but it would also nerf their damage on Brood Lords and Ultralisks but not too severely, Plus the 3 Range buff would be offset a bit by the fact that spellcasters would take 3 hits instead of 2 to get killed. Of course if that's too OP, you could just buff the health of spellcasters a bit to make them die in 4 hits instead, or increase the range of Infestor/Templar spells by 1.
- Can hit all targets, not just Biological (This is to buff them in other respective matchups i.e. TvP and TvT, not just TvZ but let's not go into that.)
Why's that?
At the moment, Terrans face a literal tonne of problems in TvZ:
1. They have to deal damage early else have no chance at a comeback.
2. They cannot really harm a late game Zerg army especially when it's backed by 6 - 8 Ultralisks or a high number of Brood Lords.
3. Ghosts are virtually useless in TvZ except for strategically dismantling infestors. The damage nerf of Snipe was far too severe and should have been more like a 25% rather than a 50% nerf.
4. Snipe doesn't feel long ranged enough.
5. It's too difficult to get near spellcasters.
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On June 25 2012 08:50 Clbull wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think the range buff is overpowered and should be revoked as beforehand Zergs didn't have trouble surviving the earlygame if they played intelligently. Furthermore, I think as a buff to Terran, Snipe should be buffed, not in damage but in range and what targets it can hit.
What I would do in Patch 1.5.0 if I had a choice is:
1. Revert Queen ground attack range to 3 from 5.
2. Modify Snipe as follows
Old Snipe:
- 10 Range
- 25 Energy
- Deals 25 damage (50 to Psionic units)
- Can only hit Biological
New Snipe:
- 13 Range (Outranges the Siege Tank vision range and Colossus thermal lance attack range but still within range of the Siege Tank's siege mode blast radius. Also outranges Feedback)
- 40 Energy
- 60 damage (75 to Psionic units)
- Can hit all targets, not just Biological (This is to buff them in other respective matchups i.e. TvP and TvT, not just TvZ but let's not go into that.)
Why's that?
At the moment, Terrans face a literal tonne of problems in TvZ:
1. They have to deal damage early else have no chance at a comeback.
2. They cannot really harm a late game Zerg army especially when it's backed by 6 - 8 Ultralisks or a high number of Brood Lords.
3. Ghosts are virtually useless in TvZ. The damage nerf of Snipe was too severe.
4. Snipe doesn't feel long ranged enough.
5. It's too difficult to get near spellcasters.
There should be rule that no balance suggestions allowed in team liquid. Not sure if troll or not.
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13 range is cool, but imbalanced. Templars will never land A storm.
And what's the point in 75 to psionic? This is still 2 shots.
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hmm i might have to log in and play some games tonight. i checked my account and i hadnt played since april 12. it felt like i had to play perfectly against terran to have any chance. from the first moments on, one mistake would cost you the game, whereas for terran one of a handful of different builds could instantly end the game. it just got old after a while. i did okay against terrans it just wasnt that fun. maybe this change and the mule nerf has made the matchup a bit more fair (i sent blizz balance thoughts on the mule in the beta and they fnally did something about it LOL, shit like that made me not even want to play sc2).
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On June 25 2012 05:33 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 05:24 zmansman17 wrote:
Again, I'm intrigued by how much hate Terrans are getting from Zerg players. Instead of addressing the issue in a reasonable way, it's mostly ad hominem coming from these players. Even the OP here stated "you whiny Terrans". Others have stated "learn to play", "why don't you just adapt, we did", from earlier in this thread.
Its especially funny when you look at all the changes in the game since the times zerg was doing badly. Pretty much everything terran-related has been nerfed, while zergs have had buffs after buffs. The maps have been made to favor zergs. The metagame has moved towards longer macro games where zergs excel. Yet we have zergs trashtalking terran players now that the balancing process went too far off the other edge. Its like they learned nothing from when the time they were underpowered themselves.
Absolutely. I can't agree more. I mean it's not like Zergs exactly adapted either as some of my friends and I were talking about today. They were buffed; they didn't just "adapt", exactly as they said.
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On June 25 2012 08:50 Clbull wrote:
I think the range buff is overpowered and should be revoked as beforehand Zergs didn't have trouble surviving the earlygame if they played intelligently. Furthermore, I think as a buff to Terran, Snipe should be buffed, not in damage but in range and what targets it can hit.
2. Modify Snipe as follows
- 13 Range (Outranges the Siege Tank vision range and Colossus thermal lance attack range but still within range of the Siege Tank's siege mode blast radius. Also outranges Feedback)
- 40 Energy
- 60 damage (75 to Psionic units)
- Can hit all targets, not just Biological (This is to buff them in other respective matchups i.e. TvP and TvT, not just TvZ but let's not go into that.)
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These highlighted suggestions of yours are all terrible.
For starters, snipe already outranged feedback. If you made the range that much moreso than a templars range for feedback/storm you've essentially nerfed the HT (specifically storm) out of the PvT matchup.
60 damage? So snipe does more damage than a siege tank shot, and fires faster? What?
I don't think the ghost should ever be allowed to hit all targets. That would actually make the ghost better than nearly every unit. Mass ghost would end up being nearly unbeatable.
The goal shouldn't be to make other units drastically better (even better than they were pre being patched) to fix problems. Basically every suggestion made here would break the ghost- which isn't remotely required.
With the new queen patch, I'd quite frankly just like to see the ghost's snipe returned to its former state. I never felt that it was too powerful, and reverting snipe back would not really effect TvP at all.
This thread shouldn't be about theory-crating, but since so many people are doing it, at least consider your suggestions and their ramifications.
I wouldn't terribly mind the EMP radius returned to 2, as it would make EMP useful and possibly effective vs infestors, though it might effect TvP more than it's worth.
Personally, I think the key lies with the Raven. Terrans are having a hard time in late game TvP/Z, and I think the Raven could seriously fit a role in both matchups if it wasn't so clumsy, expensive, and fragile. Given how much energy it needs to be useful in TvP, it's so easily feedbacked before being relevant. Perhaps a decrease in cost or build time for the Raven, or even the energy upgrade, so that PDD/seeker missile might actually be casted before your ravens just die. TvZ the Raven needs seeker missiles to be relevant and you need to wait to bank energy, which isn't often going to happen since they die really fast and ostensibly would be used for trying to deny creep spread. If any unit needs tweaking, I'd say it's definitely the Raven- even moreso than a reverted back to 3-range Queen
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On June 25 2012 09:02 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:50 Clbull wrote:
I think the range buff is overpowered and should be revoked as beforehand Zergs didn't have trouble surviving the earlygame if they played intelligently. Furthermore, I think as a buff to Terran, Snipe should be buffed, not in damage but in range and what targets it can hit.
2. Modify Snipe as follows
- 13 Range (Outranges the Siege Tank vision range and Colossus thermal lance attack range but still within range of the Siege Tank's siege mode blast radius. Also outranges Feedback)
- 40 Energy
- 60 damage (75 to Psionic units)
- Can hit all targets, not just Biological (This is to buff them in other respective matchups i.e. TvP and TvT, not just TvZ but let's not go into that.)
. These highlighted suggestions of yours are all terrible. For starters, snipe already outranged feedback. If you made the range that much moreso than a templars range for feedback/storm you've essentially nerfed the HT (specifically storm) out of the PvT matchup. 60 damage? So snipe does more damage than a siege tank shot, and fires faster? What? I don't think the ghost should ever be allowed to hit all targets. That would actually make the ghost better than nearly every unit. Mass ghost would end up being nearly unbeatable. The goal shouldn't be to make other units drastically better (even better than they were pre being patched) to fix problems. Basically every suggestion made here would break the ghost- which isn't remotely required. With the new queen patch, I'd quite frankly just like to see the ghost's snipe returned to its former state. I never felt that it was too powerful, and reverting snipe back would not really effect TvP at all. This thread shouldn't be about theory-crating, but since so many people are doing it, at least consider your suggestions and their ramifications. I wouldn't terribly mind the EMP radius returned to 2, as it would make EMP useful and possibly effective vs infestors, though it might effect TvP more than it's worth. Personally, I think the key lies with the Raven. Terrans are having a hard time in late game TvP/Z, and I think the Raven could seriously fit a role in both matchups if it wasn't so clumsy, expensive, and fragile. Given how much energy it needs to be useful in TvP, it's so easily feedbacked before being relevant. Perhaps a decrease in cost or build time for the Raven, or even the energy upgrade, so that PDD/seeker missile might actually be casted before your ravens just die.
I think the Raven is a terrible unit. HSM has a minuscule range, costs 125 Energy (or 62.5% of the Raven's Energy pool) to cast and hardly does as much damage as Psionic Storm or Fungal Growth. Oh and the movement of the missile is far too slow still.
I would love to see it buffed but I imagine Blizzard probably think TvZ is fine.
As for my 13 range idea, I think it may be OP so it probably should be reduced to 12 and be an upgrade from the Ghost Academy, not 12 baseline
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blizzard said that they actually care for all divisions or levels of play. If you look around like foreign scenes and even possibly korean scene now days, you see probably like 2 or 3 terrans out of 16 men now days. It was close to like this even before the patch not as bad as this though. I am just really curious if they cared so much why not try doing something about either revert patch or try to come up with a solution?
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On June 25 2012 06:29 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:14 D_bo wrote:
Food for thought, perhaps the reason why T's late game appear to be lacking is the fact in the past they didn't have to get that stage in the game vs Z that often and don't have the skills yet to deal with it.
Too much time 2 raxing, early bunkering, and other early game strats have hurt T players development as players
You can't actually believe in this, can you? Tell me this: if ALL terran players were just doing early game shenanigans, then when did zergs learn to play lategame ZvT? You have to understand that whenever a zerg plays a lategame ZvT, a terran does the same. You cannot claim that one side has more experience dealing with certain situations. Oh, and terrans have tried to go pure macro "playing for the lategame"-style of play forever now. It doesnt work.
This comment to which you responded is exactly why TL should have leagues pinned to posters, so there is a general idea of their skill. But even if this person is of very low skill, it is indeed hard to believe they could honestly think that all the Korean, European and North American Terrans never had to play in the late game and can't win as a result. This thread is just full of rationalizing Terran's 30 some % win rate in TvZ.
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On June 25 2012 09:05 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 09:02 Durp wrote:On June 25 2012 08:50 Clbull wrote:
I think the range buff is overpowered and should be revoked as beforehand Zergs didn't have trouble surviving the earlygame if they played intelligently. Furthermore, I think as a buff to Terran, Snipe should be buffed, not in damage but in range and what targets it can hit.
2. Modify Snipe as follows
- 13 Range (Outranges the Siege Tank vision range and Colossus thermal lance attack range but still within range of the Siege Tank's siege mode blast radius. Also outranges Feedback)
- 40 Energy
- 60 damage (75 to Psionic units)
- Can hit all targets, not just Biological (This is to buff them in other respective matchups i.e. TvP and TvT, not just TvZ but let's not go into that.)
. These highlighted suggestions of yours are all terrible. For starters, snipe already outranged feedback. If you made the range that much moreso than a templars range for feedback/storm you've essentially nerfed the HT (specifically storm) out of the PvT matchup. 60 damage? So snipe does more damage than a siege tank shot, and fires faster? What? I don't think the ghost should ever be allowed to hit all targets. That would actually make the ghost better than nearly every unit. Mass ghost would end up being nearly unbeatable. The goal shouldn't be to make other units drastically better (even better than they were pre being patched) to fix problems. Basically every suggestion made here would break the ghost- which isn't remotely required. With the new queen patch, I'd quite frankly just like to see the ghost's snipe returned to its former state. I never felt that it was too powerful, and reverting snipe back would not really effect TvP at all. This thread shouldn't be about theory-crating, but since so many people are doing it, at least consider your suggestions and their ramifications. I wouldn't terribly mind the EMP radius returned to 2, as it would make EMP useful and possibly effective vs infestors, though it might effect TvP more than it's worth. Personally, I think the key lies with the Raven. Terrans are having a hard time in late game TvP/Z, and I think the Raven could seriously fit a role in both matchups if it wasn't so clumsy, expensive, and fragile. Given how much energy it needs to be useful in TvP, it's so easily feedbacked before being relevant. Perhaps a decrease in cost or build time for the Raven, or even the energy upgrade, so that PDD/seeker missile might actually be casted before your ravens just die. I think the Raven is a terrible unit. HSM has a minuscule range, costs 125 Energy (or 62.5% of the Raven's Energy pool) to cast and hardly does as much damage as Psionic Storm or Fungal Growth. Oh and the movement of the missile is far too slow still. I would love to see it buffed but I imagine Blizzard probably think TvZ is fine. As for my 13 range idea, I think it may be OP so it probably should be reduced to 12 and be an upgrade from the Ghost Academy, not 12 baseline
12 is still too much. 10 is a perfectly acceptable range, being as it outranges just about every unit in the game short of the siege tank. I like that the ghost has just more range than an HT. 12 range is massive- it would be able to cast snipe with a further range than the viking has? Wayyyy too much.
Also, for your reference, the HSM does more damage to it's actual target than storm or fungal does (100 vs 80 and 30(40) respectively)
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On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it.
Sigh.This statement itself makes you a whiner.
Really hard to take you seriously if you spout all nonsense like this.
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On June 25 2012 09:14 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:12 Chaggi wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 Reaps wrote:On June 25 2012 08:09 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 25 2012 07:55 Reaps wrote:6 Queens with 3 transfuses between them will beat 6 hellions and 6 marauders with only 2 queens dying. If you have 6 or more transfuses then the queens will beat the hellions and marauders without any of the queens dying. Lol, no just no. Are you sure you are playing sc2? I just went into unit tester and tried it, go and do it yourself. You need to micro. Micro what? Focus firing a queen? Hoping that the queens line up? It literally doesn't matter, zerg will always scout it. Sigh.This statement itself makes you a whiner. Really hard to take you seriously if you spout all nonsense like this.
If you're going for pure marauder hellion you'll probably have 3 marines max. How do you deny overlord scouting with just 3 marines?
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EPT
