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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 13:10 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:04 StarBrift wrote:
"Pro" players coming into this thread defending Spades without even watching the CONCLUSIVE evidence. The camera locks + the magic scan is undisputable evidence of his guilt. Undisputable. It was shown several times and the actions made no logical sense if you assume he isn't cheating. All the circumstantial evidence just compounds it even further. Take hisn history and Franks testimony of his character and this is the biggest no brainer in the history of investigations. If this was a real offense and a court trial he would be recieving a guilty sentence in 99 out of a 100 cases.
Please stop jumping on the bandwagon of trying to apear fair and reasonable (or scientific) when you're ignoring VERY strong evidence. Please stop misusing the word conclusive. Conclusive would mean you had a program monitoring Spades' computer or a witness to him actually cheating. You have a bunch of CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, that when taken all together appears very damning. If that is enough to convince you, then go ahead and say that. However, saying there is conclusive evidence when there is not is silly.
Please understand (and I'm not saying you don't, but several in this friend seem not to) that circumstantial evidence has, and will continue to decide many court cases. Conclusive evidence is relatively uncommon; circumstantial evidence can be very convincing and ultimately overwhelming.
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On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean
You also clearly don't know who he is.
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On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not.
Bias still makes your argumentation invalid and stupid. When you try to make a point you don't use even things that hold no weight at all the way they did on Entombed.
I saw the series vs Lucifron live, and seriously it was legit, I remember also facepalming at a lot of things he does, it's easy to just remember all the things that might look suspicious and ignore all the stupid things he did that lost him games.
Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make.
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All I have to say about this is - if Spades is in fact a hacker he should be derided obviously.
But if he isn't there is probably no way to compensate him for the damage done to him.
Assuming he's innocent, in other fields he would have been able to sue the OP/accusers for a large compensation considering the damage done to him.
What I'm saying is - assuming he's innocent, I hope the false accusers suffer the consequences.
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A new requirement for posting in this thread should be that you watched CatZ's stream and have a fairly high understanding of how to play the game...
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The difference in camera movements in the Lucifron bo7 and the 50 game replay pack Spades gave are completely different. In the games with Lucifron he never clicks over the fog of war. He is "theoretically" using the mini map the entire time. Yet in the 50 game replay pack he views the fog of war numerous times each game and then sends his units there. The difference is uncanny. You don't play one way for 50 games and then decide to completely change mechanics for a bo7.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is.
You're a very condescending person, fyi
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On June 05 2012 13:11 soon.Cloak wrote:
Just a clarification... It seems that some people are annoyed with this whole thing because they say there is no concrete evidence.
And they're right.
But missing the point.
Nobody here can say with 100% certainty that Spades hacked. But that shouldn't matter. If he would have kept his camera locked on his base for 100 seconds as he blindly moved his army with the minimap to avoid the opponent's army, that also wouldn't be a 100% proof, but would be good enough for everyone to assume he was watching the other army.
What people are saying is that there is enough circumstantial evidence that he hacked. Enough circumstantial evidence is good enough at a point, and what some are arguing is that it reached that point.
If you don't think it reached that point, fine. But please stop saying it's illegitimate because it's circumstantial.
Anything short of a computer scan that is proven to detect all hacks could be considered circumstantial.
I think the camera lock and these "magic scans" are rather conclusive though.
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On June 05 2012 13:11 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:08 bokchoi wrote:
So Leenock gives tips to a player and is considered a cheater? LOL??
SUPPOSEDLY, NaNiwa was watching the replay of the games vs NesTea mid-series, which MLG actually has rules against.
The more concerning thing lost in the Leenock statement was the accusation that players were stream cheating in live showmatches in team houses. To me that's way worse than Leenock talking vaguely about a game.
Actually, that may be worse than you think. It shows that whoever was running at tournament and responsible for enforcing the rules completely failed at their job.
How was Leenock even in a position to give advice to someone in a game in the first place?
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idk, i've never seen his stream, can't say i've even watched any Spades games (maybe when he was on Mr Bitters 12 weeks?) anyways, I watched CatZ stream. as a T player, I'm pretty convinced Spades was hacking in those games.
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On June 05 2012 13:07 Mobsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:00 EienShinwa wrote:On June 05 2012 07:07 Spades wrote:
I have a team, I have sponsors. My career is basically crippled now, even if completely absolved. The OP was out for my blood, and this is how easy it is to destroy someones career. It's impossible for someone to find proof i hacked, because I didn't. It's all circumstantial nonsense, that can't be proven either way. If you want to find suspicious actions, just turn on first person view for anyone in any game and you will find some. I'm being screwed over by this fact, and I hope someone finds an actual foolproof method to detect hacks so this is avoided for others in the future.
So how do i recover something like this? I would know to know how. I really find Spades posts incredibly suspicious and self-defeatist. Instead of trying to be positive and forgive and forget as to be the bigger man if he did not hack, he keeps making it seem as if this has done irreversible damage because of these simple accusations. Come on, people don't lose their entire careers by mudslinging without any decent proof. That is what makes Spades seem incredibly suspicious to me, especially because he has been caught maphacking before. Instead of trying to be as upfront about it as possible, and explain every single accusation thrown at him right back in the accuser's face, he is trying to hide and be as isolated as possible from the situation. After all, if he did not hack and is not a hacker, then wouldn't someone such as a PROGAMER have the balls to cement a defense stronger than what any no namer - especially one with just one post- has to say? After all, he has all the resources(his replays). Wouldn't it give him good publicity to do so? Wouldn't it show his sponsors that he is able to stand up for himself and control situations regarding him? Wouldn't it gain some admiration and fans? The fact that he is trying to garner empathy in such a way that tries to completely ignore the accusations made at him raises some eyebrows.The only reason I can think of is him trying to lay as low as possible and keep attention off the claims given in the OP and by Illusion. The camera locks still have not been answered directly by him with clarity. His claims are all extremely vague and dodge the subject, claiming "chance", "luck", and "randomness" as his only solid defenses. This, this, this!!
I agree to this statement. I mean we can all get around and accuse here, but we have to just wait till the next time he plays unless pure concrete evidence can be proven now.
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On June 05 2012 13:07 CortoMontez wrote:
It has been acknowledged by both sides that there are minor flaws in the replay system, where the screen camera can be slightly delayed or off of the actual location. The scans which were shown from Spades' stream (used by Catz to 'compare') had the center of the scan near the very edge of his screen, and it was only there for a split second before he moved away. This is almost entirely consistent with what was seen in the replay, except in the replay he pulled back slightly sooner. The 'magic scans' can only be confirmed as a hack or not by comparing it with a REPLAY, not an FPVoD, as the replay can show different things than a vod.
Of course, this only addresses the 'magic scan' issue, but I'm sure that a test replay of this type of scan shouldn't be hard to find (maybe Spades can provide one?)
This. Replays smooth camera movement; the only way you could compare it with an FPVoD is if you managed to turn that off, which I don't think the engine allows for easily.
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The biggest evidence to me, were the habits that were presented. Not looking at fog of war in "suspicious" games, not looking at scout, the way he placed the scans.
Also this was NOT a court trial, this was way more casual than that. If it were to go to "court" there would have to be done much more ANALYSIS (number crunching included), on behavioural patterns, reaction timings, action timings relative to known information. All of this comparing the "suspicious" games to the baseline "normal" games from him.
These are things that are VERY hard for him to control, and as such reveal much more deeply if he is behaving normally.
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On June 05 2012 13:11 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:09 swinkles wrote:Poll: Spades hacking?Yes (221) 77% Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent (46) 16% No (19) 7% 286 total votes Your vote: Spades hacking? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Not Enough Proof, Must be declared innocent
let's make it official what a dumb way to decide whether this is true or not. we're not reddit, we're not going to democratically condemn this guy. we're going to stick to the evidence presented and analyzed. there's no need to give political fodder for the naysayers.
The entire idea behind a jury is to democratically condemn people. The poll is asking people to make a decision based on the evidence presented.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is.
Everyone knows who he is. You can stop now.
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On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is.
People know who he is. Stop acting so condescending. He's a low tier pro player who has not won anything, but is special as he lives in Korea!
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I was skeptical, even watching the analysis by TT1, CatZ, Illusion, and Drewbie. Most of the things that Spades does during the show match games could all be chalked up to intuition, luck, or game sense. Other than the "magic scans" (which seem to be rather damning evidence) what really gets me is how he does not look into the fog of war at all during the show match games, yet in his released ladder games it is something that happens multiple multiple times in the manner all of us players do. It was this stark contrast in addition to overwhelming circumstantial evidence found in the questioned games and not in his ladder games which has led me to the conclusion that he was using hacks, at least for the show match in question vs LucifroN.
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Concerning the "magic" scans, is it possible that Spades' aspect ration gives him more vertical vision; for example, if spades has a 4:3 aspect ratio, and then the replay is viewed in 16: 9 ratio, could it happen that Spades has more vertical vision, and thus the scan is in the center of the screen.
Not trying to defend him or anything, just speculating and trying to be more level-headed than other people in this thread.
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On June 05 2012 13:14 Mobsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is. You're a very condescending person, fyi
Who doesn't give reasoning rofl.
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EPT
