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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 25 2012 12:59 Monochromatic wrote:
Has anyone tried a Ghost Hellion opener? It takes ghosts 4 snipes to kill a queen, so a 2 ghost/4 hellion +Marine Push *might* be viable in the current state of TvZ. You'd need 425 gas, and probably open with a tech lab'd barracks and follow with a reactored Factory while your Ghost Academy is building. If you start the reactor and the Ghost Academy at the same time, it lines up nearly perfectly to have 4 hellions + 2 ghosts.
This is pure theorycrafting though.
takes too long...
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Actually I was also quite frustrated by the queen range stopping any early pressure like 2 racks, reaper rush and such. I feel that the queen range made it impossible (or alteast A LOT harder) for Terrans to do any kind of "cheesy" strat. Ofcourse macro games make the viewing experience better for most people, however the chance of a cheese I think should always be there, to keep the Zerg on its toes.
Regarding the rest of the matchup, I'm not having the extreme problems like some of you are describing. I scout with 15 SCV and if I see no gas, I assume he is going mass queens into early third; if he go gas before pool, I can sometime even keep my SCV to see when he mined 100 gas and to see if he start speed or not before I leave with my SCV without losing it to Zerglings. If I see Speedling I assume he is going speedling runby or banelingbust. And if he do, then the "mass queen strat" is never really a problem.
If he play a 2 base all in style. I just defend with hellions, bunker and a siege tank. Since I feel that it's not super risky for Terrans to go 3 OC, I'm in a huge economic advantage if I hold the Zerg players 2 base all in. And I can just do a big push with 3-4 tanks, combat shield and stim; which will kill his third.
On the other hand. If he DO go 0 gas, I know that mass queens are coming which means he has NOOOO possibility to be aggresive. I can therefore EASILY go 3 Orbital Commands at the same time as I put up a QXC bunker infront of his ramp to deny ANY creep spread, and also use 4 hellions to deny any drone trying to take a third. It takes A LOT of Slow lings to break out of 1 bunker and 4 hellions 
For him to break out of this he needs to start mining gas, produce speedlings or banelings, and I will be in the advantage with 3 OC vs 2 hatchery (maybe a third macro hatch).
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On June 25 2012 13:00 leo23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:59 Monochromatic wrote:
Has anyone tried a Ghost Hellion opener? It takes ghosts 4 snipes to kill a queen, so a 2 ghost/4 hellion +Marine Push *might* be viable in the current state of TvZ. You'd need 425 gas, and probably open with a tech lab'd barracks and follow with a reactored Factory while your Ghost Academy is building. If you start the reactor and the Ghost Academy at the same time, it lines up nearly perfectly to have 4 hellions + 2 ghosts.
This is pure theorycrafting though. takes too long...
Agreed.
The problem with alot of strats that people are "trying" is that by the time you can even attack the zerg has already built enough queens/drones/zerglings to beat anything that you want. Currently alot of the newer strategies are just about all-in'ing persay. If the zerg prepares or stops droning for a bit and makes units alot of these strats fall-flat.
There is a big problem with zerg being able to drone freely and then having the time needed to defend a strong push because of the threat of harassment being almost non-existant.
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On June 25 2012 12:55 leo23 wrote:
zerg here:
2 raxing lost its effectiveness due to the queen buff, it can't be kited by marines and can also kill scvs building bunkers
im thinking about building the bunker so far away from the zergs natural queens cant even get there in time. im gonna search for a master zerg (or master terran who thinks they are good at zerg, and you probably are since your a master terran) to test this out once and make a replay
technically im just trying to take my 2gate against zerg and hypothetically i think maybe theres a way to be able to apply just as much pressure as my 2gate with terran while expanding so the same affect happens
also, in the replay im diamond but i was actually top10 masters last season (top10 masters is in my achievements) and i let my cousin play my account and hes diamond level so he lost a ton. anyway whatevers im technically diamond now so you can say i suck blah blah i beat most masters im paired against im not gonna argue about my skill but if my opponent is master caliber then it does not matter.
so im gonna search for a good zerg (pm me if your interested) just play 1 game against me, i think i know enough about this build concept to perform it once. go hatch first against me and show me why this sucks. im thinking the counter will be a massive speedling runby since my bunkers are so far from the natural, run by and attack my main. But if i push into your natural and you dont have spines that could counter the speedling runby we will find out
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On June 25 2012 12:59 Monochromatic wrote:
Has anyone tried a Ghost Hellion opener? It takes ghosts 4 snipes to kill a queen, so a 2 ghost/4 hellion +Marine Push *might* be viable in the current state of TvZ. You'd need 425 gas, and probably open with a tech lab'd barracks and follow with a reactored Factory while your Ghost Academy is building. If you start the reactor and the Ghost Academy at the same time, it lines up nearly perfectly to have 4 hellions + 2 ghosts.
This is pure theorycrafting though.
It takes a unit that costs 200 minerals and 100 gas 100 of its mana to kill a 150 mineral unit made from the hatchery? Yeah, just think about it for a while.
The truth is that everything has been explored, more or less. Unlike PvZ, there are literally no all-ins that work well. Zerg is too damn safe and has insane macro due to injects. Their 150 mineral t1 unit that doesn't cost larave covers macro/defense/creep spread/transfuse/anti-air etc. etc.
What may have once been considered greedy Zerg play has now become 100% safe and standard. Meanwhile the old idea of "Zerg is ahead in econ but trades armies badly so it's fine" is thrown completely out the window since infestor/broodlord is the most cost-efficient composition in the game.
Currently, it's pretty normal for the Zerg to max out a lot earlier than the Terran, and by the time the Terran is maxed out the Zerg will have a pretty massive bank and can of course reinforce instantly, so in theory there really is no way for the Zerg to lose.
Recap: Can't touch Zerg in the early-midgame, can't win in the late-game. It's so massively broken that I've given up on TvZ and just proxy rax or leave every single game. If there is no word from Blizzard in the near future I will switch (back) to Zerg.
And yeah, I've played both races at high master level so I'm not really biased. What used to be a really fun and balanced matchup has become the most broken thing in SC2 history and it saddens me a great deal.
Edit: Got the mana cost wrong.
Edit 2: So did the person I am quoting. As far as I know snipe does 50 damage to queens, so that would be 3 snipes to kill one queen.
Edit 3: Queens have 175 HP.
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On June 25 2012 12:59 Monochromatic wrote:
Has anyone tried a Ghost Hellion opener? It takes ghosts 4 snipes to kill a queen, so a 2 ghost/4 hellion +Marine Push *might* be viable in the current state of TvZ. You'd need 425 gas, and probably open with a tech lab'd barracks and follow with a reactored Factory while your Ghost Academy is building. If you start the reactor and the Ghost Academy at the same time, it lines up nearly perfectly to have 4 hellions + 2 ghosts.
This is pure theorycrafting though.
The problem with any of these builds is they arent reliable. Sure it could work one game, but you could get completely steamrolled the next. it requires your opponent not to scout you and to make no units. If they scout you, you are completely fucked. Need a solid opener that works good and can be transitioned out of vs everything.
Also, things like 2 rax and 2 gate dont work. There is a reason people stopped using them. they arent reliable openers and you are basically just hoping to metagame your opponent (and you have to hope they dont scout at all) 
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On June 25 2012 12:47 andropopp wrote:I think 2raxing might need to come back as a protoss ive started 2gating zerg again with amazing results im almost never behind in supply against zerg anymore heres a replay of my latest PvZ. the idea behind my 2gate is i stop at 20 probes (max 1base mineral saturation), get 3 pylons which goes to 34 food allowing 7 zealots, expand at around 30 food delaying the final 2 zealots while pressuring zerg and as the zerg kills my zealots i can just make more and more while expanding and getting probes the combination of fast zealot pressure makes the zerg produce less drones, and my expansion is pretty fast during this pressure and i end up being ahead of supply of the zerg all game maybe terran can technically apply the same kind of pressure i do as toss and perform the same strategy but heres a thought. because terrans max 1base mineral saturation is 20scv's + mule, maybe terran should 3rax instead of 2rax harass while expanding and get ahead. considering you need 3raxes to equal 2gateways worth of production and also because terrans have more 1base income you can afford some bunkers and that extra rax another thought is bunkers. maybe during this 3rax harassment you can get up 2-3 bunkers by the enemy ramp which stops creep spread from going too far and semi contains the zerg (but maybe speedling runbys can get by). then while massing marines camping outside the enemy natural you can be expanding and making a depot wall in front of your natural keeping some marines home incase of speedling runby in my head it seems like it can work and maybe possibly make it a 2rax with 1rax proxied near your enemys natural so you can get a gas and put a techlab there to get marauders in your bunkers vs spine/queen http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=uploadanyway heres the replay. my idea is technically terran as a race should be able to put as much pressure onto the zerg as i did as protoss, while expanding, keeping his drone count low. it probably would require 3rax pressure before gas even 3rax before orbital possibly because you would wanna spend money on bunker/third rax before your orbital. heres what i think a bo could be optimal 2 raxes at your ramp delayed orbital (to give money for bunkers and third rax) if your on taldar arim, send out 3scouts (1 to each base) when you start your rax so you find your zerg enemy by the time your rax finishes (and you need 3 scv's to protect and set up bunkers) when your 12rax finishes, you should have already found your enemy with 3 scv's heading there (and 1 there). the moment your rax finishes start a bunker far away from the zergs natural hatchery. because the bunker is so far away zerg pulling drones to stop it loses a ton of economy also build a third proxy rax near your bunkers at the zergs natural ramp. im thinking bunker/rax should probably be very far away maybe a couple inches from the zergs ramp on taldar arim stop producing scv's when you have 20 at main, 3 at the zergs base (23 total) put new needed depots at your natural ramp when third rax is starting, while constantly making marines and not getting supply blocked (new depots wall your natural) take a gas and make 3 more scv's for that gas. gas lets you turn proxy rax into techlab+marauders after those 3 extra scv's then get orbital while still making nonstop marines have 2-3 bunkers at zergs natural ramp hopefully you can get marauders in them in time for spines. try to get a bunker above the ramp it might be possible with a lower defending bunker this harassment is 3rax, 1gas, orbital, 1 techlab, marauders, bunkers all before expo. after the marauders are going in bunkers you expand at your natural and fly your 2 main raxes to wall off your natural and keep new marines from there defending your natural wall. make scv's and increase bunker count to 5-6 and heck you can probably take a second gas make a factory at your bunkers and start sieging the zerg forcing the zerg to put money into units to break your bunker contain in my head im thinking this pressure could probably work and the terran would be ahead in supply of the zerg. would love a master zerg i could test this against to see how it fares this build would be very easy to test. just need a master zerg i play you once and i think my mechanics are good enough to try this build once and if it fails to give me a early lead then i know its bad or heck a master terran who thinks they are good at zerg (you probably are) PM me and lets play a game tomorrow or whenever, you use zerg and poke holes where you think exist in my idea. but you must go hatch first please. should only take you one game to show me why my sucks. im just saying ive found incredible success 2gating zerg and i think maybe terrans gotta get back to early pressuring zerg and im thinking technically since terrans have a higher 1base economy you can put on more pressure (3rax instead of 2gate) before expanding while still not being behind economically since a toss i only have 20 probes but terran has 20 scv + mule (which is equal to about 25-26 scv's mining. not 4.5 like some people say. mule is 4.5 optimal scv's which comes out to being like 25% more income since the final scv's you use after 16 are not optimal. 20 probe mineral income is 750, 20 scv+mule mineral income is 950 thats 25%+ income increase)
im down for a game
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On June 25 2012 13:23 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:47 andropopp wrote:I think 2raxing might need to come back as a protoss ive started 2gating zerg again with amazing results im almost never behind in supply against zerg anymore heres a replay of my latest PvZ. the idea behind my 2gate is i stop at 20 probes (max 1base mineral saturation), get 3 pylons which goes to 34 food allowing 7 zealots, expand at around 30 food delaying the final 2 zealots while pressuring zerg and as the zerg kills my zealots i can just make more and more while expanding and getting probes the combination of fast zealot pressure makes the zerg produce less drones, and my expansion is pretty fast during this pressure and i end up being ahead of supply of the zerg all game maybe terran can technically apply the same kind of pressure i do as toss and perform the same strategy but heres a thought. because terrans max 1base mineral saturation is 20scv's + mule, maybe terran should 3rax instead of 2rax harass while expanding and get ahead. considering you need 3raxes to equal 2gateways worth of production and also because terrans have more 1base income you can afford some bunkers and that extra rax another thought is bunkers. maybe during this 3rax harassment you can get up 2-3 bunkers by the enemy ramp which stops creep spread from going too far and semi contains the zerg (but maybe speedling runbys can get by). then while massing marines camping outside the enemy natural you can be expanding and making a depot wall in front of your natural keeping some marines home incase of speedling runby in my head it seems like it can work and maybe possibly make it a 2rax with 1rax proxied near your enemys natural so you can get a gas and put a techlab there to get marauders in your bunkers vs spine/queen http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=uploadanyway heres the replay. my idea is technically terran as a race should be able to put as much pressure onto the zerg as i did as protoss, while expanding, keeping his drone count low. it probably would require 3rax pressure before gas even 3rax before orbital possibly because you would wanna spend money on bunker/third rax before your orbital. heres what i think a bo could be optimal 2 raxes at your ramp delayed orbital (to give money for bunkers and third rax) if your on taldar arim, send out 3scouts (1 to each base) when you start your rax so you find your zerg enemy by the time your rax finishes (and you need 3 scv's to protect and set up bunkers) when your 12rax finishes, you should have already found your enemy with 3 scv's heading there (and 1 there). the moment your rax finishes start a bunker far away from the zergs natural hatchery. because the bunker is so far away zerg pulling drones to stop it loses a ton of economy also build a third proxy rax near your bunkers at the zergs natural ramp. im thinking bunker/rax should probably be very far away maybe a couple inches from the zergs ramp on taldar arim stop producing scv's when you have 20 at main, 3 at the zergs base (23 total) put new needed depots at your natural ramp when third rax is starting, while constantly making marines and not getting supply blocked (new depots wall your natural) take a gas and make 3 more scv's for that gas. gas lets you turn proxy rax into techlab+marauders after those 3 extra scv's then get orbital while still making nonstop marines have 2-3 bunkers at zergs natural ramp hopefully you can get marauders in them in time for spines. try to get a bunker above the ramp it might be possible with a lower defending bunker this harassment is 3rax, 1gas, orbital, 1 techlab, marauders, bunkers all before expo. after the marauders are going in bunkers you expand at your natural and fly your 2 main raxes to wall off your natural and keep new marines from there defending your natural wall. make scv's and increase bunker count to 5-6 and heck you can probably take a second gas make a factory at your bunkers and start sieging the zerg forcing the zerg to put money into units to break your bunker contain in my head im thinking this pressure could probably work and the terran would be ahead in supply of the zerg. would love a master zerg i could test this against to see how it fares this build would be very easy to test. just need a master zerg i play you once and i think my mechanics are good enough to try this build once and if it fails to give me a early lead then i know its bad or heck a master terran who thinks they are good at zerg (you probably are) PM me and lets play a game tomorrow or whenever, you use zerg and poke holes where you think exist in my idea. but you must go hatch first please. should only take you one game to show me why my sucks. im just saying ive found incredible success 2gating zerg and i think maybe terrans gotta get back to early pressuring zerg and im thinking technically since terrans have a higher 1base economy you can put on more pressure (3rax instead of 2gate) before expanding while still not being behind economically since a toss i only have 20 probes but terran has 20 scv + mule (which is equal to about 25-26 scv's mining. not 4.5 like some people say. mule is 4.5 optimal scv's which comes out to being like 25% more income since the final scv's you use after 16 are not optimal. 20 probe mineral income is 750, 20 scv+mule mineral income is 950 thats 25%+ income increase) im down for a game
char #?
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People here missing the fundamental problem. It is not that the queen buff is too strong, it's that Terran cannot take on a zerg in the late game.
My solution:
Limit the amount of larvae per hatchery to ~6, this will help to prevent zerg from exponentially remaxing armies so quickly and force them to manage their hatches/larvae. Right now Zerg's are just mindless injecting all game and with a money/larvae bank they cannot lose.
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I won two TvZ today because 1) my opponent did a blind 2base ling/bane all in when I was going 2 factory BF hellion so I held it off and my mech follow up killed him 2) my opponent went pure broodlord without any infestors so 4 vikings killed his entire army. It seems like I can only win when the zerg makes a catastrophic error.
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On June 25 2012 13:27 Highways wrote:
People here missing the fundamental problem. It is not that the queen buff is too strong, it's that Terran cannot take on a zerg in the late game.
My solution:
Limit the amount of larvae per hatchery to ~6, this will help to prevent zerg from exponentially remaxing armies so quickly and force them to manage their hatches/larvae. Right now Zerg's are just mindless injecting all game and with a money/larvae bank they cannot lose.
I wouldn't say 6
maybe ~11-16 or so to test it out (given the maximum per hatch is 21)
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On June 25 2012 13:27 Highways wrote:
People here missing the fundamental problem. It is not that the queen buff is too strong, it's that Terran cannot take on a zerg in the late game.
My solution:
Limit the amount of larvae per hatchery to ~6, this will help to prevent zerg from exponentially remaxing armies so quickly and force them to manage their hatches/larvae. Right now Zerg's are just mindless injecting all game and with a money/larvae bank they cannot lose.
I can't believe what you just said...
You do know this solution fixes none of the early game problems right now in TvZ right?
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im going to play leo i pmed him my information he says hes a master zerg
im pretty sure i have the idea well enough in my head to do the build properly so if i dont get ahead by the 8 minute mark ill assume it sucks
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On June 25 2012 11:13 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 11:05 DarkerThanKuro wrote:
How about everyone stop crying and start going MKP style TvZ with MMM. You can trade with zerg armies all day if you expand well. Duh! What was I thinking? MKP should keep going MKP style too and continue losing. /watch his stream
Another ad hominem. I think 95% of replies from Zerg players are around the lines of "try harder", "stop whining", "why haven't you done X". I agree with you, I half want to just agree and say: "You know, I should just make more marines, how could I be so bad?"
My favorites:
1) A Zerg player, who upon seeing the DPS chart, said that Reapers are so amazing and "I can't believe Terran doesn't use the,"
2) The other comment a Zerg player made that made me laugh "Maybe Terran's late game is just fine. Maybe they just never played it enough to even know how to play it well."
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On June 25 2012 13:01 xertion wrote:
Actually I was also quite frustrated by the queen range stopping any early pressure like 2 racks, reaper rush and such. I feel that the queen range made it impossible (or alteast A LOT harder) for Terrans to do any kind of "cheesy" strat.
why do people say hings like this? early aggression is still viable in TvZ — I don't even follow professional SC2 much and at least 2 or 3 of the last 5 or so TvZs I've seen were bunker rushes vs hatch-first builds where the terran won.
Aside from that, I still see many games where players lose to hellions early on — I saw it happen to idra just from watching like 3 of his games.
Queens don't completely nullify early aggression by anything except reapers (which aren't completely nullified, but are mostly nullified), they just help out zerg to deal with some problems that have consistently been around for a long time (and still are important challenges for zergs to watch out for and learn to deal with).
With regards to reapers, there is definitely a problem, but with the buff in HOTS that won't be long-lived. They should implement that change BEFORE HOTS though (i.e. now would work)
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On June 25 2012 13:31 andropopp wrote:
im going to play leo i pmed him my information he says hes a master zerg
im pretty sure i have the idea well enough in my head to do the build properly so if i dont get ahead by the 8 minute mark ill assume it sucks
HEy, we wanna know what happened lol.
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On June 25 2012 13:56 WeddingEpisode wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 13:31 andropopp wrote:
im going to play leo i pmed him my information he says hes a master zerg
im pretty sure i have the idea well enough in my head to do the build properly so if i dont get ahead by the 8 minute mark ill assume it sucks HEy, we wanna know what happened lol.
the build got pwned. its way too slow. i know now that idea i wrote is 100% never going to work
i knew i was behind at 8 minutes so i left the game i didnt apply the kind of pressure i hoped for
i know my 2gate works against zergs i dominate with it. im trying to develope a way for terran to apply the same amount of pressure as my 2gate but its hard
i have a couple other ideas that im working on trying to see if that concept can work (applying the same amount of pressure as my 2gate while expanding) but the one i tried against the master zerg failed horribly
if i wanna try any more builds i can maybe try again if he aint busy in a few days or whatever
sadly, zero success right now. maybe one of other ideas will work
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On June 25 2012 13:51 zmansman17 wrote:
Another ad hominem. I think 95% of replies from Zerg players are around the lines of "try harder", "stop whining", "why haven't you done X".
If you read and count the posts in this thread like that, it isn't anywhere near 95%.
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Its a ploy to get tournaments to add destructible rocks to all 3rd's.
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On June 25 2012 14:03 andropopp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 13:56 WeddingEpisode wrote:On June 25 2012 13:31 andropopp wrote:
im going to play leo i pmed him my information he says hes a master zerg
im pretty sure i have the idea well enough in my head to do the build properly so if i dont get ahead by the 8 minute mark ill assume it sucks HEy, we wanna know what happened lol. the build got pwned. its way too slow. i know now that idea i wrote is 100% never going to work
Marines have range 5. Marauders 6. Spike crawler 7. Queens are, well, queens. Useful little buggers.
If you're playing against a moderately "greedy" zerg on a moderately sized map, there's a good chance the zerg's going to go 2nd hatchery/spawning pool. The idea behind proxy rax into close bunker (often with 2+ SCV) is you pop it down not too long after the natural starts. Cancellation costs the Zerg 75 minerals, and though a Zerg may either go ninja expansion or send to 3rd position, the Terran can then deal with a split off base. If the Zerg doesn't cancel, you have a bunker established close enough to shoot up the natural, that is to kill off a 300 mineral hatchery. Often the Zerg scouts you out with a zergling especially at decent scouting levels. Once SCVs are scouted, the Zerg typically starts zerglings ASAP, then it's a race between probably 3 bunker constructions, at least 1 of which often fails, and marines and zerglings. So suppose you do very decently, and establish your bunker. At that point, it serves as your base for marines, marauders, whatever - they've all got range. Cheese rush whatever, just another tool in the Terran arsenal.
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Now consider your proposal. 2 barracks at main (not proxy). 3 early scout SCV. Initial bunker placement far away from the natural.
This slows everything down. Fewer minerals for early development. Marines are going to be much much slower to get to the natural. Your bunkers are too far to do any damage, so the zerg doesn't need to deal with it right away. For example you can run into situations in which the zerg just sends a chunk of zerglings to cut off reinforcements. (Of course the zerg still has to deal with the forward marines and SCVs but that shouldn't be too awful as I will detail in a minute).
As for bunkers, putting them far away to begin with makes it more likely that the second hatchery will get established, plus gives the zerg more time to look for shenanigans. It doesn't seem to be too awful, really, because 3 SCVs putting down bunkers far away means, as you wrote, that the Zerg probably really can't crush the bunkers. But the bunkers are too far away to do anything.
By the time you get in close, assuming the Zerg doesn't do a decent/lucky scout and hits the bunkers as they go up (this isn't a fault of your proposal, this can always happen, not a horrible deal), the way I figure it, you will have been scouted for sure, the natural has been established, and a patch of creep set up.
So you have two hatcheries pumping out larva. There will be 2 queens, 2 spike crawlers coming down from the main, plus zerglings. This is about the minimum. (The zerg will have made zerglings in case you decided to just trek marines into the base, and spikes for similar reasons and to set up for defense of the natural.) You're going to get more queens and more zerglings on the way. With drones and production pushed into zergling and creep colonies, there's some chance the queens will have saved energy for transfer instead of larvae. On the way will be at least 2 more queens, and you may have to deal with I would guess 1-2 more spike crawlers.
So now you're in a situation in which your forward bunker placements are restricted. Spike crawlers have more range than anything in a bunker. At best, the Terran offensive at this point looks pretty chancy. This is the point at which you have to seriously start worrying about zerglings running out and cutting off reinforcements and attacking your main. If you jump out of your bunkers to try to whack out spike crawlers, then queens and zerglings gang up on you, plus of course the spikes targeting down your marauders. And you can't heal. Plus you've given up all kinds of economic development by rushing bunkers instead of at least going 2 OCC. Even if you just stay where you are, spike colonies outrange bunkers, so they reposition and start poking those bunkers.
At this point is isn't so much a question of drone pull. Drone pull is what you get when Zerg is trying to whack out bunkers that are proximate to the natural, not just because of the investment of the hatchery, but because of the build time. Even cancellation of the natural sets Zerg timing back. What you do have is spike colonies sitting out of range, with queens and zerglings acting as backup in case your bio pops out of bunkers. Plus zerglings and queens will be targeting down your SCVs.
Now all this really isn't bad at all. Sure, I make it sound bad, but realistically, you've got some nice things going on for Terran at this point. Creep containment, pressure on zerg. Your economy frankly isn't good, but then, the zerg's been pressured so has had to sacrifice economic development as well. Even the resources you spent on bunkers can be very much salvaged. Since your barracks are at your main, and you likely have walloff, zergling runby into your main shouldn't be too much of a problem. With a few backup bunkers, you can probably pop your SCVs in and out like whackamole Brood War.
But consider all the advantages you've gained and compare to a proxy rax/multi SCV bunker rush setting up right on the natural's doorstep. You've given up perhaps a bit more with the additional bunkers you've placed, and given the Zerg fairly more time to respond, which can be very nasty if, say, the Zerg had 4 spike crawlers instead of 2, plus of course there's the problem of 2 functional hatcheries lending to the Zerg defense and established creep at the natural. Once you're forced to retreat, and there's a good chance of that, Zerg will be set to quickly drone up 2 functional hatcheries and very possibly immediate 3rd for big economic boost. Besides that, there's some chance there will be a few zerglings set to cut off your retreat and cost you army. (Along with, of course, zerglings from the main/natural).
Just looking at the initial proposal, my impression was that it probably gives up a good chunk of resources in investment and opportunity cost, without a likely chance of regaining cost, and without the pressure that makes rax/close bunker viable.
The queen range buff is pretty important, because with the previous range, you could often snipe out queens to recoup investment. But with increased range, they can often contribute decently to the fight without having to walk too far forward into the field of fire. Once they're targeted down, they just run off.
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EPT
