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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
I just saw CatZ's analysis of the "Magic Scan."
Consensus says that it's impossible, but we all know how reliable consensus is -- so howabout we try to empirically verify the truth of it? So: let's load up a game vs. AI and try to recreate a "Magic Scan." If we can reproduce it without hacks, we can throw this evidence out. If not, it's still on the table.
I didn't read every page of the thread, but this seems to be in the vein of what Nerchio tried to do. Let's follow his example -- the abundance of induction-based and lack of logic-based ethics in this debate is disturbing.
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What I don't understand is that ANY player that is at least top diamond not think there is something suspicious, why in every game that he played vs lucifron he was always hard countering, and sometimes blatantly just avoided parts of his army that he never saw, like the tanks just sieging on entombed right before his counter, and also never looking into the fog of war. on top of that when he played another guy they showed on Catz stream, some QxG guy i think, he was basically just matching the guys movements without seeing his army...... I personally think if someone cheats even if they make a living off this or not deserves to be shut out unconditionally, unless he of course redeems himself by getting good as fuck and showing everyone that he can do what he was doing vs lucifron and not cheat while doing it.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is.
When I read the "You clearly have no idea who you're talking to" I still wasn't ready to click the spoiler tag and reveal who he was talking to. Probably the best thing I've read on the TL forums ever.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is.
cArn has literally accomplished nothing. At all.
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On June 05 2012 13:14 Mobsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is. You're a very condescending person, fyi
I agree with you. It's a problem. I'm working on it.
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On June 05 2012 13:12 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:00 Jell wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. This is really scary, I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who know shit is going down but are afraid of being the ones doing it. When you think about it, it 's not surprising at all. Imagine you're at a team house surrounded by team mates playing in a Playhem tournament for 100$ or whatever which is being streamed with no delay. It's so easy for a team mate to just on the stream and start telling you what's going on. Every online tournament needs to start using significant delays. It's just madness that they don't and expect people not to cheat.
Yeah I was afraid of this, if the poorer Korean teams and player have the means to make money in online tournaments by cheating easily I can see the younger ones doing it. especially in a team house environment where it's easy to give into peer pressure.
I really doubt this happens in the Slayers/IM houses though.
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On June 05 2012 13:15 Kaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:11 Gamegene wrote:On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
let's make it official what a dumb way to decide whether this is true or not. we're not reddit, we're not going to democratically condemn this guy. we're going to stick to the evidence presented and analyzed. there's no need to give political fodder for the naysayers. The entire idea behind a jury is to democratically condemn people. The poll is asking people to make a decision based on the evidence presented.
A jury spends a lot more time looking at evidence, and that evidence must be presented in a manner approved by a judge.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. Bias still makes your argumentation invalid and stupid. When you try to make a point you don't use even things that hold no weight at all the way they did on Entombed. I saw the series vs Lucifron live, and seriously it was legit, I remember also facepalming at a lot of things he does, it's easy to just remember all the things that might look suspicious and ignore all the stupid things he did that lost him games. Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make.
Okay, now please defend how in the normal games he played he always moves into fog of war and clicks for movement/scans/etc. but in the suspected games the only thing protecting him is he theoretically played 100% from the minimap, why the sudden and EXTREME change in mechanics? Tell me. I know you want to protect him but at this point even I'm convinced and I held my tongue until I was sure.
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On June 05 2012 13:15 Kaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:11 Gamegene wrote:On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
let's make it official what a dumb way to decide whether this is true or not. we're not reddit, we're not going to democratically condemn this guy. we're going to stick to the evidence presented and analyzed. there's no need to give political fodder for the naysayers. The entire idea behind a jury is to democratically condemn people. The poll is asking people to make a decision based on the evidence presented.
we all know that 50% of the people voting will have not watch the replays, the stream or have any actual SC2 credentials to make an informed decision.
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On June 05 2012 13:05 efren wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:02 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 efren wrote:On June 05 2012 12:45 Grampz wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 Bagration wrote:Oh god, it's starting to seem like Savior 2010 all over again. Mirhi's accusations of Koreans cheating is especially concerning. I'm not even a particularly big fan of Leenock, but I can't imagine him intentionally cheating though. He's so young, and seems like a kid who just likes video games. I don't know if the scene is strong enough to survive a massive cheating/hacking scandal quite frankly.  Bringing that up right now... May be the only time it is necessary. You are damned right. Have they TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT RUINED BW IN THE FIRST PLACE? This is fucked. So fucked. sc2 is done if there was a massive cheating/hacking scandal as a esport I'll just point you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sporting_scandals u do notice that those are physical sports?
Yes. My claim is that if lesser known sports like (no offense to them) Cricket, motorsport, and sumowrestling can have scandals and be fine, I see no reason why sc2 should be different. Tbh I don't find it to be a "massive cheating/hacking scandal". From my understanding, it was an online showmatch for 0 money, as opposed to a lan tournament for a 100k prize pool. Of all the imaginable scandals that affect the pro scene, this is like the smallest possible. Seriously, what event could be less meaningless that still puts pros in the spotlight?
My main point is that for "a scene to be strong" it must have viewers and sponsors or something. Right? Lets look at hypotheticals. A person is introduced to starcraft, and someone says, yea, but they had a scandal where some guy cheated. Is that really enough to turn them away? Same with sponsors. The fact is that even if you heavily differentiate between esports and regular sports, most people don't when it comes to a topic like this. If you say esports scandal, and I don't know much about esports, I'll be thinking of examples from real sports, and really famous scandals from really big sports that are doing just fine these days.
Where there is an incentive to win, there is incentive to cheat. I think most people realize this, I think esports will be just fine.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. Bias still makes your argumentation invalid and stupid. When you try to make a point you don't use even things that hold no weight at all the way they did on Entombed. I saw the series vs Lucifron live, and seriously it was legit, I remember also facepalming at a lot of things he does, it's easy to just remember all the things that might look suspicious and ignore all the stupid things he did that lost him games. Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make.
Did you even watch the replays?? You are making yourself look like an idiot, specially by calling out players that actually watched the replays IN DETAIL. Go watch the replays and then explain to me how he does the Magic scans.. Go ahead ill wait..
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On June 05 2012 13:16 ~Maverick~ wrote:
Concerning the "magic" scans, is it possible that Spades' aspect ration gives him more vertical vision; for example, if spades has a 4:3 aspect ratio, and then the replay is viewed in 16: 9 ratio, could it happen that Spades has more vertical vision, and thus the scan is in the center of the screen.
Not trying to defend him or anything, just speculating and trying to be more level-headed than other people in this thread.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. 4:3 has the same vertical vision as 16 . 16 just gives you more horizontal vision.
Not to mention there was footage of him not hacking, where that didn't happen.
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On June 05 2012 13:06 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:03 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all? You answered your own question. So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything.
eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit.
I question whether people really want to know.
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On June 05 2012 13:12 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:00 Jell wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. This is really scary, I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who know shit is going down but are afraid of being the ones doing it. When you think about it, it 's not surprising at all. Imagine you're at a team house surrounded by team mates playing in a Playhem tournament for 100$ or whatever which is being streamed with no delay. It's so easy for a team mate to just on the stream and start telling you what's going on. Every online tournament needs to start using significant delays. It's just madness that they don't and expect people not to cheat.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if some of them smurfed on their teammates' accounts for whatever reason (practice, more convenient time for one compared to the other --> splitting the money, etc.). The only thing we have is their word on who is playing, which isn't a problem most of the time imo (I err on thinking they're honest most of the time, because there's little to gain otherwise), but some people do watch specifically because they want to see Player X, which would make it seem a little false if they thought they were watching Player X but Y were playing instead.
Basically, my point being it's really hard to enforce things like the Playhems.
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Who says Reddit has the best witch-hunts?
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On June 05 2012 13:16 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is. cArn has literally accomplished nothing. At all.
he most likely things the cArn talking here is the CS legend fnatic.cArn, while hes just a high master terran player from france who moved to korea to live there.
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*REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
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the "scouting" scv was hilarious
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On June 05 2012 13:15 Kaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:11 Gamegene wrote:On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
let's make it official what a dumb way to decide whether this is true or not. we're not reddit, we're not going to democratically condemn this guy. we're going to stick to the evidence presented and analyzed. there's no need to give political fodder for the naysayers. The entire idea behind a jury is to democratically condemn people. The poll is asking people to make a decision based on the evidence presented.
Holy shit, so we're a self-appointed jury now? This thread has become the anointed dispenser of justice?
We have no power, that poll means nothing and acting like it does only fans the flames of witch hunting and mob mentality.
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On June 05 2012 13:03 Goibon wrote:This reminds me of that time i was on a jury and we all agreed the guy was guilty. But in order to convict we had to say that we believed the prosecution had proven beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty. And we couldn't do that. Here's some things i found inadequate 1) Demonstrating the scan functionality of the off screen thing. They needed to go into a custom game themselves and show us why it was impossible. 2) Showing clearly many examples of the actual clicking into the fog which he supposedly normally did. 3) Run over examples of hacking multiple times. For instance in sports when they go to the video ref to rule if something happened they show the same scene it over and over again so you're clear 100% you know what you're watching. CatZ failed to do this to my satisfaction. I could go into specific examples where they failed to go into enough detail and repeatedly show the offending vision clearly but that was most of them. They'd show it once or twice, he's pause and i wouldn't know if he had paused or the screen was 'locked'. It was a clusterfuck. So overall while i'm probably 85% confident based on what i've seen that he's guilty, i'm not satisfied enough that they've proven it because for me the onus is on them to prove it and they've not done that sufficiently. And i'm not even sitting here with massively high standards (nor do i even really know who Spades is beyond it being a famliar name). Just regular beyond reasonable doubt crap any decent democratic legal system would require. Fun show though i hope you got plenty of ad revenue 
That's great, but this isn't a court of law. Private business and anywhere else do not need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
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EPT
