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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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My zerg friend:
"Wow what the fuck. This is a waste of time. This is such a broken matchup LOL".
I think it's pretty apparent to everyone how much better Zerg is now...
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I think we can maybe come up with a way to calculate adjusted skill TvZ winrates on TLPD
1) first you gotta make sure every tournament game is in the TLPD
2) make a table with every TvZ terran players on the left, zergs on the right. with a column next to it saying T or Z wins
3) then make a seocnd table just listing every player. calculate every TvZ game instantly and start every player with 500 points. Then every game a player has won against zerg he takes 10points from the enemy, and vise versa
4) this instant calculation can then be used to go to the first table and give a point rating to each player
5) go to the first table and then take every TvZ game and now add the players point rating next to his name. this then allows you to sorta get a grasp of a players skill within the games
6) now when looking at table one you dont just see TvZ's, you see TvZ's and each player has a point rating. next you can look at all the TvZ games between players with high point ratings and see what the winrate is between two players with high point rating compared to a fight between two players with low point rating
i know the general concept is confusing but I think some kinda system like that could show the winrate in a better way
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On June 25 2012 00:40 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 00:24 gfever wrote:On June 25 2012 00:13 zmansman17 wrote:On June 25 2012 00:06 gfever wrote:
I'm GM and I don't find the queen range changes much of my play at all. I open hellion banshee in TvZ and still kill zergs if they take greedy 3rds or roast their drone lines, even aganist 5+ queens. Its just ppl havn't tried to push the limits of positioning and tactical runbys yet.
For lategame, terrans keep thinking that army vs army is enough. They havn't utilized PFs in main points on the map. If you have say 2 PFs in the middle of the map which you should take inorder to counter mass queen builds since their army is much smaller and would most likely tech to broodlords. Once you take that position you can just starve the zerg by snipeing expos from different angles because you have control of the middle. Broodlords are slow so his only option is to attack straight on. He can't protect all his bases once the map is cut in half. Mass repair the 2 pfs and it will never fall. Theres too much stuff pros arn't doing enough, they need to pull ideas from BW now for the metagames to shift. I don't believe this until I see replays. If you are a high level TvZ, the new queen buff will certainly affect you http://drop.sc/203983http://drop.sc/203984http://drop.sc/203985http://drop.sc/203986Heres 4 replays demostrating what I mean. I believe these are early-mid game harassment styles, this was played the week b4 GM for the this new season. Comon dude don't lie. None of these games are GM worthy and none of the players, including you, are GM.
Yeah I just looked him up through all seasons and he's never been more than mid master in any season, and certainly not GM. These players that you play are terrible
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i don't always post.. but when i do, its because MU is imba. can't wait for June race win ratio
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On June 25 2012 02:35 toiletCAT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 02:30 Snowbear wrote:I am watching mkp's stream. He is playing against a zerg, and his maxed army gets owned by ultra ling bling infestor, again and again and again. So sad  Yeah, Queen so strong.
Yeah you also have to love when MKP offraced as Zerg and Protoss and beat two top 16 GMs on Korean server. Don't know why he doesn't just switch. A player of his caliber, like most of the Korean Terrans, would break this game if they switched over to Zerg or Protoss.
That's the real reason Terran has been strong. The race has been weak ever since the rax nerf.
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On June 25 2012 05:15 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 02:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 25 2012 02:30 Snowbear wrote:I am watching mkp's stream. He is playing against a zerg, and his maxed army gets owned by ultra ling bling infestor, again and again and again. So sad Yeah, Queen so strong. Yeah you also have to love when MKP offraced as Zerg and Protoss and beat two top 16 GMs on Korean server. Don't know why he doesn't just switch. A player of his caliber, like most of the Korean Terrans, would break this game if they switched over to Zerg or Protoss. That's the real reason Terran has been strong. The race has been weak ever since the rax nerf.
Careful now, suggesting that the Korean Terrans are simply the best players might get you crucified.
But if you say that foreign Zerg/Protoss players happen to be better than their Terran counterparts, that's fine.
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Worth highlighting since the initial post appeared to be mis-information. These are the stats from the GSTL and GSL. I would tend to agree that a 20-4 TvZ record in any other Korean arena seems unlikely. Maybe the OP will respond and clarify?
Again, I'm intrigued by how much hate Terrans are getting from Zerg players. Instead of addressing the issue in a reasonable way, it's mostly ad hominem coming from these players. Even the OP here stated "you whiny Terrans". Others have stated "learn to play", "why don't you just adapt, we did", from earlier in this thread.
I think the Zerg players know that Terran is weak and instead of having a candid discussion of the state of the game, they want to glean their huge advantage and take more ladder points.
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On June 25 2012 03:33 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 03:30 ArchAngelSC wrote:On June 25 2012 03:26 roymarthyup wrote:On June 25 2012 03:15 Snowbear wrote:On June 25 2012 02:41 roymarthyup wrote:
give me any 140food zerg army and ill list a terran army that should crush it
Okay: 20 infestors, 15 broodlords, 19 corruptors and 1 overseer in the back. 1 overseer is unfair. make it 5 overseers they cost no food and is generally good to get vs cloak emp 20 infestors 40 food 15 broodlords 60 food 20 corrupters 40 food 5 overseers 0 food and i guess yeah probably in a real hyper lategame zergs army would be 60 drones + 3 queens injecting so that means a 134food zerg army vs 140food terran army but for points sake lets say its 140 vs 140 in the unit tester the army to kill that is 38 vikings, 6 ravens (for 12 PDD's), 14 hellions, 4thors this actually would be a cool thing to test since its hard to micro both sides if someone wants to hop in a unit tester with me we can make both armies and clash them im pretty sure with minimal micro the terran army wins The difference between those two army comps is the zerg one is realistic whereas the terran is just a joke comp which is why i said terran units dont need to be buffed, terran as a race needs to be buffed because zerg as a race makes their units in a way 500x more powerful than terran can make their units if you buff terran units your going in the wrong direction. give any zerg 140food army and i can give you the 140food terran counter army however the terran army is unrealistic, because terran is a broken race that should be fixed fix terran as a race dont buff terran lategame units (small buffs i can agree with like feedback vs thors/bc's needs to be fixed. but if you dont fix terran as a race, then small buffs to their lategame units wont change the matchup at all)
Haha, now Terran is the broken race? 6 months ago Terran was the only race that was fine or "complete" and the other two were broken or "unfinished".
My opinion? If some breakthrough isn't found in the next month or two, something needs to be done. Because right now, Zerg gets 3 bases for free and it is plain unfair.
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On June 25 2012 05:24 zmansman17 wrote:Worth highlighting since the initial post appeared to be mis-information. These are the stats from the GSTL and GSL. I would tend to agree that a 20-4 TvZ record in any other Korean arena seems unlikely. Maybe the OP will respond and clarify? Again, I'm intrigued by how much hate Terrans are getting from Zerg players. Instead of addressing the issue in a reasonable way, it's mostly ad hominem coming from these players. Even the OP here stated "you whiny Terrans". Others have stated "learn to play", "why don't you just adapt, we did", from earlier in this thread. I think the Zerg players know that Terran is weak and instead of having a candid discussion of the state of the game, they want to glean their huge advantage and take more ladder points.
On June 25 2012 00:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
I said they're a bit weak right now because they are. Everybody should realize that.
The whole point I'm trying to make, and I don't even know why I bother anymore, is that as a Zerg player, the new queen feels good, and not in a "hey, not its MY turn to be OP" kind of way, but in a general "this just feels better" kind of way.
The problem with Zerg is that early units are hugely detrimental to your viability to win games to the point where as Zerg, its not uncommon to lose games because you did an early attack, it was successful, and you lose anyway because, well, that's how it is...
The same goes with defending. See what your opponent is making, make the perfect counter, lose anyway because you had to make units to defend.
The queen acting as an early game "safe" unit fixes a giant gaping hole in the Zerg design.
This zerg player pretty much reaffirms your hypothesis
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On June 25 2012 05:24 zmansman17 wrote:
Again, I'm intrigued by how much hate Terrans are getting from Zerg players. Instead of addressing the issue in a reasonable way, it's mostly ad hominem coming from these players. Even the OP here stated "you whiny Terrans". Others have stated "learn to play", "why don't you just adapt, we did", from earlier in this thread.
Its especially funny when you look at all the changes in the game since the times zerg was doing badly. Pretty much everything terran-related has been nerfed, while zergs have had buffs after buffs. The maps have been made to favor zergs. The metagame has moved towards longer macro games where zergs excel.
Yet we have zergs trashtalking terran players now that the balancing process went too far off the other edge. Its like they learned nothing from when the time they were underpowered themselves.
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On June 25 2012 05:15 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 02:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 25 2012 02:30 Snowbear wrote:I am watching mkp's stream. He is playing against a zerg, and his maxed army gets owned by ultra ling bling infestor, again and again and again. So sad Yeah, Queen so strong. Yeah you also have to love when MKP offraced as Zerg and Protoss and beat two top 16 GMs on Korean server. Don't know why he doesn't just switch. A player of his caliber, like most of the Korean Terrans, would break this game if they switched over to Zerg or Protoss.That's the real reason Terran has been strong. The race has been weak ever since the rax nerf.
Well MKP is one of the really best Terrans right now.
And Koreans are really known for their strong offrace(MC,MVP,MKP,even Inca offrace as terran and beat Grubby).
But your claim that if they(most Korean Terrans) switched over to Zerg or Protoss will break the game is utter nonsense and on what basis can you even say that.Just because zerg is favored now in ZvT?
There are also plenty of times Terran was favored in TvZ.
Well i could even say that Nestea would break the game if he ever switched to Terran back then in GomTvT.
(Nestea is the only zerg back then winning 3 championship)
But that would sound stupid doesn't it?
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Click on the right to get to korean tlpd and just count the wins from june, thats how the monthly graphs are done too
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On June 20 2012 14:45 CaptainCharisma wrote:
TvZ win rate was pretty good for a long time. Blizzard decide to change the game in Zerg's favour for no particular reason, but the stock response from non-terrans is just "learn to change up your game".
It must suck to be a pro Terran player.
Not that i agree with the buff or anything, but this is what zerg felt like in early WoL, i mean blue flame hellions used to do double the damage, and immediately end games for like a YEAR after release. All zerg cries for help just got replied with "change up your game" too, as much as i want a perfectly balanced game, its just nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change
Don't want to comment on the buff, because i'm not a top player, but i hope to see what all pro players can agree is balanced soon. Personally, i think the buff helps from all instant losses that normally occur, but this is low league play (high plat) i'm talking about here.
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On June 25 2012 05:48 Blackalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:45 CaptainCharisma wrote:
TvZ win rate was pretty good for a long time. Blizzard decide to change the game in Zerg's favour for no particular reason, but the stock response from non-terrans is just "learn to change up your game".
It must suck to be a pro Terran player. Not that i agree with the buff or anything, but this is what zerg felt like in early WoL, i mean blue flame hellions used to do double the damage, and immediately end games for like a YEAR after release. All zerg cries for help just got replied with "change up your game" too, as much as i want a perfectly balanced game, its just nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change Don't want to comment on the buff, because i'm not a top player, but i hope to see what all pro players can agree is balanced soon. Personally, i think the buff helps from all instant losses that normally occur, but this is low league play (high plat) i'm talking about here.
If I remember correctly, the zerg cry for help was immidiatly answered after the "SlayerS MLG", when BFH were used by their terran player squad, and completly surprised evreryone. A patch to nerf BFH was seen very quck, without any attempt to let zerg players adept.
the replays are still available. If you take a close look on some of them, you will notice, that zerg players at that time had no experience with BFH (drop)strategies. They made mistakes handling it, like pulling drones and "liiiine them uuuup.
I highly doubt good zerg players would do so badly today, because by now, zerg players have become far better reacting to drops and at scouting.
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On June 25 2012 05:15 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 02:35 toiletCAT wrote:On June 25 2012 02:30 Snowbear wrote:I am watching mkp's stream. He is playing against a zerg, and his maxed army gets owned by ultra ling bling infestor, again and again and again. So sad Yeah, Queen so strong. Yeah you also have to love when MKP offraced as Zerg and Protoss and beat two top 16 GMs on Korean server. Don't know why he doesn't just switch. A player of his caliber, like most of the Korean Terrans, would break this game if they switched over to Zerg or Protoss. That's the real reason Terran has been strong. The race has been weak ever since the rax nerf.
MKP played Protoss in BW and offraces a ton. That doesn't say much.
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On June 25 2012 05:48 Blackalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 14:45 CaptainCharisma wrote:
TvZ win rate was pretty good for a long time. Blizzard decide to change the game in Zerg's favour for no particular reason, but the stock response from non-terrans is just "learn to change up your game".
It must suck to be a pro Terran player. Not that i agree with the buff or anything, but this is what zerg felt like in early WoL, i mean blue flame hellions used to do double the damage, and immediately end games for like a YEAR after release. All zerg cries for help just got replied with "change up your game" too, as much as i want a perfectly balanced game, its just nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change Don't want to comment on the buff, because i'm not a top player, but i hope to see what all pro players can agree is balanced soon. Personally, i think the buff helps from all instant losses that normally occur, but this is low league play (high plat) i'm talking about here.
most of the changes were indirectly or directly helping zergs
this is coming from a player that played Z for the first year, and then went for T
zzz (note back then I only switched cause of roach ZvZ and ZvP... and cause I hate roaches)
so /shrug
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Ummm - no to argue the point but the GSL stats include Up&Downs which were played in May.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:07 pmp10 wrote:Ummm - no to argue the point but the GSL stats include Up&Downs which were played in May.
The Patch came in on May 10th, up and downs were on the 21st. Talking about different things, but games post patch as a whole are more relevant than this month alone.
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On June 25 2012 06:01 Tryagain4free wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 05:48 Blackalpha wrote:On June 20 2012 14:45 CaptainCharisma wrote:
TvZ win rate was pretty good for a long time. Blizzard decide to change the game in Zerg's favour for no particular reason, but the stock response from non-terrans is just "learn to change up your game".
It must suck to be a pro Terran player. Not that i agree with the buff or anything, but this is what zerg felt like in early WoL, i mean blue flame hellions used to do double the damage, and immediately end games for like a YEAR after release. All zerg cries for help just got replied with "change up your game" too, as much as i want a perfectly balanced game, its just nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change Don't want to comment on the buff, because i'm not a top player, but i hope to see what all pro players can agree is balanced soon. Personally, i think the buff helps from all instant losses that normally occur, but this is low league play (high plat) i'm talking about here. If I remember correctly, the zerg cry for help was immidiatly answered after the "SlayerS MLG", when BFH were used by their terran player squad, and completly surprised evreryone. A patch to nerf BFH was seen very quck, without any attempt to let zerg players adept. the replays are still available. If you take a close look on some of them, you will notice, that zerg players at that time had no experience with BFH (drop)strategies. They made mistakes handling it, like pulling drones and "liiiine them uuuup. I highly doubt good zerg players would do so badly today, because by now, zerg players have become far better reacting to drops and at scouting.
Nah It was the stupid 1 proxy rax reaper to 5 rax reaper that was insanely broken during earlier GSL Seasons that zergs started crying heavily.
Coupled with the small and shitty maps(Steps of War,Lost Temple(abusive siege tank position),Jungle Basin).
Terran was really really strong back then.XD
If i am not mistaken,wasn't BFH patched because of TvT mech?.
I am pretty sure it is.
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EPT
