07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
This is a good point and after watching and reading everything, I simply don't think we have enough justification to say definitively that he MAP HACKS.
He openly gave 100 of his most recent replays.
I think, however, it is MUCH more likely he is stream cheating versus hacking. Given the evidence that he was known to have stream cheated in previous show matches, that would certainly strengthen the case he would do it again. However, up until this point, there is no justifiable reason to believe he map hacks.
The "magic" scans that were mentioned may be possible. When Catz opened a previous replay of Spades, from Spades view you could see how he casts his scans at the very corner of his vision, which after they are made, would appear to be beyond his vision. In this instance, I felt Catz examination actually weakened the case of Spades hacking.
In the end, I think we will find that this was stream cheating and not hacking. Otherwise I doubt he would be so keen on granting his most recent 100 replays.
I think another important question for all of us: How quick are we to jump on the bandwagon to say that Spades hacks? All it took was 1 unknown poster with 1 post to create all of this commotion. While I do believe that Spades most likely stream cheated, it's not sufficient to say he map hacked. In any case, he is "innocent" until proven guilty and I have seen and read every bit of evidence so far. I'd also like to think I'm objective and a high level Terran as a Rank 1 Master player. I hope this works out for the whole community and we learn from this...
On June 05 2012 13:20 sureup wrote: I tested the magic scan, and yes you cannot see the center!
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
However, you really cannot argue anything about army movements, 100% safe openings, fog locks, viking position, tank position, when he drops, etc etc.. the list goes on and anyone in GM, even high masters, terran or not, can see that the movements he takes are such blatant mirrors of his opponent that something is not right.
The moment "coincience" happens that much in something like a TvT and that many times it's clear to me that something is not right. Sorry Spades, but you don't just magically move and predict where everything is every game in a showmatch only to lose games when you're not focused on a different part of harass or your base.
This was my exact point when you watched Spade's other replays. Catz dismissed this fact, but you can indeed do this "magic" scan, which invalidates this "evidence" against Spades.
There was other "fishy" things, but this was CatZ center argument, so yeah he lost a lot of points there lolz.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
It wasn't in the 2011 rules. MLG always allowed you to view replays. You can see it in broadcasts as well that players would view replays before starting the next game in the series.
The issue was that Naniwa was viewing a replay of a game which was abandoned and to be replayed on a same map. Even then, there were no rules though.
Indeed, I was mostly making a point in that people jump to conclusions without even researching what they are saying and then things escalated to levels that are difficult to go down from.
The Naniwa thing was one of those things, people started calling him names and stuff for doing something that was not even against the rules, but because someone said it was everyone jumped on him for it.
Let's hope this doesn't happen here, where everyone starts following Catz opinion instead of forming their own and start testing stuff to see if they are possible or not.
On June 05 2012 13:11 soon.Cloak wrote: Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right. But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army. What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial.
Anything short of a computer scan that is proven to detect all hacks could be considered circumstantial.
I think the camera lock and these "magic scans" are rather conclusive though.
I would tend to agree, but I don't know anything about the replay being not perfectly in sync.
That's also why I think "Innocent until proven guilty" is being misused, and should not be taken literally. Even in court, DNA evidence is taken, because it's 99.9999% good. What about the .0001%? Nobody cares- "proven" just means beyond a reasonable doubt.
Same thing here. Nobody can literally prove he cheated, but to demand that is ridiculous.
Extraordinary claims such as this require extraordinary evidence. That of which is lacking atm.
So that's one side. Others may argue. My point is that literally getting proof is impossible, and shouldn't be asked for.
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I never regarded the way the scans showed up in the replays to be as fishy as the other stuff.
Hey, what if someone went into the replays and figured out his screen hotkeys, unit hotkeys, mouse scroll speed and everything and reverse engineered where his cursor had to be at all times
The true verification is from his released replays (group analysis is ongoing right now) compared to the very fishy replays. Is this style of minimap usage a common thing for him? Does his blindly move his siege tanks frequently on hunches and is this sometimes a wrong guess (i.e. the recently released replays either show or do not show acting on hunches for positioning). How does the camera movement compare in the released replays?
Still innocent until proven guilty in my mind. This anonymous mud flinger speaking as an authority on Spades' brood war community and speaking "we" as a community bothers me.
but we must stop at any cost people from maphacking at pro/semi-pro levels.
No, we appreciate good research and take maphacking serious, BUT we identify as a community as our gamer tags with (sometimes) our real names behind them.
Making this account on May 29th, 2012 to bring your deeply troubling charges against Spades on June 5th is not a "we" as a community (unless you were identifying with the Anonymous hacking organization which may pride itself on a myriad of unknown users, for a comparison). Spades cannot face his accuser for his accuser hides.
Yes actually, people have already checked and compared his released replay pack vs the suspect games and confirmed oddities in mechanical execution. Do some research of your own before you come in here with bolded text trying to be a grand crusader.
Mihri's statement that Spades stream cheated in competition against Gatored should be given more attention - this is a former teammate accusing Spades of openly cheating in SC2. This is after his history of hacking in Broodwar, i.e. once he was already on his second chance. I'm not sure why that didn't get any attention
On June 05 2012 13:16 poeticEnnui wrote: I just saw CatZ's analysis of the "Magic Scan."
Consensus says that it's impossible, but we all know how reliable consensus is -- so howabout we try to empirically verify the truth of it? So: let's load up a game vs. AI and try to recreate a "Magic Scan." If we can reproduce it without hacks, we can throw this evidence out. If not, it's still on the table.
I didn't read every page of the thread, but this seems to be in the vein of what Nerchio tried to do. Let's follow his example -- the abundance of induction-based and lack of logic-based ethics in this debate is disturbing.
I'm thinking about doing it myself, but the question is also why? I play terran, over 2500 games and never in my life have I scanned without a reason for scanning. Following that, I have to think about scanning before I scan. And following that, and perhaps this is a stretch, but I have never scrolled my screen in a direction away from the minimap if I plan to use a minimap scan.
His defense (or at least one of them)was that he was suffering mouse problems, in which case, if we were to believe that, there wouldn't be a reason to test it. Even if no one can produce a magic scan, surely someone with a malfunctioning mouse can.
Someone people are also claiming the possibility of a 4:3 resolution. Possible, but 1) i'd like to see him confirm if he is using such a resolution, and then 2) someone with a similar resolution can try to produce it (although this has the same faults as the malfunction mouse argument).
I do have a malfunctioning mouse. If it stops working while scrolling it continues to scroll until the problem is fixed. He would have to be so lucky if his mouse was perfect still when it happens every time.
I don't know if anyone is still looking at this point, but the sharp camera jump in the antiga shipyard game (after the 11:02-11:10 camera pause) that Illusion pointed out could maybe be explained by hitting spacebar "jump to last alert" since it centred on a mule just after it expired. I tested in a replay and jumping to an alert gives a really fast jarring jump, without centering on the CC.
I know this wasn't a big piece of evidence, but I figure it can answer one of the little questions.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
This is the strongest evidence to prove Spades is a hacker. This is what everyone should be talking about.
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
However, you really cannot argue anything about army movements, 100% safe openings, fog locks, viking position, tank position, when he drops, etc etc.. the list goes on and anyone in GM, even high masters, terran or not, can see that the movements he takes are such blatant mirrors of his opponent that something is not right.
The moment "coincience" happens that much in something like a TvT and that many times it's clear to me that something is not right. Sorry Spades, but you don't just magically move and predict where everything is every game in a showmatch only to lose games when you're not focused on a different part of harass or your base.
This was my exact point when you watched Spade's other replays. Catz dismissed this fact, but you can indeed do this "magic" scan, which invalidates this "evidence" against Spades.
There was other "fishy" things, but this was CatZ center argument, so yeah he lost a lot of points there lolz.
I dont know about that, I mean it can happen but how often does that really happen? And why doesnt it happen in his ladder replay pack? And why doesnt he look where he just scanned whenever that happens? Its not like he scans to give his tanks vision then goes somewhere else to macro and make a CC, he scans the edge of the map then sits there looking at his army and not the location scanned.
On June 05 2012 13:32 Scisyhp wrote: What people need to remember is that if you're going to to a main map scan, you probably won't do it on the very very exact edge, because that makes it harder to see exactly where you are looking. Instead (and Spades demonstrated this in the VOD Catz showed) you scroll a little bit beyond, and then click in the area you want, that isn't directly on the edge. This makes sure your scan isn't wasted, and is where you want to scan. I highly doubt he was scanning on the very periphery of his screen.
In the snippet from Spades' stream which Catz 'analysed', Spades did just that, he scanned on the very periphery of his screen against the protoss opponent.
No, he scanned maybe a half an inch away from the periphery against his protoss opponent. That makes a big difference.
Actually, this is incorrect. Spades, from the replay he granted and that which was watched on Catz stream, actually did just this.
On June 05 2012 12:39 shivver wrote: this is so much fuking bs.. especially catz
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you
LOOOL................... hes GM no?
im mid master and when i scout with a worker i always check whats bulding hes making.. everyone do the same.
On June 05 2012 13:35 Dante_A_ wrote: Mihri's statement that Spades stream cheated in competition against Gatored should be given more attention - this is a former teammate accusing Spades of openly cheating in SC2. This is after his history of hacking in Broodwar, i.e. once he was already on his second chance. I'm not sure why that didn't get any attention
On June 05 2012 13:34 zmansman17 wrote: This is a good point and after watching and reading everything, I simply don't think we have enough justification to say definitively that he MAP HACKS.
He openly gave 100 of his most recent replays.
I think, however, it is MUCH more likely he is stream cheating versus hacking. Given the evidence that he was known to have stream cheated in previous show matches, that would certainly strengthen the case he would do it again. However, up until this point, there is no justifiable reason to believe he map hacks.
The "magic" scans that were mentioned may be possible. When Catz opened a previous replay of Spades, from Spades view you could see how he casts his scans at the very corner of his vision, which after they are made, would appear to be beyond his vision. In this instance, I felt Catz examination actually weakened the case of Spades hacking.
In the end, I think we will find that this was stream cheating and not hacking. Otherwise I doubt he would be so keen on granting his most recent 100 replays.
I think another important question for all of us: How quick are we to jump on the bandwagon to say that Spades hacks? All it took was 1 unknown poster with 1 post to create all of this commotion. While I do believe that Spades most likely stream cheated, it's not sufficient to say he map hacked. In any case, he is "innocent" until proven guilty and I have seen and read every bit of evidence so far. I'd also like to think I'm objective and a high level Terran as a Rank 1 Master player. I hope this works out for the whole community and we learn from this...
I was thinking this earlier. Just because his latest replays are clean does not mean he was not stream cheating. Very good point.
On June 05 2012 13:35 Dante_A_ wrote: Mihri's statement that Spades stream cheated in competition against Gatored should be given more attention - this is a former teammate accusing Spades of openly cheating in SC2. This is after his history of hacking in Broodwar, i.e. once he was already on his second chance. I'm not sure why that didn't get any attention
On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote: *REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
EPT
