07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:20 sureup wrote: I tested the magic scan, and yes you cannot see the center!
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
However, you really cannot argue anything about army movements, 100% safe openings, fog locks, viking position, tank position, when he drops, etc etc.. the list goes on and anyone in GM, even high masters, terran or not, can see that the movements he takes are such blatant mirrors of his opponent that something is not right.
The moment "coincience" happens that much in something like a TvT and that many times it's clear to me that something is not right. Sorry Spades, but you don't just magically move and predict where everything is every game in a showmatch only to lose games when you're not focused on a different part of harass or your base.
It wasn't in the 2011 rules. MLG always allowed you to view replays. You can see it in broadcasts as well that players would view replays before starting the next game in the series.
The issue was that Naniwa was viewing a replay of a game which was abandoned and to be replayed on a same map. Even then, there were no rules though.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Only "fact" worth mentioning in your statement is that you've seen Spades stream cheat first hand. Stop saying 'someone told me blah blah blah.' Leenock part as well, unless you actually saw him speaking to a player and understood what he was saying in Korean.
Second hand statements you have are problematic on their own. They are as sweeping as 'Spades stream cheats therefore many foreigners stream cheat.'
What people need to remember is that if you're going to to a main map scan, you probably won't do it on the very very exact edge, because that makes it harder to see exactly where you are looking. Instead (and Spades demonstrated this in the VOD Catz showed) you scroll a little bit beyond, and then click in the area you want, that isn't directly on the edge. This makes sure your scan isn't wasted, and is where you want to scan. I highly doubt he was scanning on the very periphery of his screen.
I predict the guy who almost took down Lucifron will get knocked out a few rounds into the open bracket. That is, if he even dares to show up.
Repeat-offenders deserve no respect, no sympathy, nothing. Trash hackers need to be treated as such. It sickens me when people cry about how his "career" is over because of this. Damn right it's over, as it well should be.
I liked most part of CatZ stream, I regret that they put so much weight onto the "magic scan" though because;
1) You don't always see the center of the scan when you pull it off on camera (as they claim) 2) It wasn't their strongest piece of evidence
IMO: And people have previously stated this in the thread, the strongest piece of evidence I find in all this mess is the fact that in a 7 game series, Spades never once looks at the fog of war UNLESS he's actually clicking in it (which disables the camera lock? If I understand this correctly). However, when watching his ladder games/streamed games he watches the fog of war quite a lot before even clicking there. How you all of a sudden start playing (seemingly) by using the minimap only, and the only time you ever are in the fog of war is if you're right clicking in it, when you on ladder or when on stream constantly check the Fog of war, is just too weird for me.
TT1 mentioned one stream that we're creature of habits, you don't suddenly stop doing things that you were doing in fifty, probably hundreds of games before. If ANYONE has a reasonable explanation to why Spades isn't looking at the Fog of war even once in the bo7 series against LucifroN, I'd like to hear it.
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I never regarded the way the scans showed up in the replays to be as fishy as the other stuff.
Hey, what if someone went into the replays and figured out his screen hotkeys, unit hotkeys, mouse scroll speed and everything and reverse engineered where his cursor had to be at all times
The true verification is from his released replays (group analysis is ongoing right now) compared to the very fishy replays. Is this style of minimap usage a common thing for him? Does his blindly move his siege tanks frequently on hunches and is this sometimes a wrong guess (i.e. the recently released replays either show or do not show acting on hunches for positioning). How does the camera movement compare in the released replays?
Still innocent until proven guilty in my mind. This anonymous mud flinger speaking as an authority on Spades' brood war community and speaking "we" as a community bothers me.
but we must stop at any cost people from maphacking at pro/semi-pro levels.
No, we appreciate good research and take maphacking serious, BUT we identify as a community as our gamer tags with (sometimes) our real names behind them.
Making this account on May 29th, 2012 to bring your deeply troubling charges against Spades on June 5th is not a "we" as a community (unless you were identifying with the Anonymous hacking organization which may pride itself on a myriad of unknown users, for a comparison). Spades cannot face his accuser for his accuser hides.
Innocent until proven guilty is a good philosophy to use on people who haven't been guilty of the same crime previously. Otherwise.... we have good reason to believe that he is a prime hacking suspect.
On June 05 2012 13:32 Scisyhp wrote: What people need to remember is that if you're going to to a main map scan, you probably won't do it on the very very exact edge, because that makes it harder to see exactly where you are looking. Instead (and Spades demonstrated this in the VOD Catz showed) you scroll a little bit beyond, and then click in the area you want, that isn't directly on the edge. This makes sure your scan isn't wasted, and is where you want to scan. I highly doubt he was scanning on the very periphery of his screen.
In the snippet from Spades' stream which Catz 'analysed', Spades did just that, he scanned on the very periphery of his screen against the protoss opponent.
This is very important to at least show that this was not factual evidence against Spades. and edit: I tested it myself, you can click anywhere on like the top 15% of ur screen and the center of the scan goes above to the next screen... so you have quite a bit of space to have this happen.
However, you really cannot argue anything about army movements, 100% safe openings, fog locks, viking position, tank position, when he drops, etc etc.. the list goes on and anyone in GM, even high masters, terran or not, can see that the movements he takes are such blatant mirrors of his opponent that something is not right.
The moment "coincience" happens that much in something like a TvT and that many times it's clear to me that something is not right. Sorry Spades, but you don't just magically move and predict where everything is every game in a showmatch only to lose games when you're not focused on a different part of harass or your base.
This was my exact point when you watched Spade's other replays. Catz dismissed this fact, but you can indeed do this "magic" scan, which invalidates this "evidence" against Spades.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Only "fact" worth mentioning in your statement is that you've seen Spades stream cheat first hand. Stop saying 'someone told me blah blah blah.' Leenock part as well, unless you actually saw him speaking to a player and understood what he was saying in Korean.
Second hand statements you have are problematic on their own. They are as sweeping as 'Spades stream cheats therefore many foreigners stream cheat.'
Well the problem with this is that other players/people echoed the same sentiments after he posted this. So i'm inclined to believe what he's said about the koreans and stream cheating being a norm over there..
On June 05 2012 13:32 Scisyhp wrote: What people need to remember is that if you're going to to a main map scan, you probably won't do it on the very very exact edge, because that makes it harder to see exactly where you are looking. Instead (and Spades demonstrated this in the VOD Catz showed) you scroll a little bit beyond, and then click in the area you want, that isn't directly on the edge. This makes sure your scan isn't wasted, and is where you want to scan. I highly doubt he was scanning on the very periphery of his screen.
In the snippet from Spades' stream which Catz 'analysed', Spades did just that, he scanned on the very periphery of his screen against the protoss opponent.
No, he scanned maybe a half an inch away from the periphery against his protoss opponent. That makes a big difference.
EPT
