07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:20 sureup wrote: I tested the magic scan, and yes you cannot see the center!
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
However, you really cannot argue anything about army movements, 100% safe openings, fog locks, viking position, tank position, when he drops, etc etc.. the list goes on and anyone in GM, even high masters, terran or not, can see that the movements he takes are such blatant mirrors of his opponent that something is not right.
The moment "coincience" happens that much in something like a TvT and that many times it's clear to me that something is not right. Sorry Spades, but you don't just magically move and predict where everything is every game in a showmatch only to lose games when you're not focused on a different part of harass or your base.
This was my exact point when you watched Spade's other replays. Catz dismissed this fact, but you can indeed do this "magic" scan, which invalidates this "evidence" against Spades.
There was other "fishy" things, but this was CatZ center argument, so yeah he lost a lot of points there lolz.
To be honest, the other stuff is much more serious to players who actually know what is going on in a game. His decisions literally just counter anything you've learned getting to that high of a skill level. They're very inconsistent with his normal play. Because of this, I find it to be the most compelling part of the argument. It's really just impossible to come up with any explination for all the things that happened. I mean, can you REALLY say that the army movements on Tal Darim made ANY sense at all? Please... a 70%, even a 50% w/r GM terran would NEVER EVER, EVER do those actions. Ever. A few units? Sure. 10 tanks crawled + vikings? ........... --'
edit: to the people who are commenting about the scan thing below me. If you're looking at the replay and hes scrolling up and then jerks back down/stops scrolling up for a second this suggests high APM and a "spammed" click for the scan. Sometimes it's below the area where it goes on the next screen sometimes it is in view like in his VODS. In the game VS the protoss they showed his camera was tilted and had 40% vision on the left open for the click = full scan in view. Here he barley had view of the army on the top left of his screen. So I find those magic scans on Antiga to be 100% safe/not suspicious.
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
However, you really cannot argue anything about army movements, 100% safe openings, fog locks, viking position, tank position, when he drops, etc etc.. the list goes on and anyone in GM, even high masters, terran or not, can see that the movements he takes are such blatant mirrors of his opponent that something is not right.
The moment "coincience" happens that much in something like a TvT and that many times it's clear to me that something is not right. Sorry Spades, but you don't just magically move and predict where everything is every game in a showmatch only to lose games when you're not focused on a different part of harass or your base.
This was my exact point when you watched Spade's other replays. Catz dismissed this fact, but you can indeed do this "magic" scan, which invalidates this "evidence" against Spades.
There was other "fishy" things, but this was CatZ center argument, so yeah he lost a lot of points there lolz.
I dont know about that, I mean it can happen but how often does that really happen? And why doesnt it happen in his ladder replay pack? And why doesnt he look where he just scanned whenever that happens? Its not like he scans to give his tanks vision then goes somewhere else to macro and make a CC, he scans the edge of the map then sits there looking at his army and not the location scanned.
At this point, I would strongly believe that Spades at the very least stream cheated during this one event, but beyond that I don't think we can draw conclusions.
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
I do not think a person could be more wrong. This community is built upon love of the game of Starcraft and if people cheat, then they are disrespecting the game and the fans. So it is slap in the face of the community. We could not be have more stake in this.
Maphacking isn't just a "crime" of an insecure person, it is cheating. The same as doping in cycling or steroid use in baseball. It should be punished very harshly, because it ruins the integrity of the game and thus ruins the game we love.
All that said, I checked out the entire game on TDA, and honestly saw nothing really fishy. A lot of the claims the OP makes are flat out false. For instance at 21:10 Spades doesn't move anything toward his main until a single Medivac is actually within his in his view on the minimap so he easy could have seen it. At 24:30 he sees the scan from Lucifron and then moves his forces down as he is being attacked. Furthermore most is forces were never sieged up so he didn't unsiege anything there to respond to the attack on the third.
The most fishy thing I saw was the Hellion movement at 16:30. But with all that said, I don't play Terran, so maybe these movements are totally inconsistent with standard play. All in all, I think that if the OP believes that TDA is the best evidence, that Spades is doing nothing wrong after I reviewed the replay.
To clarify about these "magic scans" -- the ones made with the center off-screen (and where use of the minimap doesn't seem viable), what does that indicate? I'm assuming it means his cursor isn't confined to the normal game as he's playing it, possibly involved in his hack software, but my understanding is vague.
Yup pretty sure Spades career is down the drain now. The " magic scan " ,sending your scv and not scouting the enemy tech with your scv is already pretty telling he was hacking. No doubt the part where he siege all his tanks at the edge of his natutal with 0 map vision.( Why the heck would you siege your all your tanks at the edge of your natural WTF). I guess he is really " lucky " encountering Lucifer army at the side at Entombed Valley. Spades was hacking.
On June 05 2012 13:34 zmansman17 wrote: This is a good point and after watching and reading everything, I simply don't think we have enough justification to say definitively that he MAP HACKS.
He openly gave 100 of his most recent replays.
I think, however, it is MUCH more likely he is stream cheating versus hacking. Given the evidence that he was known to have stream cheated in previous show matches, that would certainly strengthen the case he would do it again. However, up until this point, there is no justifiable reason to believe he map hacks.
The "magic" scans that were mentioned may be possible. When Catz opened a previous replay of Spades, from Spades view you could see how he casts his scans at the very corner of his vision, which after they are made, would appear to be beyond his vision. In this instance, I felt Catz examination actually weakened the case of Spades hacking.
In the end, I think we will find that this was stream cheating and not hacking. Otherwise I doubt he would be so keen on granting his most recent 100 replays.
I think another important question for all of us: How quick are we to jump on the bandwagon to say that Spades hacks? All it took was 1 unknown poster with 1 post to create all of this commotion. While I do believe that Spades most likely stream cheated, it's not sufficient to say he map hacked. In any case, he is "innocent" until proven guilty and I have seen and read every bit of evidence so far. I'd also like to think I'm objective and a high level Terran as a Rank 1 Master player. I hope this works out for the whole community and we learn from this...
If you thought a little bit, you'd realize this is impossible. His reaction times were too quick for him to be switching back and forth between a stream and a game (think of the entombed game and the stimmed marines with the sieged tanks). He is a maphacker..
This was posted on Reddit from one of the websites that developed the hack:
"Camera Lock: Lock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it."
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
I posted this a few pages back, and I'm happy to see a good player echo my thoughts. If he indeed didn't watch the fog of war a single time over 7 games (and no good explanation pops up), I'd say it's well beyond reasonable doubt.
Well, I'm betting the OP is happy about what has happened. I really think we should be asking who the OP is and what vested interest he has in this outcome.
While I believe that Spades probably stream cheated, I don't think we can draw any more conclusions.
Sometimes you just know what they other guy is going to do. I've played a terran that proxy rack all ins me EVERY game so I use my scouting overlords in a way I usually don't and find them. When you play at the very top you only verse the same opponents repeatedly and pretty much figure out their playstyle, their bad habits. Tons of players use the same strategy like two port and I just blind counter it with spores... vVvRUFF does multiple 1 base aggression builds EVERY single game. I'm not going to watch these replays because honestly, only a really good terran player could see and think the way Spades thought.. Maybe he ran his army around indecisively because he had sense that a drop was incoming i don't know. The series was 4 - 3? its a good amount of games to figure out how your opponent thinks and plays.
All i have to say is, i've been accused of map hacking AND I DONT so whoever is throwing accusations out there better have great evidence backing it up
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
When Europe wakes up and reads the rest of this thread, we'll have more game ending posts like this start to appear. Merz has spoken.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
I posted this a few pages back, and I'm happy to see a good player echo my thoughts. If he indeed didn't watch the fog of war a single time over 7 games (and no good explanation pops up), I'd say it's well beyond reasonable doubt.
I agree with all of this and I think this is the strongest evidence that he Stream cheats (as his former owner has even claimed he has done BEFORE). However, beyond stream sniping it;s hard to say. Maybe, maybe not.
On June 05 2012 13:33 dignitas.merz wrote: IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
I posted this a few pages back, and I'm happy to see a good player echo my thoughts. If he indeed didn't watch the fog of war a single time over 7 games (and no good explanation pops up), I'd say it's well beyond reasonable doubt.
Because nobody except those who play this game at a relatively high level actually realize that this is huge.
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
The OP of the video did this while stationary on his own screen. Try scrolling up and scanning the edge while doing so, like Spades did. Regardless, the fact remains that Spades screen locked as he was scrolling into the fog of war and had a perfect scan on the enemy army while his screen was locked at the edge. He doesn't do this in his replays provided or his VODs, and neither do pros...
EPT
