07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:18 zergtossy wrote: LASTSHADOW WAS CAUGHT CHEATING IN BW! He still has a career! why is this? why is spades being put on the cross?
Dragon was caught cheating in SC2 and now he's a streaming hero, Spades gets accused without conclusive evidence and he'll never be invited to a tournament again. Funny how things work ^_^
Not saying he's innocent, but you can't end someone's career based on suspicion...oh wait, a guy with 1 post just did.
On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote: *REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
The point isn't if it's impossible or not, the point is why would you scroll until an inch away from your targeted scan point, then immediately move your camera away from that spot, and then scan using the mini map? And why would you only use that method in an important showmatch, and not on any of your ladder games.
The stark difference between mechanics in the replays vs. ladder games is what makes it so obvious.
he is always using minimap to move out into fog of war. You can see mouse cursor in replays. When he does this (moves into fog), he often does double or triple clicks in a small area, but not on exactly the same spot. These clicks are NOT a pixel on the minimap apart. If you were triple clicking on the minimap the clicks would either be further apart or on exactly the same spot.
It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations.
If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues.
There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
On June 05 2012 13:11 boxturtle wrote: What?! Naniwa and Leenock are shady? What the hell, this can't be true. Well, at least there's Bomber. My favorite Terran would never do anything like this.
On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote: *REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
More people need to try this.
Doesn't matter, the scan was so far away from the screen that the only way he could had done it was if he did it on the minimap, and why the hell do you scan but never look at the area you just scanned?
Why would Spades decide he needed to hack? Thats what i dont understand. What made him decide to start hacking? He didnt think he would get caught? Easy money? really baffles me, because im sure he must know what the consequences would be if he gets caught
On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote: *REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
Someone else plz confirm.
1) Very important 2) I have no sc2 right now
I tried it myself, you do not see the middle of scan if you scan edge of screen.
On June 05 2012 13:16 poeticEnnui wrote: I just saw CatZ's analysis of the "Magic Scan."
Consensus says that it's impossible, but we all know how reliable consensus is -- so howabout we try to empirically verify the truth of it? So: let's load up a game vs. AI and try to recreate a "Magic Scan." If we can reproduce it without hacks, we can throw this evidence out. If not, it's still on the table.
I didn't read every page of the thread, but this seems to be in the vein of what Nerchio tried to do. Let's follow his example -- the abundance of induction-based and lack of logic-based ethics in this debate is disturbing.
Its not about the magic scan specifically and if it can't be recreated. Its about his mechanics. In the replays in question he scans 1 way (magic scans). In his FPVODs from his stream and other replays from bnet he scans how most people normally scan. If he scans a certain way in the majority of replays and then scans "suspiciously" in other games with money on the line its becomes suspect.
Someone could come into the thread and say hey scanned like this. That doesnt mean they do it in game when they play cause thats not what they are use to.
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations.
If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues.
There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
GL HF Spades.
cause blizzard acts so fast at banning bots/hackers.
On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote: ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this
Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not.
You clearly have no idea who you are talking to.
He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean
You also clearly don't know who he is.
cArn has literally accomplished nothing. At all.
Everyone so feisty in this thread that we have to take a jab at a person most people know and like. I get it you all want blood, but relax my brothers, the final judgement won't be passed down anytime soon. Reacting here with anger won't lead to a resolution any sooner.
On June 05 2012 13:09 ABear wrote: I always wondered why any team would be stupid enough to sign a blacklisted BW player to their team in SC2, so when Spades was getting all that attention, I had to hold my tongue, but I'm not surprised it turned out this way.
Anyway, the evidence looks pretty conclusive to me, and IMO I think the truth has come out. Anyone who defends Spades after watching the Catz/Illusion/Drewbie/TT1 analysis has to be viewed at with suspicion at this point.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation.
Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally.
If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all?
You answered your own question.
So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything.
eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit.
I question whether people really want to know.
now that you opened the door an inch people want it thrown wide open, better to have not said anything if you didnt want people to want more
No, I'm glad that we we're made aware of this. Whenever NASL does a live match, or any tournament where stream cheating is possible, I'm not going to assume that both sides are golden boys. I will, and hopefully everyone will, question how they are preventing stream cheating (delaying etc...)
On June 05 2012 13:21 mcleod wrote: What im most curious about is WHY?
Why would Spades decide he needed to hack? Thats what i dont understand. What made him decide to start hacking? He didnt think he would get caught? Easy money? really baffles me, because im sure he must know what the consequences would be if he gets caught
because he's on a no name team and no one gives two shits about him.
Yes. My claim is that if lesser known sports like (no offense to them) Cricket, motorsport, and sumowrestling can have scandals and be fine, I see no reason why sc2 should be different. Tbh I don't find it to be a "massive cheating/hacking scandal". From my understanding, it was an online showmatch for 0 money, as opposed to a lan tournament for a 100k prize pool. Of all the imaginable scandals that affect the pro scene, this is like the smallest possible. Seriously, what event could be less meaningless that still puts pros in the spotlight?
My main point is that for "a scene to be strong" it must have viewers and sponsors or something. Right? Lets look at hypotheticals. A person is introduced to starcraft, and someone says, yea, but they had a scandal where some guy cheated. Is that really enough to turn them away? Same with sponsors. The fact is that even if you heavily differentiate between esports and regular sports, most people don't when it comes to a topic like this. If you say esports scandal, and I don't know much about esports, I'll be thinking of examples from real sports, and really famous scandals from really big sports that are doing just fine these days.
Where there is an incentive to win, there is incentive to cheat. I think most people realize this, I think esports will be just fine.
On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote: *REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
More people need to try this.
Doesn't matter, the scan was so far away from the screen that the only way he could had done it was if he did it on the minimap, and why the hell do you scan but never look at the area you just scanned?
See video proof, the evidence is wrong.
On June 05 2012 13:20 sureup wrote: I tested the magic scan, and yes you cannot see the center!
On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote: ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this
Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not.
Bias still makes your argumentation invalid and stupid. When you try to make a point you don't use even things that hold no weight at all the way they did on Entombed.
I saw the series vs Lucifron live, and seriously it was legit, I remember also facepalming at a lot of things he does, it's easy to just remember all the things that might look suspicious and ignore all the stupid things he did that lost him games.
Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make.
I completely agree with you about the siege, but the follow up is more suspicious. He sees vikings, stims forward to snipe them, but runs back for "no reason" - suggesting he knew the tanks behind the fog of war were sieging.
EPT
