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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Chessz
United States644 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:22 ch33psh33p wrote: See video proof, the evidence is wrong. It seemed like the center of spades' scan was even further away, it most definitely lookedlike it was a minimap scan. and wouldn't be possible when he was simultaneously moving his mouse up to scroll the screen upward and then somehow down to the minimap perfectly and simultaneously not move the camera | ||
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sureup
Norway28 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:22 itsjuspeter wrote: problem is this isn't enough. If you watched the analysis, the scan was SO FAR AWAY from the screen of vision that it was impossible. Yes I agree, it isn't definate anything, unless we compare them directly. I just tried to recreate it based on what i saw on CatZ' stream. So if anyone has the replay please check and see if it's so far off it can't be a standard scan. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:23 tomatriedes wrote: And not just Koreans. Any foreigner who lives in a house with other gamers is going to be just as likely to do this. It just seems so silly to broadcast online tournaments live with no delay when there's money involved. Diamond: This is probably the single largest accusation ever in SC2 history, I hope it has no basis (Korean stream cheating in pro houses) because if true stands to shake the entire foundation of Starcraft. I asked people I know in Korea and some confirmed it but not people I would trust enough to say it's a 100% thing, but the person I trust the most in Korea told me they has not seen it but believes it. The general consensus is that if you build a system that allows it than it's your fault. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take this as confirming it, it is far from it, but now would be a good time for someone to look into this, both from the journalism side and that ever useless SC2CON or w/e it's called now. Again I really hope this is not true about the Korean houses, as well as Leenock. Spades is really the smallest revelation in that I feel..... tgun: I've just asked a few people and they've also confirmed that stream cheating is pretty common. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:22 ch33psh33p wrote: See video proof, the evidence is wrong. Still doesn't matter, some of his scans were so dammn far away you couldn't even see the circle itself, never mind the center. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:23 Gamegene wrote: yah cuz this has nothing to do with tournaments or prize moneyz. just ladder points rite? Do you work for a tournament? If so then please apply what ever measures you need to stop hacking in your tournament. If not then you have no business determining who is a cheater or not. | ||
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soon.Cloak
United States983 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:14 Dosey wrote: Anything short of a computer scan that is proven to detect all hacks could be considered circumstantial. I think the camera lock and these "magic scans" are rather conclusive though. I would tend to agree, but I don't know anything about the replay being not perfectly in sync. That's also why I think "Innocent until proven guilty" is being misused, and should not be taken literally. Even in court, DNA evidence is taken, because it's 99.9999% good. What about the .0001%? Nobody cares- "proven" just means beyond a reasonable doubt. Same thing here. Nobody can literally prove he cheated, but to demand that is ridiculous. | ||
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slicknav
1409 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:24 zmansman17 wrote: I don't even know what to think anymore. I need to community to form my opinions for me!! | ||
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Disengaged
United States6994 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:24 DjDickGrayson wrote: Stream Arrest! And request to keep thread open!! Why don't we watch his streamed games and see if he plays the same then compare results to the accused hacked matches. I also, and I'm sure the pro's feel the same way, encourage anyone that might have a suspicious replay to come forward. Livelihood's are at stake here and we must reach a conclusion quickly, we don't want a smear/bullying campaign on our hands. Wouldn't be hard to turn it "off" and play normally. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:16 poeticEnnui wrote: I just saw CatZ's analysis of the "Magic Scan." Consensus says that it's impossible, but we all know how reliable consensus is -- so howabout we try to empirically verify the truth of it? So: let's load up a game vs. AI and try to recreate a "Magic Scan." If we can reproduce it without hacks, we can throw this evidence out. If not, it's still on the table. I didn't read every page of the thread, but this seems to be in the vein of what Nerchio tried to do. Let's follow his example -- the abundance of induction-based and lack of logic-based ethics in this debate is disturbing. I'm thinking about doing it myself, but the question is also why? I play terran, over 2500 games and never in my life have I scanned without a reason for scanning. Following that, I have to think about scanning before I scan. And following that, and perhaps this is a stretch, but I have never scrolled my screen in a direction away from the minimap if I plan to use a minimap scan. His defense (or at least one of them)was that he was suffering mouse problems, in which case, if we were to believe that, there wouldn't be a reason to test it. Even if no one can produce a magic scan, surely someone with a malfunctioning mouse can. Someone people are also claiming the possibility of a 4:3 resolution. Possible, but 1) i'd like to see him confirm if he is using such a resolution, and then 2) someone with a similar resolution can try to produce it (although this has the same faults as the malfunction mouse argument). | ||
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nOlifeTERRAN
United States153 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:19 AxionSteel wrote: cArn lived with spades in the gom house and could potentially be friends with him, too  To the people I was saying "you don't know who carn is etcetcetc". Note this quote. | ||
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riff
United States113 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this. If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations. If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues. There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment. GL HF Spades. I strongly disagree. We, the community, have a responsibility to police ourselves and weed out the bad apples. We do not and should not delegate this responsibility to anyone. If anything, Blizzard should be helping us. | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:17 Mirhi wrote: eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit. I question whether people really want to know. I see what you're saying, but as with real sports, these things usually eventually come out and often with catastrophic consequences. Keeping this stuff beneath the surface may not do the community any favors in the future, because if not revealed these things fester, grow, and get worse. (Again, this is not on you to reveal) | ||
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StarStrider
United States689 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:24 DuFFmAn69 wrote: that's a lot of pages! spades, you should start streaming for mass views right now ftw. $_$ Trust me, the spike of viewers he would get that flood his chat with cheating discussions would not be helpful to him in the long run. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:25 algorithm0r wrote: Do you work for a tournament? If so then please apply what ever measures you need to stop hacking in your tournament. If not then you have no business determining who is a cheater or not. yeah we shouldn't give him any negative attention or backlash. otherwise he might feel the repercussions of cheating. that wouldn't be nice. | ||
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Sumahi
Guam5609 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:23 algorithm0r wrote: It is Blizzards business only, not ours. If they want to leave them on there forever they can. and risk destroying the legitimacy of competitive gaming for sc2. yeah | ||
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jmbnm
24 Posts
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difused
Germany11 Posts
i saw the game against avilo live on stream... its just obvious that hes a hacker and just rediculous that hes still denying it... any experienced terran saves scans when he lost airsuperiority, thats nothing you can explain with cutting corners and gamesense, that is bullshit, if ur not doing it ur not a good player and therefore u dont play the level spades plays or ur a hacker | ||
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IcedBacon
Canada906 Posts
On June 05 2012 13:26 Risen wrote: To the people I was saying "you don't know who carn is etcetcetc". Note this quote. ...We all knew that too. | ||
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