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Vatican City State582 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:13 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:58 LimitSEA wrote:
Zerg doing well now. Terrans just need to figure out new ways to deal with the queen buff and it'll go back to normal.
No, we don't. Blizzard needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that the last two patches have been pointless, and awful for the game.
While I do agree with you that the majority of the buffs/nerfs from the previous patch were unnecessary, I still think that Terran play should not be confined or shaped already. There is still room for evolution 
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On June 07 2012 20:56 rtgICEMAN wrote:
Maybe they should give queen 5 range only on creep and 3 range off-creep.
I don't know what that would change. Most of the time, queens are on creep anyway, and they can defend pressure and deny scouting without moving too much.
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Terran is balanced around MVP. He singlehandly got ghost nerfed. If MVP is still winning terran won'tt get buffed. lol
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On June 07 2012 19:33 dani` wrote:
Sick Zerg winrate in ZvT @ Korea (61%), while Protoss winrate in PvT @ Korea is balanced (47.5%). So I guess now Terrans will start complaining about Zerg instead of Protoss ^_^?
Interesting that Zerg struggles a bit vP in Korea but internationally it is much more fair (42.9% vs 52.5%). Though I guess it has been the case recently Korean Protosses do better vZ than foreigners.
My feelings on this:
TvP - Doable, since protoss has weaknesses in the midgame, which you *can* abuse. Protoss just doesn't have the map presence and solid enough playstyle where there's nowhere you can deal dmg. It is hard you are fighting an uphill battle(where time is never on your side), but it can be done.
TvZ - The zerg can scout what you are doing and assuming he knows the correct answer, can muster a defense. Your army is weaker, slower, you don't have any relevant map control(when you do, it really doesn't matter) and your lategame is far far far worse.
In vP you can win early game without any(crucial) mistakes made by your opponent and you can get build order wins. In vZ you just have to be the better player or the zerg needs to play bad.
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I honestly don't think its the queen buff thats screwing terran over but the fact that zergs have finally figured out how ZVT works, and ling infestor is so powerful that it pretty much secures a lategame outcome for them. I believe terran may have a late game but we will just see if it will come before hots releases. I rarely play sc2 anymore because the game just feels unfinished without the other expansions, and has too my variance. I only watch korean terrans play because imo TvX are the most enjoying to watch matchups. Just means I'll be watching less sc2 then..
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I'm not surprised about the TvZ winrate. TvP was already a shit matchup and they went ahead and fucked up TvZ too. I basically quit the game because of TvZ, terran arent favored in any of the two match ups and always have to be the aggressor. They took away all the early harass options. Zergs just basically make a bunch of queens, get quick infestation pit, tech to broods or ultras depending on your unit composition. If you're lucky, you'll be able to get a good trade but then their huge bank will overwhelm you.
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On June 07 2012 21:24 Raid wrote:
I only watch korean terrans play because imo TvX are the most enjoying to watch matchups. Just means I'll be watching less sc2 then..
What do you mean? Terran is the most plentiful race in both Code S and Code A.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:29 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 21:24 Raid wrote:
I only watch korean terrans play because imo TvX are the most enjoying to watch matchups. Just means I'll be watching less sc2 then.. What do you mean? Terran is the most plentiful race in both Code S and Code A.
code S? previous season? did you even watch it?
look it up before you pull things out of your......hat?
and before you even mention code A, you know how it works right? The *plentiful* Terran players get knocked out of code S, where do they go? OH WAIIIITTT.
/criticalthinkplease
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On June 07 2012 21:24 Raid wrote:
I honestly don't think its the queen buff thats screwing terran over but the fact that zergs have finally figured out how ZVT works, and ling infestor is so powerful that it pretty much secures a lategame outcome for them. I believe terran may have a late game but we will just see if it will come before hots releases. I rarely play sc2 anymore because the game just feels unfinished without the other expansions, and has too my variance. I only watch korean terrans play because imo TvX are the most enjoying to watch matchups. Just means I'll be watching less sc2 then..
Definitely the two latest Zerg buffs.
It gave Zerg players the confidence to basically get away with everything.
2 rax is almost dead (see multiple attempts at proxies in last GSL matches, held off except for aLive's, vs Leenock), queen can almost kite marines (which is the reverse of what happened before) and scouting overlords cover more of the map in the same travel time now (so proxy are more easily detected).
Hellion expand is useless unless you commit heavily in hellions (6+) or even transition into double fact, 2-3 queens easily repel the usual number, without having the need for a wall off or roaches, even a spinecrawler.
So basically Terrans are left with 1 rax CC, into...well, what they can. Zergs take a fast third as a consequence, and BAM, you have ZvP v2, without P's strong lategame and warpgate-based all ins.
The only viable way of playing I've seen is a really fast third into heavy upgrades and huge macro game (like MKP). But you need top notch micro to defend the "not-so-all-in" roach bane all-ins.
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On June 07 2012 21:24 Raid wrote:
I honestly don't think its the queen buff thats screwing terran over but the fact that zergs have finally figured out how ZVT works, and ling infestor is so powerful that it pretty much secures a lategame outcome for them. I believe terran may have a late game but we will just see if it will come before hots releases. I rarely play sc2 anymore because the game just feels unfinished without the other expansions, and has too my variance. I only watch korean terrans play because imo TvX are the most enjoying to watch matchups. Just means I'll be watching less sc2 then..
A combination of zergs figuring out the game, realizing how strong ling infestor is was slowly turning the matchup more and more zerg favored, but at least terrans had options. The ghost snipe nerf gimped terran in the lategame, and the queen buff screwed them over in the earlygame up to the lategame where they needed to do some damage to begin with. I cannot fathom how these two changes could even have gone through, and we're seeing the result of them now.
Something similar is happening in TvP, where protosses will get better and better at defending early/midgame harasses and have the lategame advantage, but at least Blizzard aren't interfering and helping them out at this point to further compound the issue.
If a race is expected of to have to deal damage or be behind, that race will be screwed over the longer the game goes on, simply because people get better and better at defending while macroing up while timing pushes rarely evolve past their intent.
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Well, only the better players will win with terran now.
But we have plenty of terran who play better than any zerg/protoss in the scene so it's okay.
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On June 07 2012 21:05 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:05 Bodzilla wrote:On June 07 2012 20:00 Embir wrote:On June 07 2012 19:55 Bodzilla wrote:
I stopped playing zerg after 2 years because i thought they where getting too strong.
played random for a bit, and now main terran.
Same here - except i switched immadiately to terran. Nonethless I feel TvP is much more shitty match-up, at least in lategame against Zerg i can still win - it is just very map dependent. experiment with Mech. Mech's viable. I've personally never built a maruder. i just hate them so i refuse to build them. This . I've played bio in the past , but it's not the way of the future . The ghost nerf and protoss upgrades buff was the last straw . Bio isn't cost effective vs protoss after middle game , even with the best micro you could do you could still end up even or behind the toss . The problem really is that storm is to cost effective vs bio and collosus forces unupgraded vikings that don't mix well with the bio army other then taking out collosus . The biggest problem with bio is that it's depended on a useless medivac that it could be sniped easily with feedback and focus fire while retreating , because you can't physicaly micro both your bio and the medivacs at the same time and do well with both . Mech is the way of the future - mixing in Mech + Air units as part of the the mech composition . Also 10 years of BW progaming has taught us how to use mech vs Protoss , the only thing you need to do is scout what your opponent's army composition is and adjust to it . Tanks , Hellions , Viking , Banshees , Ravens , Thors and BC's , and using the medivac as how it was ment to be used only as a dropship can battle what protoss has to throw effectively . Ghosts are good support units that mix -in really well with mech late game EMP + tank damage rips appart the protoss ground army . I would much rather learn to play mech then stick with playing bio against protoss , because it has no future . From what i've seen from Blizzard in HOTS only mech gets the new stuff while bio remains the same . Knowing that i don't know why Pros still consistently use bio , then try and develop mech builds . When i am fighting a protoss army with similar supply i don't feel at a disadvantage when i am using mech , unlike lategame bio .
Well I'm much more pessimist, I feel like mech has absolutely no future, despite what battlehellions and warhounds are supposed to bring to the table.
First of all, TvP in broodwar was so different. In sc2, protoss units exploit mech's lack of mobility way too easily, now that all the maps are so big. Chargelot and blink are too good for slow and ranged units. Tanks no longer have a zone defense like spider mines. The slow mech production is kind of poor when compared to instantly built/teleported warpgate units. Also, good luck avoiding vortex with turtlespeed units like tanks, bc, ravens and thors. And immortals, oh immortals, they sure are crazy good ...
In bw, feedback was an ability for the DA, better said for a unit that had no place in PvT. In sc2, this ability goes to the HT. Banshees, thors, ravens, battlecruisers, medivacs and ghosts are all countered by the HT, it's ridiculous how cost effective this unit is, specially with the storm and archon morphing abilities. Terrans have way too many energy based units, at least much more than P and Z. Some of these units should get a cooldown ability.
Last point is the mule. The terran "macro ability" favors a mineral heavy army. Going mech means not exploiting this ability to its fullest capacity since mech requires a lot of gas.
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Please stop crying about Korean TvZ when it doesn't even contain 200 games, and alot of those games were from BO1 series and not legit series. I wish the fucking people making these maps would just not do this when the sample size is small, or REITERATE IT IN CAPS SO PEOPLE SEE. Every single month we get 10+ pages of constant whining with no mods in here cleaning it up, when half of them can't read graphs correctly, and the other half doesn't even attempt to.
Haven't you guys learned to not trust win rate graphs untill 2 months after patches? You really can't look at a winrate graph that has a patch smack dab in the middle of it
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interesting... I still feel there are serious issues in TvP too but I guess people are getting sharper with midgame attacks to balance it out. Did not expect 60-40 in ZvT... I think the winrate will go down a bit next month..the best terrans are in Code S and they don't play nearly as often. Terran definitely needs something...
It seems so hard to really fix any of the issues that blizzard created with this game bc they break the other matchups..
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Russian Federation823 Posts
I don't understand how TvP can still be terran favored in Korea... i mean...do they all cheese or have they found a late game solution?
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On June 07 2012 21:35 Noocta wrote:
Well, only the better players will win with terran now.
But we have plenty of terran who play better than any zerg/protoss in the scene so it's okay.
imo, every terran is better than the zergs and protosses of similar skill.
But ugh. That TvZ looks terrible.
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I'd like to point out that this means that Terrans did not bounce back from April's slump in TvZ TLPD April (They did against P, though).
As the Terran nerfing patch hit only at the end of May, I expect the trend to be even worse in June.
The writing was on the wall, Blizz, but "Terran is doing well at the highest levels of competition."
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The TvZ balance changes seem to follow a trend.
"That thing zergs have trouble with, can they deal with it yet?"
- Yes DB
"Okay, buff ´em so they don't have to deal with it anymore."
I don't think this one is going to be that huge though.
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On June 07 2012 21:36 ohampatu wrote:
Please stop crying about Korean TvZ when it doesn't even contain 200 games, and alot of those games were from BO1 series and not legit series. I wish the fucking people making these maps would just not do this when the sample size is small, or REITERATE IT IN CAPS SO PEOPLE SEE. Every single month we get 10+ pages of constant whining with no mods in here cleaning it up, when half of them can't read graphs correctly, and the other half doesn't even attempt to.
Haven't you guys learned to not trust win rate graphs untill 2 months after patches? You really can't look at a winrate graph that has a patch smack dab in the middle of it
Pretty sure those 2 bottom graphs show standard deviation, which shows the possible... error that the graphs might be effected by. Lack of games is therefore taken into account there.
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EPT
