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On June 07 2012 20:43 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:39 Fuzer wrote:On June 07 2012 20:36 Logros wrote:On June 07 2012 20:29 Fuzer wrote:
Lets not forget GSTL winrates.
Terran- 3W 16L
Protoss- 20W 18L
Zerg- 37W 26L Lets not forget that the last GSL Code S had 7 Zergs and 15 Terrans and no Zergs in the Ro16. I don't play Zerg myself but I'm glad they're doing better again so we get to see all matchups in Code S. So you say because terrans have won in the past its balanced that its Zerg turn to be the best race?  I'm saying that we're finally getting close to having all races represented evenly in Code S after many many many many season of Terrans being overrepresented. Did you forget MVP (a Terran) won the GSL only a couple of weeks ago stomping through everyone? If Zergs continue to win every single game against Terrans then I'm sure Blizzard will react, but a lot of losses in the GSTL have been to stupid moves from Terrans as well, it's a tiny sample size.
Well first MVP only played protoss... I am not a person that will whine to blizzard to reverse this change, but good god just revert the snipe change and let us use ghosts again (RIght now they dont have a place in TvZ EMP radius is to small and the snipe is just horrible. IF they change one and they will be useful again OR change both, but still make them worse than they were originally)
With the queen change and the metagame allowing zergs to have transfuses lategame will make ghosts less powerful than original even if they get their snipe reverted. Ohh and I miss ghost rushing in TvT o.o
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On June 07 2012 20:42 m0ck wrote:
Time for the ghost-nerf to be reversed?
Hope not, the ghost was pretty ridiculus pre-nerf. Buffing should go elsewhere.
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Germany1287 Posts
On June 07 2012 20:42 mEtRoSG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:35 zere wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:which means tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now Ever! In the world! Congrats to everyone jumping on the Korean ZvT train over this samplesize of 115 games. Congrats. sample size is 1,6k games for tvz alone of which only a few have been on the new patch...do u think it will get better with a bigger amount of games played with the queen buff? as we can see in the gstl, tahts not the case  if u dont like the 1,6k sampel size take the 10k smaple size of international events where tvz is 45%... or wait until teh sillieness which will be the june winrates :D
Your 60-40 samplesize that you describe as the most broken thing ever originates from the Korean May games, and Korean May games only which is 115 games indeed.
Just because you struggle in TvZ yourself doesn't mean you have to convince others about the way you would like to be able to interprete this graph.
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zerg is a nice place right now, but i only see it lasting another month before everything scrolls back to 50-50. ebs and flows, gents.
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On June 07 2012 20:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:Hope not, the ghost was pretty ridiculus pre-nerf. Buffing should go elsewhere.
Snipe was to good in TvZ lategame. EMP was to good in TvP lategame. I really dont understand why not revert snipe because TvZ lategame is horrible enough to justify it and TvP wont be effected.
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On June 07 2012 17:59 Serpest wrote:
That's super hilarious. The PvZ and ZvT winrates have skewed towards 60/40 - ZvT especially. It'll be interesting to see what Terrans say now that the situation from 2010 has been reversed.
The same I've said since the ghost snipe nerf. Blizzard are idiots who have no clue what they're doing. Also, expect the numbers to get even more warped.
On June 07 2012 18:27 Adonminus wrote:
It seems that all matches were getting to the 50% win rate and therefor balance. Except TvZ, because the queen range was an over buff, not only it provides really good defense which you might argue is not that imbalanced since in mid game it won't really matter, but the other bigger problem is that it's also really hard to scout since queens can now kill workers. I can feel that even as a protoss player, before I could easily sneak a probe into his main and see everything he had, but now with the queen range upgrade, I can't do that anymore, queens will simply kill my worker. This is really terrible and discourages scouting.
At least zerg don't complain anymore about having no way to scout.....
The queen buff makes a difference far longer than just the earlygame. The additional creep spread, using only queens for defense thus making zergs have more larva to drone even harder, queens being the macro tools for zerg, and also being ultralisk/brood lord healers buff the zerg the entire game with the queen buff and this mass queen build.
On June 07 2012 19:49 Mashmed wrote:
Terrans are still doing the same shit they did for months before the patch came and they expect it to be just as effective. How about some new builds aye?
Why? We can just hope for Blizzard to buff us. They've done that to protoss and zerg so far. Also historically, every time terran figures out something new Blizzard nerfs it.
Na, we're better off just waiting for Blizzard to fix the game for us.
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it's the right time to buff mech
anyway hold your hope, 1.5 is the last patch, then HOTS will arrive
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Maybe they should give queen 5 range only on creep and 3 range off-creep.
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On June 07 2012 20:51 zere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:42 mEtRoSG wrote:On June 07 2012 20:35 zere wrote:On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:which means tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now Ever! In the world! Congrats to everyone jumping on the Korean ZvT train over this samplesize of 115 games. Congrats. sample size is 1,6k games for tvz alone of which only a few have been on the new patch...do u think it will get better with a bigger amount of games played with the queen buff? as we can see in the gstl, tahts not the case if u dont like the 1,6k sampel size take the 10k smaple size of international events where tvz is 45%... or wait until teh sillieness which will be the june winrates :D Your 60-40 samplesize that you describe as the most broken thing ever originates from the Korean May games, and Korean May games only which is 115 games indeed. Just because you struggle in TvZ yourself doesn't mean you have to convince others about the way you would like to be able to interprete this graph.
I dont actually struggle vs z myself, well after the queen patch I honestly do, but before it used to be my best matchup and I'm sure this happened because of the queen buff, also I'm not a random scrub im top 100 gm on eu consistently but I get offtopic with that
I say its the most imbalanced because its worse than the 111 "disaster", and that is just observed statswise and doesnt include any own opinion, its PURE stats, the winrate is the biggest disparity in winrate graphs collected ever
as I said if u dont like the truth, which is korean lvl, look at the eu stats or wait for the joke whcih will be the june stats
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So for the first time ever Terran has the worst overall winrate of the three races.
The game must be broken.
[It's sarcasm, but all the Terran's who are performing badly on the ladder are going to use these graphs like it somehow validates their poor play]
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Zerg doing well now. Terrans just need to figure out new ways to deal with the queen buff and it'll go back to normal.
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On June 07 2012 20:53 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 07 2012 20:42 m0ck wrote:
Time for the ghost-nerf to be reversed? Hope not, the ghost was pretty ridiculus pre-nerf. Buffing should go elsewhere. Snipe was to good in TvZ lategame. EMP was to good in TvP lategame. I really dont understand why not revert snipe because TvZ lategame is horrible enough to justify it and TvP wont be effected.
Snipe was too good against massive, biological units. Nerfing it against everything made zero sense. EMP in lategame tvp was perfectly fine when compared to the damage output of a lategame protoss army.. but whatever
On June 07 2012 20:58 LimitSEA wrote:
Zerg doing well now. Terrans just need to figure out new ways to deal with the queen buff and it'll go back to normal.
most of the games in these stats are from before the queen buff...
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Vatican City State582 Posts
resolution for the graphs is kinda too low, but yeh, a 61% vs 39% TvZ win rate is daunting..
/put on my tinfoil hat and hope HoTS will fix everything
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On June 07 2012 18:01 boxturtle wrote:
My lord, those statistics are.......awful to see. Wake the heck up Blizzard.
I think the statistics are pretty reasonable considering terrans will need time to adjust to the patch change. A huge swing like this is to be expected I think.
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On June 07 2012 20:34 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:29 zefreak wrote:On June 07 2012 20:25 Evangelist wrote:On June 07 2012 20:17 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 07 2012 20:13 Tippecanoe wrote:On June 07 2012 20:09 Probe1 wrote:
Terrans are hilarious with their angst. Welcome to the sad club, we've been waiting so long. Enjoy coming up with new strategies! Terran's are consistently the only race that creates tons of unique and standard build orders. Not sure what you are implying. I want to see Terrans adapt to the game instead of creating builds that abuse the other races. And ofcourse terrans make the most strategies because it has such a good design that allows it. That doesn't mean every build out there is smart or deserves attention. Er. Surely that is adapting to the game, abusing the weaknesses of other races. Terrans do it consistantly - TvP is all about avoiding the autowin 3/3 deathball. Same in TvZ - since the ghost nerf, it's all about finding some way of dealing with the inevitable T3 deathball. Sure, Terrans can get their own deathball (the mech deathball) but it's also massively expensive and extremely difficult to replace with a number of severe weaknesses that simply don't exist in the other two deathballs because P and Z casters are ten times stronger than their Terran equivalents. Hah, since when is abusing other races not adapting to the game? Every race abuses the other, thats how they win. (responding to the guy you quoted) Making a safe build for late game is way different than making the 1-1-1 build that worked because protos was flawed. (talking about the past). That is abusing. Creating the double forge build for example doesn't abuse anything. (or you use the word abuse for everything that the other race can't do to you, in witch case you abuse the fact that the opponent can't kill you lol)
Oh come on. The 111 is one of the oldest builds in the game. As for the forge expand, it does abuse something - it abuses the fact that a zerg can't shoot range. You can't really forge expand against a 3 rax, can you. Why? Maruaders kill your arse.
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On June 07 2012 20:05 Bodzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:00 Embir wrote:On June 07 2012 19:55 Bodzilla wrote:
I stopped playing zerg after 2 years because i thought they where getting too strong.
played random for a bit, and now main terran.
Same here - except i switched immadiately to terran. Nonethless I feel TvP is much more shitty match-up, at least in lategame against Zerg i can still win - it is just very map dependent. experiment with Mech. Mech's viable. I've personally never built a maruder. i just hate them so i refuse to build them.
This . I've played bio in the past , but it's not the way of the future . The ghost nerf and protoss upgrades buff was the last straw . Bio isn't cost effective vs protoss after middle game , even with the best micro you could do you could still end up even or behind the toss . The problem really is that storm is to cost effective vs bio and collosus forces unupgraded vikings that don't mix well with the bio army other then taking out collosus . The biggest problem with bio is that it's depended on a useless medivac that it could be sniped easily with feedback and focus fire while retreating , because you can't physicaly micro both your bio and the medivacs at the same time and do well with both .
Mech is the way of the future - mixing in Mech + Air units as part of the the mech composition . Also 10 years of BW progaming has taught us how to use mech vs Protoss , the only thing you need to do is scout what your opponent's army composition is and adjust to it . Tanks , Hellions , Viking , Banshees , Ravens , Thors and BC's , and using the medivac as how it was ment to be used only as a dropship can battle what protoss has to throw effectively . Ghosts are good support units that mix -in really well with mech late game EMP + tank damage rips appart the protoss ground army .When i am fighting a protoss army with similar supply i don't feel at a disadvantage when i am using mech , unlike lategame bio .
I would much rather learn to play mech then stick with playing bio against protoss , because it has no future . From what i've seen from Blizzard in HOTS only mech gets the new stuff while bio remains the same . Knowing that i don't know why Pros still consistently use bio , then try and develop mech builds , but maybe they are afraid that Blizzard will nerf it like what it has done in the past to other terran builds . ThorZain used Thors once in TSL and Blizzard deemed it unaesthеtical and nerfed it . Ghosts have been used Blizzard nerf them . 111 had been used Blizzard can't nerf all units buffs the Immortal and protoss ground upgrades . I think it's time for a terran buff from Blizzard, and from what i think either a slight reduce in gas of the Raven or Tank or a slight reduce to HSM energy can't make it as imbalanced as a simple Queen or Upgrades buff that Zerg and Protoss got . Not to mention that the 6 range queen and immortal practually changed how most of the MUs are played .
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On June 07 2012 20:16 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 19:50 mEtRoSG wrote:On June 07 2012 19:49 Mashmed wrote:
Terrans are still doing the same shit they did for months before the patch came and they expect it to be just as effective. How about some new builds aye? u sir have obviosuly no idea what your talking about, terran has been by far the race with the largest and most frequent buildorder style changes in the sc2 history Yes, weh have seen the frequent buildorder style: "I have found a build that auto wins you by the 10 minute mark at the latest" "oh got nerfed" "No matter I found another one" "damn nerfed again" "Here have you ever tried this units? You can actually end the game at 9 Minutes without risk" "damn blizzard why is taht shit nerfed again? Terra is historically the weakest!" "Haha I just experimented with 2 old builds lately and tried a fusion, gets you a win at 10 Minutes!" "Blizz is just plain stupid, we only have a 55% winrate in korea and the are still buffing the others" Was that the kind of changes you had in mind?
What league are you? If Terran doesn't attack in some form or another at the 10-15 minute mark he is dead. And that doesn't even count Protoss 2-base allins, that's just counting a typical TvP where Protoss gets his 3rd relatively early.
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On June 07 2012 20:58 LimitSEA wrote:
Zerg doing well now. Terrans just need to figure out new ways to deal with the queen buff and it'll go back to normal.
No, we don't. Blizzard needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that the last two patches have been pointless, and awful for the game.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:05 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:05 Bodzilla wrote:On June 07 2012 20:00 Embir wrote:On June 07 2012 19:55 Bodzilla wrote:
I stopped playing zerg after 2 years because i thought they where getting too strong.
played random for a bit, and now main terran.
Same here - except i switched immadiately to terran. Nonethless I feel TvP is much more shitty match-up, at least in lategame against Zerg i can still win - it is just very map dependent. experiment with Mech. Mech's viable. I've personally never built a maruder. i just hate them so i refuse to build them. This . I've played bio in the past , but it's not the way of the future . The ghost nerf and protoss upgrades buff was the last straw . Bio isn't cost effective vs protoss after middle game , even with the best micro you could do you could still end up even or behind the toss . The problem really is that storm is to cost effective vs bio and collosus forces unupgraded vikings that don't mix well with the bio army other then taking out collosus . The biggest problem with bio is that it's depended on a useless medivac that it could be sniped easily with feedback and focus fire while retreating , because you can't physicaly micro both your bio and the medivacs at the same time and do well with both . Mech is the way of the future - mixing in Mech + Air units as part of the the mech composition . Also 10 years of BW progaming has taught us how to use mech vs Protoss , the only thing you need to do is scout what your opponent's army composition is and adjust to it . Tanks , Hellions , Viking , Banshees , Ravens , Thors and BC's , and using the medivac as how it was ment to be used only as a dropship can battle what protoss has to throw effectively . Ghosts are good support units that mix -in really well with mech late game EMP + tank damage rips appart the protoss ground army . I would much rather learn to play mech then stick with playing bio against protoss , because it has no future . From what i've seen from Blizzard in HOTS only mech gets the new stuff while bio remains the same . Knowing that i don't know why Pros still consistently use bio , then try and develop mech builds . When i am fighting a protoss army with similar supply i don't feel at a disadvantage when i am using mech , unlike lategame bio .
i kind of feel the opposite, I still prefer to use a mixture of both instead of going for pure mech, because *ahem* immortals. They hard counter tanks and Thors. Hellions? Stalkers can do the job, and what about BCs? yeh, what about them? They aren't even relevant. I am sorry.
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EPT
