|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right.
But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army.
What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial.
|
On June 05 2012 13:10 Demoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:01 storkman wrote:
Idk why everyone is so butt hurt over him hacking i gaurentee 99% of you will never play him on ladder and even if he does win on ladder what does he gain? There isn't a cash prize of a million dollars if he is number one on gm. Him cheating which looks pretty apparent to me really doesn't help him get any better at Sc so really if anything its hurting him get better at Sc.
No i'm not saying hacking is right or that he doesn't hack but who cares? Yes cheating is wrong but it's not like he is using cheating to gain anything real(as much as many of you believe that ladder points are real to be truth full they aren't) So for everyone hating him for doing this it's quite ridiculous.
and to sideburn i agree 100 percent that the fact that everyone here would get this angry and upset is really silly and extremely sad and that a community as great as this one would lash out and try to ruin this guys career because he got some extra ladder points. I imagine the people in GM and Masters who play him and get cheated out of wins would care. He's also taking up a GM spot of somebody who deserves it. I don't have to be personally effected to think its a scummy thing to do.
User was warned for this post
|
What?! Naniwa and Leenock are shady? What the hell, this can't be true. Well, at least there's Bomber. My favorite Terran would never do anything like this.
|
On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to.
Lol what?
|
In big online tournaments i believe there should be review as shown by pro players tonight but going as far as they have is ridiculous and no i didn't know that it was a show match and i'm sorry if that comment hurt anyone's feelings but i didn't support him cheating and never said he didn't i'm actually pretty sure i said i believed he cheated but complaining about a ladder rank is sad
|
On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:PLEASE VOTE ONLY IF YOU'VE SEEN REPLAYS or ANALYSIS AND IF YOU CAN WATCH WITH A CRITICAL MIND WITHOUT BEING INFLUENCED BY CATZ VOICE AND CAN WATCH OBJECTIVELY Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
where do you stand? forget catz/illusion/drewbie being the jury and judge, lets see what the community thinks
removed cuz this is post is pointless
|
On June 05 2012 13:08 bokchoi wrote:
So Leenock gives tips to a player and is considered a cheater? LOL??
SUPPOSEDLY, NaNiwa was watching the replay of the games vs NesTea mid-series, which MLG actually has rules against.
The more concerning thing lost in the Leenock statement was the accusation that players were stream cheating in live showmatches in team houses. To me that's way worse than Leenock talking vaguely about a game.
|
On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
let's make it official
what a dumb way to decide whether this is true or not. we're not reddit, we're not going to democratically condemn this guy.
we're going to stick to the evidence presented and analyzed. there's no need to give political fodder for the naysayers.
|
It seems to me that as well as players, casters, observers...etc etc...SC2 also now needs Judges 
To be honest, if you a serious about this, an extremely well trusted person or group of people would need to spend more than just a couple of hours looking into an individual case before making a decision.
|
Well, I will be enjoying watching a hacker being outclassed in the opening brackets in MLG. They better stream it so we can see all his magical scans and amazing gaming sense where he knows where his opponent army is and micro perfect against it even though he doesn't actually have vision of what he is fighting against.
|
I think Illusion and friends had sufficient proof for this. GJ on that find.
|
On June 05 2012 13:00 Jell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. This is really scary, I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who know shit is going down but are afraid of being the ones doing it.
When you think about it, it 's not surprising at all. Imagine you're at a team house surrounded by team mates playing in a Playhem tournament for 100$ or whatever which is being streamed with no delay. It's so easy for a team mate to just on the stream and start telling you what's going on. Every online tournament needs to start using significant delays. It's just madness that they don't and expect people not to cheat.
|
BTW, there are more instances of Catz "magic scan" where instead of scanning he is rallying units or moving units into fog of war.
For example, on IPL shattered temple vs lucifron at exactly 8:01 (if you pause) you see his camera is on the screen right at the edge of his vision, but if you scroll down a bit you see the mouse cursor action saying he is trying to move to a spot in lucifron's base.
Also this was a double click, the second one slightly higher than the first one, which im pretty sure is impossible to get that close using the minimap.
|
On June 05 2012 12:55 Toons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:54 dde wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. Even i know a few gamers that stream cheated during when i frequently played playhem and stopped playing because playhem didnt put any delay(I even requested them to put some delay) on their stream a while back. There goes the neighbourhood ...
Woah wait a minute. this sounds much more serious than this whole spades thing. Koreans regularly stream cheat?? WTF? Someone should really look into this if thats the case
|
Let's let KESPA decide his fate!
|
On June 05 2012 13:08 AlexanderDebois wrote:
As far as the minimap scan thing goes people claiming it should be tested or some such do not realize how all terrans scan. Scanning the minimap is something that no-one would actually do because it is not only much less accurate than brining your screen there first but less efficient as you are going to have to bring your screen there after you finish scanning via the minimap. It would be akin to not rallying your workers or some shit.
Thats not the point they were making.
Its completely OK to scan via minimap although almost no1 ever does it. But its doable.
The problem is, that he goes with his mouse (or even arrow keys, that doesnt make a difference. its about his view) till hes 1 inch away from the point which he then scans via minimap. That is pretty much impossible to do concerning accuracy and its also the most inefficient and most stupid way to do.
|
On June 05 2012 13:10 halvorg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
let's make it official I'm not voting in this poll because it is a bad idea to have it in the first place. (I do think spades hack though) The bronze-master masses should not decide whether or not a pro-gamer hacks.
It's extremely stupid with the "let's make it official" like it's a fucking court of law or something at the bottom.
The point is things are out in the open now and it's going to be up to teams and tournaments to handle it from here.
|
On June 05 2012 13:11 soon.Cloak wrote:
Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right.
But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army.
What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial.
THIS
|
On June 05 2012 13:01 storkman wrote:
Idk why everyone is so butt hurt over him hacking i gaurentee 99% of you will never play him on ladder and even if he does win on ladder what does he gain? There isn't a cash prize of a million dollars if he is number one on gm. Him cheating which looks pretty apparent to me really doesn't help him get any better at Sc so really if anything its hurting him get better at Sc.
No i'm not saying hacking is right or that he doesn't hack but who cares? Yes cheating is wrong but it's not like he is using cheating to gain anything real(as much as many of you believe that ladder points are real to be truth full they aren't) So for everyone hating him for doing this it's quite ridiculous.
and to sideburn i agree 100 percent that the fact that everyone here would get this angry and upset is really silly and extremely sad and that a community as great as this one would lash out and try to ruin this guys career because he got some extra ladder points.
The problem with the cheating isn't the fact of what player may or may not get out of it. It shits all over everything that Starcraft really should be. A game of skill that players dedicate their entire lives to. Competition in it's most perfect form. Two people taking their skills and pitting them against each other. Yup, the showmatch was for no cash. Neither would get anything tangible out of it. However, with the massive pile of evidence, he's taking a metaphorical shit all over everything people believe in and train for. It cheapens us all.
|
I think it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt, given the functionality of the hack. For those scans, his camera was clearly headed in the direction of the scan, and then locked as soon as it entered the fog of war, with the scan happening outside of his vision.
The only technically possible way to accomplish that would have been to drag the camera with the minimap, but that would have been a lot jerkier and is inconsistent with the way he plays in other situations. He couldn't have used the arrow keys, because of the speed at which the camera was panning, and because of how impossible that would be to hit C, use the arrow keys, and scan on the minimap at the same time.
The only other possibility is that it's a replay glitch, but there's no good reason to think that unless we can find examples of that happening in other people's replays. And given that those scans happened in two seperate games, I highly doubt it's a glitch.
And regardless of what the teams and leagues decide, I think it's safe to say that his image as a player is pretty much ruined. He's going to get boo'd at tournaments, people will contact sponsors and inform them that they're sponsoring a cheater, and all of that kind of stuff. Ultimately, it's not just up to the teams and leagues to decide. The community's already made their decision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
