EPT
TLPD Winrates May 2012 - Page 9
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Ace1123
Philippines1187 Posts
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stylz
Australia28 Posts
I wish there was a way to view the matchup statistics in time frames. With tvp being pretty balanced overall terran must be winning a bit more in the early-mid game with protoss winning more in the lategame, which i don't think is a good way to have a match up work. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:40 HwangjaeTerran wrote: The TvZ balance changes seem to follow a trend. "That thing zergs have trouble with, can they deal with it yet?" - Yes DB "Okay, buff ´em so they don't have to deal with it anymore." I don't think this one is going to be that huge though. Pretty much lol. Now that hellions have been removed from t v z you can officially say that every terran opener has been nerfed for zergs. Oh well HoTS beta starts soon, hopefully they make zerg a little more obvious so they don't have to patch the metagame every time a new build is figured out by terran players. | ||
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Eps
Canada240 Posts
With Blizzard's past history on Terran patches, No Change = Best outcome Terran can hope for. I hope there's still room for the metagame to evolve with Terran. It seems like whenever they find something decent to use, it gets nerfed to oblivion. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:45 Neurosis wrote: Pretty much lol. Now that hellions have been removed from t v z you can officially say that every terran opener has been nerfed. Oh well HoTS beta starts soon, hopefully they make zerg a little more obvious so they don't have to patch the metagame every time a new build is figured out by terran players. Well I still think hellions is the best thing terran can do unless you are allining. I mean they do suck, but they atleast slow the creep slightly. I mean there's really no other option since 2 rax is even weaker than hellions and you don't want to just let the zerg macro and creep freely. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:48 Zarahtra wrote: Well I still think hellions is the best thing terran can do unless you are allining. I mean they do suck, but they atleast slow the creep slightly. I mean there's really no other option since 2 rax is even weaker than hellions and you don't want to just let the zerg macro and creep freely. Ya but hellions can't even really slow creep spread down now because of the ranged queen attack. It seems like some koreans are trying 1 rax fe (because literally, what else is left rofl) and going blindly for banshees for 2 reasons. 1, it helps against these roach bane attacks and 2, you can kinda use the banshees for map control like hellions (denying creep tumors etc etc). | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On June 07 2012 20:17 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see Terrans adapt to the game instead of creating builds that abuse the other races. And ofcourse terrans make the most strategies because it has such a good design that allows it. That doesn't mean every build out there is smart or deserves attention. "Creating builds that abuse the other races" is the very definition of adapting. You exploit your strengths and your opponent's weaknesses, both stylistically and racially, to the greatest extent possible. | ||
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NPF
Canada1635 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:44 stylz wrote: haha i find this kinda funny that the game was pretty well balanced with even blizzard stating it explicitly before the patch. They then decide despite the matchup being balanced to buff zerg. Now TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup in the history of sc2....nice one blizzard! Wrong look under the Korea one and look at TvP for July 2011, Oct 2011, Mars 2012 are all more skewed then the stats for TvZ this month. Equally your statement is incorrect in the International winrate as well. Please don't say false statements. Yes it hurts for Terran but there have been worse pains, but if Blizzard wants to address the issue or if this keeps up for another month then maybe we can start to whine a bit more. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:46 Eps wrote: What is considered a good patch for Terrans..is when they leave them the hell alone. With Blizzard's past history on Terran patches, No Change = Best outcome Terran can hope for. I hope there's still room for the metagame to evolve with Terran. It seems like whenever they find something decent to use, it gets nerfed to oblivion. You forget the buff to Hunter Seeker Missile. :p | ||
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avc
121 Posts
Tell me, what were you saying all those months when Terran was dominating everybody? Was it all ok at that point? Were you just better players and the other races needed to learn to adapt? You need to have patience and see what happens for a couple of months after a patch. To blame 5 range queens for everything is frankly ridiculous. The patch came at the time when this new extremely strong four queen build was gaining a lot of traction. This style of play is really what's mostly responsible for the big swing. The Queen range has really got inside the head of Terran players, it's like they're automatically afraid of ever using the unit, without even seriously trying it out or attempting to find new ways of using them. Another thing which was changing over the last month or so has been the tendancy for Zerg players to do more two and three base all ins, due to the way maps like Ohana and Antiga end up being practically impossible for Zerg to secure a fourth, they started to stop trying and just geared up for pretty powerful all ins. The Queen change has made this a little more powerful purely because they can now deny conventional scouting more easily. It's a big thing for Terran players to deal with, quite a few things changed at the same time and for a race that has been so complacent with their position as the strongest for such a long time, it's going to take a decent amount of time for the players to adapt properly. You're now no longer automatically safe from every Zerg all in, you're no longer guaranteed scouting unless you use a Scan (don't forget you have Scan! the only form of scouting in the entire game that can never be denied!), you're not longer able to use minimal risk early pressure to all but kill the Zerg before the game really gets going, risk free Bunker pressure is now far less effective, you are no longer able to completely deny any scouting from the Zerg and the Zerg players now have the ability to deploy creep almost as easily as you can kill it. Many of these things were changing in the match up prior to the patch. It feels like Terran players read the Queen change and immediately decided Hellions should never ever be used ever again because they can no longer completely abuse the Zerg for minimal risk. Match ups are not black and white and there are many variances at different points in the game. Terran is by no means weak and you really shouldn't get hung up on an obsession over the perceived power of another race. Knee jerk judgements really don't achieve anything other than potentially stirring up knee jerk reactions. When Code S has more than 50% Zerg players qualified then you can really start to talk about a major swing in dominance. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45176 Posts
If not, when was the last time (as historically, they've not only been "not last", but leading for the majority of SC2)? As you can see from the graph, they've been in first or second every visible month (past ~10 months), and most of those were first places. Obviously, with the two new Zerg buffs, ZvX is going to continue to get stronger as well... but May wasn't too too bad. June so far isn't great for balance in Korea, as shown by Zerg's dominance in the GSTL. June will be Zerg's month it seems, until Protoss and Terran figure out how to solve the buffs (probably re-stabilizing in July). | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:16 dacimvrl wrote: i kind of feel the opposite, I still prefer to use a mixture of both instead of going for pure mech, because *ahem* immortals. They hard counter tanks and Thors. Hellions? Stalkers can do the job, and what about BCs? yeh, what about them? They aren't even relevant. I am sorry. In HOTS the new goliath thingy is somewhat of a supposed counter to the immortal as well as the new anti air , also EMP still works against them . They melt without the shield . Hellions are just meatshields for tanks to do damage and are good against zealot/archon protoss composition they will get even better in HOTS as meatshields. Raven's PDD makes stalkers weak , they are already weak against tanks . You build 1 - 2 Thors to tank as meatshields and to prtotect against phoenixes , while the tanks and ( hellions to the zealots) deal the damage . BC's can be really good lategame it depends on how you use them . MVP fucked up the game with them when almost all of them got stuck in a vortex . Go check out the BC in liquipedia there is nothing weak about it except that they have energy that could be feedbacked . Yamato deals 300 damage , thats a dead voidray , stalker , and a dieing archon and collosus . Thors and BC grow exponentialy more stronger when in mass and with any support unit such as Ghosts/Ravens/Tanks/hellions, so they should be the go to lategame 3+ base stalemate composition . Vikings are good against collosus/zealot/archon/voidray compositions . Banshe/raven/Medivac/hellions open up harass options that could be exploit in any given time of the game . Banshees are also pretty good as a support unit to deal damage and kill immortals . If protoss can mix any composition i don't know why terrans can't do the same to counter it . I don't include Bio , because their upgrades are different and made from different buildings , but a mixed Bio/mech could be good in some situations , especially in the early game (1/1/1) . While i said all of this i think Blizzard should buff terran slightly : -25 gas on tank , because i don't see mech working without the tank as a the core unit and it's not like protoss and zerg can't counter them ; - 50 gas on Raven or -25 energy on HSM i don't think will make the game imbalanced , but it could open up a lot more strategical options . | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 07 2012 20:25 Laurens wrote: posts like this just amuse me what new metagame do you suggest? Without buffs, the TvZ lategame is zerg-favoured, terran can't remax nearly as fast and trading with BL-infestor is ridiculously hard. So we need a metagame that allows us to win before the lategame, or enter the lategame with a solid advantage. How can we accomplish that? - Harrass the zerg: We have reapers, banshees and hellions to harrass, queens own them all even when outnumbered, and every zerg goes at least 3 queens nowadays. Not viable anymore. - Go quick third and try to get ahead in econ: Get owned by any roach pressure into third or roach/ling/bling allin (I'll refer you to GSTL if you don't believe me). Even if the zerg lets you get your econ up, you haven't pressured them at all so their econ will be ridiculous too, and you'll still be behind in the lategame. So tell us, oh wise Probe1, what metagame revolutions are you thinking of? I agree with Laurens. Please tell us what we can do? People tell that terrans have to "figure out the matchup again", but there is nothing to figure out. Two base timing pushes get stomped pretty damn hard, and the moment you place down a third CC, you are vulnerable against roach ling bling allin + you can't move out for a long time = epic zerg eco. Broodlord infestor is AMAZING. You can try ravens, but don't forget to ask the zerg to clump up his broodlords, or you will need 2 missiles to kill 1 broodlord. Ghosts are very bad against broodlords. Vikings suck against the combination of infestor + corruptor. Tell me 1 game were the terran won against broodlord infestor when both players were even in economy. I saw terrans winning it very close when they were ahead. The only thing that works okay is turtle mech: 3-3 thors, with vikings, ravens and some ghosts. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:56 avc wrote: The patch came at the time when this new extremely strong four queen build was gaining a lot of traction. This style of play is really what's mostly responsible for the big swing. Wrong, the 4 queen "build" has been around forever. Spanishiwa popularized it like when, 2010? Players have been stuck using that recently and it offers you zero map control, it was absolutely NOT powerful in any way shape or form. Now it is, but it certainly wasn't before the patch. | ||
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Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:56 avc wrote: The Terran pity party is in full swing I see. Tell me, what were you saying all those months when Terran was dominating everybody? Was it all ok at that point? Were you just better players and the other races needed to learn to adapt? You start off with this statement, but then go on to say how terran needs to suck it up because "they've had more than half of code S in the past." If you thought the game was broken or needed changing back when zerg was suffering or protoss was suffering, you should feel the same way now. Nothing at all in the past has any bearing on the current situation - you either want a fair game or you don't. This has been bubbling for a few months now, and here it is finally showing up in the Korean stats - there is something off with terran. | ||
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Eps
Canada240 Posts
On June 07 2012 21:54 ZenithM wrote: You forget the buff to Hunter Seeker Missile. :p Ah you're right on that. However I am still critical of Blizzard's approach on that change. If they had increased the range of it by +1, or lowered the energy cost to 100 and had a very high cooldown - it'd be actually useful. If I recall right, that was the same patch where Rax build time increased by 5. And Infernal PreIgnitor got beat down to half though. =l | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
Zerg queen buff was a big change to early presure builds and cheese. Changes need time, blizzard will give it that though the terran whining might win before that. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
As long as their winrates don't stay like this for an extended period of time, it's fine. Give it some time. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On June 07 2012 22:15 K3Nyy wrote: Funny how people keep whining after a buff is just implemented. Most winrates look like this when there's a significant buff or nerf. How can you expect something to be even when nothing's been figured out yet? As long as their winrates don't stay like this for an extended period of time, it's fine. Give it some time. I expect for Blizzard to not make bad changes to the game, regardless of win rates. The win rates are just an indication that the changes were bad, although I think they would have been in zergs favor queen buff or not this month. | ||
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