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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well.
The same MKP style that he says he only wins 10% And if you are going MMM vs banneling/fungals and whatever, you have to be amazing with splits to trade efficiently with. You can't expect Terran players to have high korean terran level splitting to deal with current zerg.
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On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well.
It's pretty easy to say go "MKP" style. The guy is literally one of the best Terran players in the world and he still struggles in TvZ. The average player is nowhere near MKP's MMM micro level.
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it's only because the maps are so big that hellions are necessary. i don't agree with this. however, maybe if they decreased map size games could go on longer
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On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well.
You clearly haven't read the latest MKP interview where he says his TvZ winrate has dropped to 10%. ._.
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My mind is still blown that they gave Queens such a ridiculous buff. I thought it was a joke at first until it actually went LIVE. I know IdrA was complaining in the past about Zerg's having a problem scouting and etc, but got damn why they have to buff the queens with such a ridiculous range. Just give the Zerg the overlord speed increase and be done with it. Now you got super queens that can spread creep, inject larva, and kill tier 1 army units in the early game.
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On June 25 2012 11:13 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well. Duh! What was I thinking? MKP should keep going MKP style too and continue losing. /watch his stream
Yeah I've only seen him go to dinner for about three hours, and my bio play has been doing fine on ladder. So while you keep crying the rest of us Terrans will start working on solutions to the Zerg problem.
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Bravo Blizzard! You took a match up that was virtually 50/50 and exciting to watch and made it 70/30 zerg favored and horrible to watch with your 'minor' patch. But I have to give them credit, they masked late game TvP problems by completely messing up TvZ. Good job.
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On June 25 2012 11:22 DarkerThanKuro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 11:13 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well. Duh! What was I thinking? MKP should keep going MKP style too and continue losing. /watch his stream Yeah I've only seen him go to dinner for about three hours, and my bio play has been doing fine on ladder. So while you keep crying the rest of us Terrans will start working on solutions to the Zerg problem.
bronze-gold leaguers don't care about balance
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No, without Fungal Zerg really does suck at fighting against air. If you just make extra Corruptors great, but killing air is the ONLY think they can do, after that it's just dead supply so you need to walk a tightrope on getting not too few or too many corruptors, it's ridiculously hard to do that. Secondly, Hydras are a joke right now, they do not kill Air very well and they suck against most land and they cost a lot, nobody is going to build them for air support like you propose. Infestors quite simply are the only good option for AA most of the time.
So having a well made unit composition is not something a zerg should do? :S
Right now it seems that massing up 8-12 infestors and then getting an assortment of ground with a few broods will beat everything regardless of what the other player is making. You keep refering to "nobody will make them" but that has been said about so many terran units that eventually got used and then nerfed but honestly if the problem is having lots of VRs (im going to assume lots is 5-6) and killing them off and then replenishing with something to beat what is left to defend/go on the offensive seems like better game design than having a unit that is made to beat everything.
If anything both sides should hope for a change in the late-game outside of "vortex landed or not" because that's incredibly stagnant for late-game. Changing the way infestor/brood works together would do wonders for this games watch-ability.
Wait a second...are you people still seriously crying about Infestors? hahahah holy shit learn to adapt already, christ. Any player who is even half-way decent can deal reasonably well with Infestors, it's really as simple as that.
Why even add this in? What exactly are you trying to say with this part? You were fine and contributing to the discussion and then you had to add in something else? The problem is that infestor/broodlord has no direct counter later on. At all. It's a beat-everything composition that protoss/terran have huge problems against because of the combination of the anti-micro components of brood/infestor. Those two units alone are very dealable with, especially infestors. But you put them together and it's a nightmare.
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Late game will probably turn out to be fine. I've seen many TvZ games where if the Terran goes heavy on the medivac+ infantry in the late game they have a ton of gas left over. You already have the starports and rax's. Get a handful of ghosts and ravens with cloak and seeker upgrades.
EMP outranges fungal. Infestors are huge compared to Templars so the amount of EMP you need will have to be carefully balanced with the number of ravens you are going to need to wipe out the broodlords. THe lategame is fine if you just spent your gas when you had it to spare. For Terrans who opt to go infantry and tanks I have nothing to suggest because you are already using a gas intensive setup.
Infact it's getting really silly seeing certain people spending scans in the early game inspite of having a starport with a tech lab nearby. Spend the gas so you can use the minerals for more marines in the early game or vikings when you see the greater spire going up. You also would be saving a small amount of APM by not constantly scanning when a Raven just sees all the tumors.
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On June 25 2012 11:31 Dumbtruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 11:22 DarkerThanKuro wrote:On June 25 2012 11:13 Sroobz wrote:On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well. Duh! What was I thinking? MKP should keep going MKP style too and continue losing. /watch his stream Yeah I've only seen him go to dinner for about three hours, and my bio play has been doing fine on ladder. So while you keep crying the rest of us Terrans will start working on solutions to the Zerg problem. bronze-gold leaguers don't care about balance
Thats right because theyre doing fine at 50/50 winrates because of how the ladder works, just like everyone else.
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Im just, so lost. Please! PLEASE! Someone figure it out for the sake of terran.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 24 2012 16:26 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 16:12 BandonBanshee wrote:
The change is fine, Hellion openers still work they are just harder (considering it was one of the easiest and safest openings this is a good thing). Queens still do shit damage...people act like their hellions get 1 shotted now. Why are you so entitled? Why should the fact that you made hellions give you an automatic advantage? Hellions still do all the shit they did before except now it takes a bit of thought/micro.
Marinekings 1 rax CC into cloaked banshee has been working wonders for me on ladder. There's still tons of options for terran.....can you imagine if zerg could make 4 roaches and contain a terran for 7-8 minutes. The whining from terrans would never end. Try to look at the game without your massive bias and maybe off race once and a while. You'll find that your not as good as you think you are and your opinions on balance are even worse.
( Notice none of the qqers provide replays ) yet another biased zerg viewpoint.. Awsome stuff kiddo, BUT Hellion openers dont work anymore, because the point behind the hellion opening ((contrary to low leveled zergs opinions)) is not ment to kill, or even do economical damage, it is to contain the zerg on two bases and force them to make units instead of droneing, while Terran tries taking a faster 3rd.. And if you look at the win %'s, Terrans were not dominating with this style of play, but instead the overall match up was 50%, with swings from month the month between Terran and Zerg over who had the higher % ((what you would call in lamens terms, Balanced)). Zergs were not losing out right to Hellion openings ((unless they were bad - yes even the pros that lost out right to hellion openings played BAD, and that is why they lost, not because of op hellions)) but they were having to play reactionary ((go figure, the quote unquote "ractionary race" having to play reactionary.. thats imba right there)).. Now zergs can get an extremly fast 3rd unmolested, and Terran cant do anything about it, because they have literally nothing that can harass zerg early on anymore ((everything has been nerfed either directly or indirectly)).. If Terran tires to take a fast 3rd, zerg can either switch into full unit production on 2 bases and roll over the armyless Terran, or zerg can out greed the greedy Terran and go up to 5+ bases, and win lategame regardless.. Saying that this patch has had nothing todo with why Terrans are suddenly losing en mass, is being willfully ignorant ((dumb on purpse)).. I dare Zerg players to actually bring up RECENT statistics that prove this patch had no effect in breaking TvZ. I DARE THEM.. Instead of bringing up 1/2 year old ((if not older)) statistics and claiming it proves that everything is fine.. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 16:22 SolidMoose wrote:On June 24 2012 13:34 roymarthyup wrote:
6queen openings probably would still be just as effective against hellion openings if the change was reverted because hellions damage queens too slowly to even outdamage transfuse. most zergs could easily justdrop half the tumors and transfuse and still beat the hellions
but 3range queens got slaughtered by bio timings so 6queen openings at least had a hardcounter and didnt defend everything at 3range That's the best summary of this. 6 queen would be a viable, but not infinitely safe opening, if the range was back to 3. It's just no zerg bothered to try it when the queens had 3 range. It will still spread creep like mad, but Terrans can actually answer it with something if scouted well. This is the truth.. As is, if things were reverted, 6queen opening would still be a legit strat, but Terrans could actually do something against it.. As it is right now, zerg is out of control.. But go figure that zerg players would not experiment with their race when things were balanced, and instead QQed about stupied stuff, and after they get an overwheling advatage in a MU they suddenly find new ways to play. And Yet again Terrans are forced to find new styles of play after reciving yet another nerf if they want to win,, and yet all zergsdo is still tell Terrans to "discover" new startegies ((when that is all Terran players have done since beta)) because Terrans are just bad, and Zergs are justified.
Wow you managed to come of as whiny and pretentious in your very first sentence. Ignoring the fact that I said I play terran all together. "Terrans have been discovering new strats since beta" You mean the reactored hellion marine tank build that terrans did for LITERALLY a year straight? Get over yourself, Terran has had 1 bad month and everyone is already jumping ship. Call me crazy but you just don't seem like the innovative type. Shooting down ideas left and right while whining like a child just doesn't seem like the qualities of an innovative person.
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On June 25 2012 11:35 Mindflow wrote:
Im just, so lost. Please! PLEASE! Someone figure it out for the sake of terran.
The strat that gumiho did is "ok" for TvZ.
do a double proxy rax economy style to pressure the zerg (this is so easy to defend though keep in mind) and expand behind it with 3 cc if you can. if the zerg doesn't decide to do some sort of hard-bust you'll be able to get an econ advantage into w/e you desire after that.
once again though with most strats these days, it relies heavily on the zerg player not doing any offense at all.
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16950 Posts
This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 25 2012 12:09 Empyrean wrote:
This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
somebody plays zerg
User was temp banned for this post.
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16950 Posts
I actually don't play this game at all.
EDIT: Anyone else care to try and shit on this thread?
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I think 2raxing might need to come back
as a protoss ive started 2gating zerg again with amazing results im almost never behind in supply against zerg anymore
heres a replay of my latest PvZ. the idea behind my 2gate is i stop at 20 probes (max 1base mineral saturation), get 3 pylons which goes to 34 food allowing 7 zealots, expand at around 30 food delaying the final 2 zealots while pressuring zerg and as the zerg kills my zealots i can just make more and more while expanding and getting probes
the combination of fast zealot pressure makes the zerg produce less drones, and my expansion is pretty fast during this pressure and i end up being ahead of supply of the zerg all game
maybe terran can technically apply the same kind of pressure i do as toss and perform the same strategy but heres a thought. because terrans max 1base mineral saturation is 20scv's + mule, maybe terran should 3rax instead of 2rax harass while expanding and get ahead. considering you need 3raxes to equal 2gateways worth of production and also because terrans have more 1base income you can afford some bunkers and that extra rax
another thought is bunkers. maybe during this 3rax harassment you can get up 2-3 bunkers by the enemy ramp which stops creep spread from going too far and semi contains the zerg (but maybe speedling runbys can get by).
then while massing marines camping outside the enemy natural you can be expanding and making a depot wall in front of your natural keeping some marines home incase of speedling runby
in my head it seems like it can work and maybe possibly make it a 2rax with 1rax proxied near your enemys natural so you can get a gas and put a techlab there to get marauders in your bunkers vs spine/queen
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=upload
anyway heres the replay. my idea is technically terran as a race should be able to put as much pressure onto the zerg as i did as protoss, while expanding, keeping his drone count low. it probably would require 3rax pressure before gas even 3rax before orbital possibly because you would wanna spend money on bunker/third rax before your orbital.
heres what i think a bo could be
optimal 2 raxes at your ramp
delayed orbital (to give money for bunkers and third rax)
if your on taldar arim, send out 3scouts (1 to each base) when you start your rax so you find your zerg enemy by the time your rax finishes (and you need 3 scv's to protect and set up bunkers)
when your 12rax finishes, you should have already found your enemy with 3 scv's heading there (and 1 there). the moment your rax finishes start a bunker far away from the zergs natural hatchery. because the bunker is so far away zerg pulling drones to stop it loses a ton of economy
also build a third proxy rax near your bunkers at the zergs natural ramp. im thinking bunker/rax should probably be very far away maybe a couple inches from the zergs ramp on taldar arim
stop producing scv's when you have 20 at main, 3 at the zergs base (23 total)
put new needed depots at your natural ramp
when third rax is starting, while constantly making marines and not getting supply blocked (new depots wall your natural) take a gas and make 3 more scv's for that gas. gas lets you turn proxy rax into techlab+marauders
after those 3 extra scv's then get orbital while still making nonstop marines
have 2-3 bunkers at zergs natural ramp hopefully you can get marauders in them in time for spines. try to get a bunker above the ramp it might be possible with a lower defending bunker
this harassment is 3rax, 1gas, orbital, 1 techlab, marauders, bunkers all before expo. after the marauders are going in bunkers you expand at your natural and fly your 2 main raxes to wall off your natural and keep new marines from there defending your natural wall. make scv's and increase bunker count to 5-6 and heck you can probably take a second gas make a factory at your bunkers and start sieging the zerg forcing the zerg to put money into units to break your bunker contain
in my head im thinking this pressure could probably work and the terran would be ahead in supply of the zerg. would love a master zerg i could test this against to see how it fares
this build would be very easy to test. just need a master zerg i play you once and i think my mechanics are good enough to try this build once and if it fails to give me a early lead then i know its bad
or heck a master terran who thinks they are good at zerg (you probably are) PM me and lets play a game tomorrow or whenever, you use zerg and poke holes where you think exist in my idea. but you must go hatch first please. should only take you one game to show me why my sucks.
im just saying ive found incredible success 2gating zerg and i think maybe terrans gotta get back to early pressuring zerg and im thinking technically since terrans have a higher 1base economy you can put on more pressure (3rax instead of 2gate) before expanding while still not being behind economically since a toss i only have 20 probes but terran has 20 scv + mule (which is equal to about 25-26 scv's mining. not 4.5 like some people say. mule is 4.5 optimal scv's which comes out to being like 25% more income since the final scv's you use after 16 are not optimal. 20 probe mineral income is 750, 20 scv+mule mineral income is 950 thats 25%+ income increase)
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zerg here:
2 raxing lost its effectiveness due to the queen buff, it can't be kited by marines and can also kill scvs building bunkers
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Has anyone tried a Ghost Hellion opener? It takes ghosts 4 snipes to kill a queen, so a 2 ghost/4 hellion +Marine Push *might* be viable in the current state of TvZ. You'd need 425 gas, and probably open with a tech lab'd barracks and follow with a reactored Factory while your Ghost Academy is building. If you start the reactor and the Ghost Academy at the same time, it lines up nearly perfectly to have 4 hellions + 2 ghosts.
This is pure theorycrafting though.
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EPT
