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On June 07 2012 22:08 Lysanias wrote:
Terran did not find new openings i'd be more intrested in the July statistics and see how it will go after some time.
Zerg queen buff was a big change to early presure builds and cheese. Changes need time, blizzard will give it that though the terran whining might win before that.
1 rax CC into double gas tech is pretty new for me. We didn't see it for a long period of time.
It's not new new, but neither is the new zergs opening right now.
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Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already.
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On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQa solid 61%-39% winrate for zvt in korea, what you have to count into that is that the buff only hit the last 10 days of may so june is gonna get even more affected by that which means tvz is the most imbalanced matchup in sc2 history right now about protosses crying about z, a 57,1% winrate in pvz doesnt seem too bad does it? internationally : tvp 49,3% - 50,7% tvz 45,1% - 54,9% zvp 52,5% - 47,5% discuss! i like tvz in korea, the queen buff was necessary in my opinion [sarcasm off]
Why did you put up all this bias analysis in the OP? Usually these threads are free from thing kind of thing, and you are baiting a balance discussion.
And the worst part of your bias analysis is that it is wrong. According to charts you're quoting from, the 61%-39% winrate in Korean ZvT is better than the 61.2%-38.8% winrate in Korean TvP that Protoss had to deal with twice (July 2011 and March 2012), and much better than the most lopsided winrate in SC2 history, where Terrans were winning 62.2% of the time vs Protoss in October 2011.
So at least read the rest of the chart before making sweeping statements. TvZ is not the most imbalanced matchup in the history of the SC2 now. Terrans dominated this game according to the chart, and this is the first month where Terrans have the lowest overall win percentage.
On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already.
It is probably the best method there is for determining balance. Horrible, but nothing better exists.
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On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already.
This being tourney wins doesn't mean a whole bunch. The problem with this, and its a problem terran users/the community refuses to look at. Is that this is a graph with a patch thrown in the middle of it.
On top of a patch being just implemented, most of the 'terran' wins or losses are from GSTL from a BO1 series.
Too many people are crying for no reason. Did anybody expect the graphs to be different?
ALSO SAMPLE SIZE OF LESS THAN 200 GAMES FOR KOREAN TVZ.....i think that needs to be re-iterated, we have alot of people who can't read graphs here
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On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already.
Right... I'd much rather determine balance based on how everyone in the gold and silver leagues are doing. The pros don't know a damn thing about this game.
In all seriousness, we just need a larger sample size. More of these + master/ GM is even better...
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On June 07 2012 17:56 mEtRoSG wrote:
about protosses crying about z, a 57,1% winrate in pvz doesnt seem too bad does it?
Nice post by the OP here lol. Quite ironic considering how you cry about terran being terribad :D
Looking at other months, this one doesn't look all that special. International is pretty balanced which is cool.
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This is the reason why Blizzard shouldn't bum rush into implementing changes that don't need to be done, hopefully it will act as a wake up call for them
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On June 07 2012 22:32 paradoxOO9 wrote:
This is the reason why Blizzard shouldn't bum rush into implementing changes that don't need to be done, hopefully it will act as a wake up call for them
You give them too much credit. Blizzard has a history of implementing bad changes and letting them stay for ages. Wow is especially notorious for this.
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Its so funny that once a buff happens to a race that for the next month and a hlaf that race wins more and everybody qqs about it. Itll just be another month then terrans will know how to approach the new queen and the win rates will even out more.
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On June 07 2012 22:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already. Right... I'd much rather determine balance based on how everyone in the gold and silver leagues are doing. The pros don't know a damn thing about this game. In all seriousness, we just need a larger sample size. More of these + master/ GM is even better...
He didn't explain himself, but your in the group that 'doesn't listen to logic' when reading graphs.
More than the just the graph has to be taken in affect. For instance, korean's TvZ has less than 150 games. Now take in affect lilke 60+ of those matches were a BO1 series.
Now i ask you, do you think determining balance off of a less than 150 game sample that is over half filled with Bo1's reasonable? the answer is no. You can not determine balance through a BO1 league, which most of these games are from KSL or GSTL.
This graph doesnt represent the latest patches changes at all. It doesn't represent balance at all (unless your looking at international)
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On June 07 2012 22:35 CGolden wrote:
Its so funny that once a buff happens to a race that for the next month and a hlaf that race wins more and everybody qqs about it. Itll just be another month then terrans will know how to approach the new queen and then Terran will be back on top.
Fixed that for you 
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On June 07 2012 22:18 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:08 Lysanias wrote:
Terran did not find new openings i'd be more intrested in the July statistics and see how it will go after some time.
Zerg queen buff was a big change to early presure builds and cheese. Changes need time, blizzard will give it that though the terran whining might win before that. 1 rax CC into double gas tech is pretty new for me. We didn't see it for a long period of time. It's not new new, but neither is the new zergs opening right now.
it has been out for 6+months and Polt use it in 99% of his TvZ since 3months at least. Just become the best opening with this stupid buff, there is nothing close to it now :'(
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On June 07 2012 22:36 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already. Right... I'd much rather determine balance based on how everyone in the gold and silver leagues are doing. The pros don't know a damn thing about this game. In all seriousness, we just need a larger sample size. More of these + master/ GM is even better... He didn't explain himself, but your in the group that 'doesn't listen to logic' when reading graphs. More than the just the graph has to be taken in affect. For instance, korean's TvZ has less than 150 games. Now take in affect lilke 60+ of those matches were a BO1 series. Now i ask you, do you think determining balance off of a less than 150 game sample that is over half filled with Bo1's reasonable? the answer is no. You can not determine balance through a BO1 league, which most of these games are from KSL or GSTL. This graph doesnt represent the latest patches changes at all. It doesn't represent balance at all (unless your looking at international)
Do you think nerfing snipe because of a sum total of 5 games, or nerfing Thors because of one game is reasonable? Blizzard does.
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On June 07 2012 22:36 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already. Right... I'd much rather determine balance based on how everyone in the gold and silver leagues are doing. The pros don't know a damn thing about this game. In all seriousness, we just need a larger sample size. More of these + master/ GM is even better... He didn't explain himself, but your in the group that 'doesn't listen to logic' when reading graphs. More than the just the graph has to be taken in affect. For instance, korean's TvZ has less than 150 games. Now take in affect lilke 60+ of those matches were a BO1 series. Now i ask you, do you think determining balance off of a less than 150 game sample that is over half filled with Bo1's reasonable? the answer is no. You can not determine balance through a BO1 league, which most of these games are from KSL or GSTL. This graph doesnt represent the latest patches changes at all. It doesn't represent balance at all (unless your looking at international)
While a portion of tournament games are indeed Bo1, 100% of ladder games are Bo1s. Also, as I explained above (and is common knowledge), using the top tier players' games as sources of balances are the way to go, as they make fewer mechanical errors that would conflict with race issues. Therefore, it's far and away better to compare games at the higher levels than games at the lower levels. The only thing I asked for was as large a sample size as possible to really make the statistics robust.
But I appreciate you accusing me of not listening to logic, especially since ***(yes, I've been talking about the international statistics in this thread)***. Your spelling was just icing on the cake.
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On June 07 2012 22:41 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:36 ohampatu wrote:On June 07 2012 22:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already. Right... I'd much rather determine balance based on how everyone in the gold and silver leagues are doing. The pros don't know a damn thing about this game. In all seriousness, we just need a larger sample size. More of these + master/ GM is even better... He didn't explain himself, but your in the group that 'doesn't listen to logic' when reading graphs. More than the just the graph has to be taken in affect. For instance, korean's TvZ has less than 150 games. Now take in affect lilke 60+ of those matches were a BO1 series. Now i ask you, do you think determining balance off of a less than 150 game sample that is over half filled with Bo1's reasonable? the answer is no. You can not determine balance through a BO1 league, which most of these games are from KSL or GSTL. This graph doesnt represent the latest patches changes at all. It doesn't represent balance at all (unless your looking at international) Do you think nerfing snipe because of a sum total of 5 games, or nerfing Thors because of one game is reasonable? Blizzard does.
Don't forget nerfing Blue flame after the slayers terrans beating idra at MLG who was playing super greedy.
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On June 07 2012 22:00 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 20:25 Laurens wrote:On June 07 2012 20:19 Probe1 wrote:
I'm implying that from what I see, things aren't nearly as bad in TvZ as things were in TvP when the 1 1 1 came out. The OP is pretty sure things will only get worse until the balance-pocalypse comes and all worthy players ascend to heaven. Yeah nah someone is going to figure out a new meta and the game will evolve and everything will be buttery. posts like this just amuse me what new metagame do you suggest? Without buffs, the TvZ lategame is zerg-favoured, terran can't remax nearly as fast and trading with BL-infestor is ridiculously hard. So we need a metagame that allows us to win before the lategame, or enter the lategame with a solid advantage. How can we accomplish that? - Harrass the zerg: We have reapers, banshees and hellions to harrass, queens own them all even when outnumbered, and every zerg goes at least 3 queens nowadays. Not viable anymore. - Go quick third and try to get ahead in econ: Get owned by any roach pressure into third or roach/ling/bling allin (I'll refer you to GSTL if you don't believe me). Even if the zerg lets you get your econ up, you haven't pressured them at all so their econ will be ridiculous too, and you'll still be behind in the lategame. So tell us, oh wise Probe1, what metagame revolutions are you thinking of? I agree with Laurens. Please tell us what we can do? People tell that terrans have to "figure out the matchup again", but there is nothing to figure out. Two base timing pushes get stomped pretty damn hard, and the moment you place down a third CC, you are vulnerable against roach ling bling allin + you can't move out for a long time = epic zerg eco. Broodlord infestor is AMAZING. You can try ravens, but don't forget to ask the zerg to clump up his broodlords, or you will need 2 missiles to kill 1 broodlord. Ghosts are very bad against broodlords. Vikings suck against the combination of infestor + corruptor. Tell me 1 game were the terran won against broodlord infestor when both players were even in economy. I saw terrans winning it very close when they were ahead. The only thing that works okay is turtle mech: 3-3 thors, with vikings, ravens and some ghosts.
i agree 100% with u guys. we have thes cool harrass units liek reaper, hellions, banshees but they just became so useless that a macro game is the only solid way to go for atm. the game should not be supposed to work like that. it's becoming boring by that. sc2 was once a game with a lot of different viable things u could do (speaking from terran pov). but now it's just any uphill battle while sitting on a timebomb in either tvz and tvp.
boring from spectator pov. frustrating from player pov. well at least we saw some good high level zvz in the gstl right?
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On June 07 2012 22:35 CGolden wrote:
Its so funny that once a buff happens to a race that for the next month and a hlaf that race wins more and everybody qqs about it. Itll just be another month then terrans will know how to approach the new queen and the win rates will even out more.
To be honest the queen buff was a unecessary kick in the nuts for us terran players. The matchup was more balanced before the patch. I do think there are plenty of ways to deal with the new queen and that the matchup is in its core not imbalanced. It's just that the patch was unecessary and pisses of a lot of players.
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Ya!!! Go Zerg! For the Swarm!
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On June 07 2012 22:44 benthekid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 22:41 Dalavita wrote:On June 07 2012 22:36 ohampatu wrote:On June 07 2012 22:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 22:20 Celadan wrote:
Guys, this is stats for tourney wins, HORRIBLE for determining balance so quit whining already. Right... I'd much rather determine balance based on how everyone in the gold and silver leagues are doing. The pros don't know a damn thing about this game. In all seriousness, we just need a larger sample size. More of these + master/ GM is even better... He didn't explain himself, but your in the group that 'doesn't listen to logic' when reading graphs. More than the just the graph has to be taken in affect. For instance, korean's TvZ has less than 150 games. Now take in affect lilke 60+ of those matches were a BO1 series. Now i ask you, do you think determining balance off of a less than 150 game sample that is over half filled with Bo1's reasonable? the answer is no. You can not determine balance through a BO1 league, which most of these games are from KSL or GSTL. This graph doesnt represent the latest patches changes at all. It doesn't represent balance at all (unless your looking at international) Do you think nerfing snipe because of a sum total of 5 games, or nerfing Thors because of one game is reasonable? Blizzard does. Don't forget nerfing Blue flame after the slayers terrans beating idra at MLG who was playing super greedy.
Blue flame was actually really f*cking strong before the nerf
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On June 07 2012 20:58 Witten wrote:
So for the first time ever Terran has the worst overall winrate of the three races.
The game must be broken.
[It's sarcasm, but all the Terran's who are performing badly on the ladder are going to use these graphs like it somehow validates their poor play]
Yeah, it's not like Terran is doing bad on ladder either. I mean the highest Terran rank on KR ladder is rank 10, couple weeks ago the highest rank was rank 20, so they're getting better.
Terran is so whiny nowaday.
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EPT
