EPTSuch fruitful discussion going on. [/sarcasm]
Don't worry folks.. If your race cannot make it, just wait for the buff. Blizz means well albeit their methods can be heavy handed at times.
1 Month later... Is Queen Range still too strong [TvZ]? -…
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed. 12:09 KST Page 98 | ||
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lazyitachi
1043 Posts
Such fruitful discussion going on. [/sarcasm] Don't worry folks.. If your race cannot make it, just wait for the buff. Blizz means well albeit their methods can be heavy handed at times. | ||
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kosai
20 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:27 lazyitachi wrote: Don't worry folks.. If your race cannot make it, just wait for the buff. Blizz means well albeit their methods can be heavy handed at times. Yeah, but what bothers me is that right now there's this huge uproar of Terrans complaining about TvZ and Blizzard does nothing, but let's look back. How many Zergs complained about TvZ before the patch? Because IIRC everyone was like "why are they changing queen energy/range" when the patch went on PTR. Which means - not a lot of people complained. And still, they got their patch. Which makes me very sceptical on Blizzard ever considering Terran point of view. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Spore colonies now have a small splash radius against biological units. Bam, late game problem of TvZ fixed. No need to change queen and terrans can move forward with a more economic style strategy. | ||
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kUNImiTsu
United States14 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:46 Talack wrote: Spore colonies now have a small splash radius against biological units. What would this do vs. Terran? Did you mean mechanical? | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:48 kUNImiTsu wrote: What would this do vs. Terran? Did you mean mechanical? If you take fungal out of ZvZ it'd turn it into muta vs muta. The quoted poster's suggestion contradicts DB's design philosophy though, as he's stated multiple times he doesn't like units having "hidden/multiple" abilities to make the game overly complex. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:48 kUNImiTsu wrote: What would this do vs. Terran? Did you mean mechanical? They removed fungal from air before and it was said that mutas would be too powerful in ZvZ so that would help alleviate it. The problem is that zerg is too damn strong late-game so blizzard really needs to just nerf that shit somehow because that's where all the problems come from, is that terran cannot compete efficiently vs zerg late-game without an advantage from harassment early on. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:22 SnipedSoul wrote: If you're going for pure marauder hellion you'll probably have 3 marines max. How do you deny overlord scouting with just 3 marines? 2 marines should be more than enough. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
no sorry, any cc first tech build will require every marine to be in a bunker to defend roach ling attacks (hard as hell to hold) the standard is 3 marines, and with the new nitropack overlords, by the time you see the overlord in your base it will get full vision of everything by the time it is dead. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:46 Talack wrote: Fungal Growth no longer affects air units. Spore colonies now have a small splash radius against biological units. Bam, late game problem of TvZ fixed. No need to change queen and terrans can move forward with a more economic style strategy. They attempted fungal no longer affects air and VR and phoenix play is too strong. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
1) 6queens can kill 6marauder and 6 hellions or even if you dont believe it, zergling buildtime is 20 some seconds zerg can take 3 free bases so even if the zerg doesnt scout it, you will be fighting 50speedlings off 3bases before the queens even die. also when the battle starts the zerg can even start making more queens while the 6 are dying plus lings. the terran is always behind after 2) if you try to hit at any time later than 6marauder 6hellion creeps already halfway across the map zerg scouts it coming even faster due to creep and theres 70lings swarming you by the time you reach his natural ramp | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On June 25 2012 10:08 Kharnage wrote: They attempted fungal no longer affects air and VR and phoenix play is too strong. Mixing in more hydras/corrupters seems to be the solution to that. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
keep the radius large to slow mm for banelings, lower damage | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On June 25 2012 10:23 Talack wrote: Mixing in more hydras/corrupters seems to be the solution to that. Zerg anti-air is rediculously bad at dealing with mass air with fungal removed from the equation. Once phoenix get their ran ge upgrade they can even take on corruptors. Hydras cannot do anything to a wall in that has colossus supporting it, which means protoss can turtle on 3 base and mass an air composition for which zerg has no answer. Phoenix are simply too fast for zerg to deal with, and the vulnerability of OL means that there is ALWAYS something for protoss to hasass. Obs + VR can keep the creep under control, and hydras off creep are terrible. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On June 25 2012 10:41 Kharnage wrote: Zerg anti-air is rediculously bad at dealing with mass air with fungal removed from the equation. Once phoenix get their ran ge upgrade they can even take on corruptors. Hydras cannot do anything to a wall in that has colossus supporting it, which means protoss can turtle on 3 base and mass an air composition for which zerg has no answer. Phoenix are simply too fast for zerg to deal with, and the vulnerability of OL means that there is ALWAYS something for protoss to hasass. Obs + VR can keep the creep under control, and hydras off creep are terrible. So this is an issue with harassment or with a full on battle? The harassment can be dealt with by queens/spores it sounds like and in a full on battle i'm wondering what the problem is still with having additional units devoted to the anti-air phase. It seems like zerg wants to just have a "counter-all" ability instead of mixing in units to assist. Throw in more corrupters for the VR/phoenix and your broods/infestors should be safe enough to handle the ground aspect (unless you're saying some scenario where they have like 15+ VRs or something) in addition to hydralisk support with your army. If it's an issue of hydras being slower, then you're just going to have to move out at a slower pace is all. The other armies do this all the time. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:43 kosai wrote: Yeah, but what bothers me is that right now there's this huge uproar of Terrans complaining about TvZ and Blizzard does nothing, but let's look back. How many Zergs complained about TvZ before the patch? Because IIRC everyone was like "why are they changing queen energy/range" when the patch went on PTR. Which means - not a lot of people complained. And still, they got their patch. Which makes me very sceptical on Blizzard ever considering Terran point of view. Even in Zerg dark age, we still have people like Nestea or FD who were confident in ZvT, who were specialized in ZvT. Right now, there're no pro Terran dare to say that his best MU is TvZ. This just feels surreal. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On June 25 2012 10:55 Talack wrote: So this is an issue with harassment or with a full on battle? The harassment can be dealt with by queens/spores it sounds like and in a full on battle i'm wondering what the problem is still with having additional units devoted to the anti-air phase. It seems like zerg wants to just have a "counter-all" ability instead of mixing in units to assist. Throw in more corrupters for the VR/phoenix and your broods/infestors should be safe enough to handle the ground aspect (unless you're saying some scenario where they have like 15+ VRs or something) in addition to hydralisk support with your army. If it's an issue of hydras being slower, then you're just going to have to move out at a slower pace is all. The other armies do this all the time. No, without Fungal Zerg really does suck at fighting against air. If you just make extra Corruptors great, but killing air is the ONLY think they can do, after that it's just dead supply so you need to walk a tightrope on getting not too few or too many corruptors, it's ridiculously hard to do that. Secondly, Hydras are a joke right now, they do not kill Air very well and they suck against most land and they cost a lot, nobody is going to build them for air support like you propose. Infestors quite simply are the only good option for AA most of the time. Wait a second...are you people still seriously crying about Infestors? hahahah holy shit learn to adapt already, christ. Any player who is even half-way decent can deal reasonably well with Infestors, it's really as simple as that. | ||
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DarkerThanKuro
United States61 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On June 25 2012 10:55 Talack wrote: So this is an issue with harassment or with a full on battle? The harassment can be dealt with by queens/spores it sounds like and in a full on battle i'm wondering what the problem is still with having additional units devoted to the anti-air phase. It seems like zerg wants to just have a "counter-all" ability instead of mixing in units to assist. Throw in more corrupters for the VR/phoenix and your broods/infestors should be safe enough to handle the ground aspect (unless you're saying some scenario where they have like 15+ VRs or something) in addition to hydralisk support with your army. If it's an issue of hydras being slower, then you're just going to have to move out at a slower pace is all. The other armies do this all the time. You're missing the 'why' of the meta game of why protoss don't mass air units beyond a few phoenix and a few VR, even with a 2 stargate opening. Once infestors are on the fields it's a dead composition. If you keep building air units like that one lucky fungal will turn into 8 chain fungals and your entire army is given away so you simpley can't be active with protoss air units once infestors appear. Hydras can defend a zerg base, and even anywhere with creep, but as soon as they are off creep they can't do anything to VR or phoenix. Corruptors outright die to VR and they are too slow to deal with phoenix. With the range upgrade the phoenix can actually poke in, do damage and move back while their shields regen. With air upgrades this gets even more troublesome. This is very different from what protoss do currently with air units, either a 2 stargate opening into colossus or turtle on 3 base carrier. Hydea / spore / queen vs phoenix / VR is like dealing with mutas with just marines and turrets. If you screw up you'll lose some mutas, but for the most part it should be only 1 or 2 mutas and you retain map control. Maybe if you catch some VR out of position with your hydras you'll get some, or if the phoenix fly over your hydras you'll kill a couple, but for the most part you're unable to do any serious damage. If you get corruptors VR can actually take them on head to head with phoenix acting as either extra dps or a shield for the VR. Especially if protoss are investing in upgrades (which they don't normally do since air is useless once infestors pop) | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 25 2012 09:27 lazyitachi wrote: [sarcasm] The amount of armchair theoretician/ commander of GSL caliber in this thread is overwhelming. Such fruitful discussion going on. [/sarcasm] Don't worry folks.. If your race cannot make it, just wait for the buff. Blizz means well albeit their methods can be heavy handed at times. Yeah but they started down the nerf path so they can't go back. Every time they nerf or buff something they open up something else that needs to be nerfed or buffed (once it gets figured out of course). I'm hoping with HoTS they only step in and make changes to stuff that they see is literally broken or being used in a completely unintentional way. If they start nerfing stuff that they know is only a problem because the players haven't figured it out yet....then we will end up with another broken esport. Hopefully they also have a better idea of what kind of strategies cause players to just give up and call it imba rather than thinking of ways to deal with it. | ||
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Sroobz
United States1377 Posts
On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote: How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well. Duh! What was I thinking? MKP should keep going MKP style too and continue losing. /watch his stream | ||
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