|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 13:16 poeticEnnui wrote:
I just saw CatZ's analysis of the "Magic Scan."
Consensus says that it's impossible, but we all know how reliable consensus is -- so howabout we try to empirically verify the truth of it? So: let's load up a game vs. AI and try to recreate a "Magic Scan." If we can reproduce it without hacks, we can throw this evidence out. If not, it's still on the table.
I didn't read every page of the thread, but this seems to be in the vein of what Nerchio tried to do. Let's follow his example -- the abundance of induction-based and lack of logic-based ethics in this debate is disturbing.
There is no doubt that it is theoretically possible to pull off. It is just stupid and much harder than necessary. No one moves their camera towards their opponents army, stops 0.1s short of reaching it, goes to minimap to scan, then continues moving the last 0.1s to their army. Even if you could you wouldn't. And even if some people did do that, if you look in spades' ladder replay pack we see that he never does it except for in the show match.
No it's not 100% conclusive, but at least 99% if we are kind.
In addition the scv scout of base without looking at all is a 1 in 5000 mistake. It might happen if you are drunk and distracted trying to change music at the same time on ladder. But in a showmatch where you play at least somewhat seriously it is 1 in 5000. In fact I suspect it is a first for a GM level player to do that in a serious game.
Add in all the suspicious army movements. Great scans. Etc. Some may be chalked up to luck, Spades having studied lucifron and playing differently in showmatch vs ladder, but overall we are lead to conclude that Spades is almost certainly hacking.
If you still have doubts, or need to eradicate that 0.001% doubt, then you can compare his ladder games to his show match. How often does spades on average see a full screen of fog of war in ladder games compared to the show match? How many instances of the magic scan can you find in the ladder games? What is his average reaction time to units entering his vision on ladder vs in showmatch? How often does he respond with army to unknown threat before scanning to confirm what the threat is? Personally I don't feel this necessary, but if a million lives depending on the outcome it is fairly easy, but tedious to determine with greater certainty whether he hacked.
|
spades, for a large sum of money
i can give you a new face, new identity, new home, new everything
and you can start your sc2 career from scratch
pm me if interested
|
On June 05 2012 13:24 algorithm0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:22 Dante_A_ wrote:On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote:
It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this. It really confuses me how someone involved enough in SC2 to have an ID on TeamLiquid wouldn't see why the community would have a stake in preventing cheaters. Upholding the integrety of competition is an important element for spectators, which we all are. We are only vilifying someone who does not have the opportunity to defend themselves in a free space. Further, we have no jurisdiction to apply punishment and our speculation and vilification are punishment themselves.
You just made the case for why this is a valid pursuit - this vilification is precisely the punishment that should accompany cheating. It is far more improtant that Blizzard removing the single game liscense for a cheating account.
Spades has the opportunity to defend himself, and has actively made several posts here. The forum that the "prosecution" has taken, going to a live stream, is also open to Spades. He even has gamers commenting on his side too, such as cArn, so its not as if this is totally biased.
The community has no police - it polices itself through the consensus of the masses. This is the process of justice in the absence of other institutions.
|
7 games of very, VERY suspicious moves from a low-tier NA pro with a history of hacking who all of a sudden goes 3-4 against a top EU pro.
This is all that's needed. He hacks. He should be shunned. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Really though, if the only piece of evidence in existence was the siege-tanks on Cloud Kingdom it would be enough to convince me.
|
On June 05 2012 13:27 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:25 algorithm0r wrote:On June 05 2012 13:23 Gamegene wrote:On June 05 2012 13:23 algorithm0r wrote:On June 05 2012 13:21 zev318 wrote:On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote:
It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations.
If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues.
There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
GL HF Spades. cause blizzard acts so fast at banning bots/hackers. It is Blizzards business only, not ours. If they want to leave them on there forever they can. yah cuz this has nothing to do with tournaments or prize moneyz. just ladder points rite? Do you work for a tournament? If so then please apply what ever measures you need to stop hacking in your tournament. If not then you have no business determining who is a cheater or not. yeah we shouldn't give him any negative attention or backlash. otherwise he might feel the repercussions of cheating. that wouldn't be nice.
we also might discourage other hackers from continuing their dirty work, and that would be wrong because all gam- ESPORTS should have malicious cheaters right?
|
On June 05 2012 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:14 Dosey wrote:On June 05 2012 13:11 soon.Cloak wrote:
Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right.
But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army.
What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial. Anything short of a computer scan that is proven to detect all hacks could be considered circumstantial. I think the camera lock and these "magic scans" are rather conclusive though. I would tend to agree, but I don't know anything about the replay being not perfectly in sync. That's also why I think "Innocent until proven guilty" is being misused, and should not be taken literally. Even in court, DNA evidence is taken, because it's 99.9999% good. What about the .0001%? Nobody cares- "proven" just means beyond a reasonable doubt. Same thing here. Nobody can literally prove he cheated, but to demand that is ridiculous.
Extraordinary claims such as this require extraordinary evidence. That of which is lacking atm.
|
Has spades said anything after Catz streamed the replays????Sorry just so many pages to go through.
|
On June 05 2012 13:24 algorithm0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:22 Dante_A_ wrote:On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote:
It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this. It really confuses me how someone involved enough in SC2 to have an ID on TeamLiquid wouldn't see why the community would have a stake in preventing cheaters. Upholding the integrety of competition is an important element for spectators, which we all are. We are only vilifying someone who does not have the opportunity to defend themselves in a free space. Further, we have no jurisdiction to apply punishment and our speculation and vilification are punishment themselves.
This is a good point and after watching and reading everything, I simply don't think we have enough justification to say definitively that he MAP HACKS.
He openly gave 100 of his most recent replays.
I think, however, it is MUCH more likely he is stream cheating versus hacking. Given the evidence that he was known to have stream cheated in previous show matches, that would certainly strengthen the case he would do it again. However, up until this point, there is no justifiable reason to believe he map hacks.
The "magic" scans that were mentioned may be possible. When Catz opened a previous replay of Spades, from Spades view you could see how he casts his scans at the very corner of his vision, which after they are made, would appear to be beyond his vision. In this instance, I felt Catz examination actually weakened the case of Spades hacking.
In the end, I think we will find that this was stream cheating and not hacking. Otherwise I doubt he would be so keen on granting his most recent 100 replays.
I think another important question for all of us:
How quick are we to jump on the bandwagon to say that Spades hacks? All it took was 1 unknown poster with 1 post to create all of this commotion. While I do believe that Spades most likely stream cheated, it's not sufficient to say he map hacked. In any case, he is "innocent" until proven guilty and I have seen and read every bit of evidence so far. I'd also like to think I'm objective and a high level Terran as a Rank 1 Master player. I hope this works out for the whole community and we learn from this...
|
On June 05 2012 13:24 DjDickGrayson wrote:
Stream Arrest! And request to keep thread open!!
Why don't we watch his streamed games and see if he plays the same then compare results to the accused hacked matches. I also, and I'm sure the pro's feel the same way, encourage anyone that might have a suspicious replay to come forward. Livelihood's are at stake here and we must reach a conclusion quickly, we don't want a smear/bullying campaign on our hands.
We have been watching his replays and stream games, and he ventures into the fog of war like every normal player. In his show match games he avoids the fog like the plague.
|
Again, I really hope they stream Spades in MLG, I wanna see his crazy gameplay and gaming sense.
|
Ok. I just got an idea. What if we give a pro a smurf hacking account and get him to hack and document it on a video. Then we analyze all the data. A hobbit progamer most brave.
|
On June 05 2012 13:28 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:16 poeticEnnui wrote:
I just saw CatZ's analysis of the "Magic Scan."
Consensus says that it's impossible, but we all know how reliable consensus is -- so howabout we try to empirically verify the truth of it? So: let's load up a game vs. AI and try to recreate a "Magic Scan." If we can reproduce it without hacks, we can throw this evidence out. If not, it's still on the table.
I didn't read every page of the thread, but this seems to be in the vein of what Nerchio tried to do. Let's follow his example -- the abundance of induction-based and lack of logic-based ethics in this debate is disturbing. There is no doubt that it is theoretically possible to pull off. It is just stupid and much harder than necessary. No one moves their camera towards their opponents army, stops 0.1s short of reaching it, goes to minimap to scan, then continues moving the last 0.1s to their army. Even if you could you wouldn't. And even if some people did do that, if you look in spades' ladder replay pack we see that he never does it except for in the show match. No it's not 100% conclusive, but at least 99% if we are kind. In addition the scv scout of base without looking at all is a 1 in 5000 mistake. It might happen if you are drunk and distracted trying to change music at the same time on ladder. But in a showmatch where you play at least somewhat seriously it is 1 in 5000. In fact I suspect it is a first for a GM level player to do that in a serious game. Add in all the suspicious army movements. Great scans. Etc. Some may be chalked up to luck, Spades having studied lucifron and playing differently in showmatch vs ladder, but overall we are lead to conclude that Spades is almost certainly hacking. If you still have doubts, or need to eradicate that 0.001% doubt, then you can compare his ladder games to his show match. How often does spades on average see a full screen of fog of war in ladder games compared to the show match? How many instances of the magic scan can you find in the ladder games? What is his average reaction time to units entering his vision on ladder vs in showmatch? How often does he respond with army to unknown threat before scanning to confirm what the threat is? Personally I don't feel this necessary, but if a million lives depending on the outcome it is fairly easy, but tedious to determine with greater certainty whether he hacked.
You can recreate the "magic" scan without using minimap, its just how replays watch your camera and the way the scan works.
|
On June 05 2012 13:24 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:23 TheWorldToCome wrote:
If the game vs Lucifron on Entombed Valley doesn't convince you, I dunno what will.
He scouts with his scv around the base without at all looking at the base he is scouting. He sieges at a perfect timing/position. lol He had 0 map vision and he siege all the tanks at the edge of his natural. He is hacking 100%.
I hope you're being sarcastic, but in the event you're not, I'll explain this again.
He saw his natural being scanned, he had control of watch tower, therefore the most logical conclusion is that he's going to be attacked from the side. Sure... the attack could have went the other way, but it's not likely because the attack path chosen was the shortest. Instinctively, most players would have done the same thing and sieged up where he did. This was not the point Catz et al were trying to make. The suspicion comes from stimming maris forward to snipe vikings, but randomly moves back from fear of being killed by siege tank fire while having no idea of what was behind the fog of war.
|
On June 05 2012 13:29 Darkman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:On June 05 2012 13:14 Dosey wrote:On June 05 2012 13:11 soon.Cloak wrote:
Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right.
But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army.
What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial. Anything short of a computer scan that is proven to detect all hacks could be considered circumstantial. I think the camera lock and these "magic scans" are rather conclusive though. I would tend to agree, but I don't know anything about the replay being not perfectly in sync. That's also why I think "Innocent until proven guilty" is being misused, and should not be taken literally. Even in court, DNA evidence is taken, because it's 99.9999% good. What about the .0001%? Nobody cares- "proven" just means beyond a reasonable doubt. Same thing here. Nobody can literally prove he cheated, but to demand that is ridiculous. Extraordinary claims such as this require extraordinary evidence. That of which is lacking atm.
The mistake you are making is that this isn't an extraordinary claim. Spades has a history of hacking (BW for instance).
Accusing White-ra of hacking would be an extraordinary claim.
|
On June 05 2012 13:29 TommyP wrote:
Has spades said anything after Catz streamed the replays????Sorry just so many pages to go through.
He's just crying at his career and how's it's ended now.
|
The weird part about the magic scan is this:
If his camera was positioned on Lucifron's army, why wasn't it screen blocked or w/e on Spades' army the entire rather than moving towards the magic scan? Surely he only has 2 hands. If he scanned, then the roll to Lucifron's army shouldn't have been so smooth.
Like, I mostly agree with them about the entire thing; it's weird how he's not playing how he's not usually playing on stream, without looking through the fog of war for rallies and shit. However, the magic scan part makes me think that his hotkey for scanning is different than 'c' rather than just cheating. This also leads me to believe his entire hotkey setup is completely different from what we normally expect. With that in mind, the magic scan makes it possible, so he can hotkey extremely fast and use his hands on his arrow keys to move the screen withe the mouse moving towards the minimap.
I dunno, the magic scan was kind of bugging me, I don't think that lessens his guiltiness at all unless someone can expand on how having a different hotkey layout could change his case at all. I was just wondering how he did it is all... that's my input >_>
|
On June 05 2012 13:29 Darkman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:25 soon.Cloak wrote:On June 05 2012 13:14 Dosey wrote:On June 05 2012 13:11 soon.Cloak wrote:
Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right.
But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army.
What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial. Anything short of a computer scan that is proven to detect all hacks could be considered circumstantial. I think the camera lock and these "magic scans" are rather conclusive though. I would tend to agree, but I don't know anything about the replay being not perfectly in sync. That's also why I think "Innocent until proven guilty" is being misused, and should not be taken literally. Even in court, DNA evidence is taken, because it's 99.9999% good. What about the .0001%? Nobody cares- "proven" just means beyond a reasonable doubt. Same thing here. Nobody can literally prove he cheated, but to demand that is ridiculous. Extraordinary claims such as this require extraordinary evidence. That of which is lacking atm.
Accusing Spades, particularly with iNcontroL's and others comments about previous suspicions of SC2 maphacking, ON TOP OF Spades's record of hacking in Broodwar make this not an extraordinary claim.
|
On June 05 2012 13:26 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote:
It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations.
If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues.
There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
GL HF Spades. I strongly disagree. We, the community, have a responsibility to police ourselves and weed out the bad apples. We do not and should not delegate this responsibility to anyone. If anything, Blizzard should be helping us.
This is not policing. This is mob justice. For a "crime" which is at best a violation of ToS of some company or the rules of engagement of some private Tournament.
|
What's lucifron's opinion on this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://s1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff496/bukkakeparty/?action=view¤t=hitlercatz.jpg)
