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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 13:17 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:16 ~Maverick~ wrote:
Concerning the "magic" scans, is it possible that Spades' aspect ration gives him more vertical vision; for example, if spades has a 4:3 aspect ratio, and then the replay is viewed in 16: 9 ratio, could it happen that Spades has more vertical vision, and thus the scan is in the center of the screen.
Not trying to defend him or anything, just speculating and trying to be more level-headed than other people in this thread. Unfortunately, that's not the case. 4:3 has the same vertical vision as 16  . 16 just gives you more horizontal vision. Not to mention there was footage of him not hacking, where that didn't happen.
Ok, thanks for the explanation.
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On June 05 2012 13:17 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:16 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:13 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:08 Skullflower wrote:On June 05 2012 13:06 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. You clearly have no idea who you are talking to. He's not the cArn from CS if that's what you mean You also clearly don't know who he is. cArn has literally accomplished nothing. At all. he most likely things the cArn talking here is the CS legend fnatic.cArn, while hes just a high master terran player from france who moved to korea to live there.
I pointed out that he wasn't earlier ;P
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LASTSHADOW WAS CAUGHT CHEATING IN BW! He still has a career! why is this? why is spades being put on the cross?
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The problem with the cheating isn't the fact of what player may or may not get out of it. It shits all over everything that Starcraft really should be. A game of skill that players dedicate their entire lives to. Competition in it's most perfect form. Two people taking their skills and pitting them against each other. Yup, the showmatch was for no cash. Neither would get anything tangible out of it. However, with the massive pile of evidence, he's taking a metaphorical shit all over everything people believe in and train for. It cheapens us all.
This I agree 100 percent with but this is like you cheating in math class and the whole school hates you because you got an A and Jimmy got a B. The only way to really stop cheating in starcraft is for blizzard to find a way to neutralize it. So yes i think that cheating is bad but whats the point of killing spades over it? So what spades stops cheating whats going to stop all the other players who hack? Its up to blizzard to fix a problem not players like Catz to flame him on his stream with other known players. Flaming him gains everyone nothing and is really sad.
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On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote:
*REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
More people need to try this.
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Hey, what if someone went into the replays and figured out his screen hotkeys, unit hotkeys, mouse scroll speed and everything and reverse engineered where his cursor had to be at all times
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On June 05 2012 13:17 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:06 Swords wrote:On June 05 2012 13:03 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all? You answered your own question. So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything. eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit. I question whether people really want to know.
Don't cop out with an attitude like this. Tell the community what it deserves to know.
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On June 05 2012 13:18 zergtossy wrote:
LASTSHADOW WAS CAUGHT CHEATING IN BW! He still has a career! why is this? why is spades being put on the cross?
... Spades use the cheat in BW as well???? He had an SC2 career as well.
Lastshadow isnt cheating now. Spades is. Cross
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On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote:
*REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
Someone else plz confirm.
1) Very important
2) I have no sc2 right now
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On June 05 2012 13:08 bokchoi wrote:
So Leenock gives tips to a player and is considered a cheater? LOL??
SUPPOSEDLY, NaNiwa was watching the replay of the games vs NesTea mid-series, which MLG actually has rules against.
Can you link me to the rule? I can't seem to find it in 2011 rules, MLG seems to have added it to 2012 rules however.
Providence 2011 rules: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/competitions/25#event_54_event-rules
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cArn you admitted yourself you haven't watched all the games. The fact is you're defending a guy who didn't once have his camera into the fog of war in any of the replays provided, but scanned and moved armies and units with accuracy. Analyse the replays, pull your head out of your arse and then come back with your opinion. The point you seem to not understand is that map-hacks have this "screen-lock" which when you look into the fog of war, the camera will lock on the position you were looking. This is what Catz and co. have been trying to explain, and you can't see past it due to your own bias.
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cArn lived with spades in the gom house and could potentially be friends with him, too 
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On June 05 2012 13:18 zergtossy wrote:
LASTSHADOW WAS CAUGHT CHEATING IN BW! He still has a career! why is this? why is spades being put on the cross?
Because Spades was caught cheating in BW too.
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On June 05 2012 13:17 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:06 Swords wrote:On June 05 2012 13:03 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all? You answered your own question. So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything. eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit. I question whether people really want to know.
If there's anything this thread should tell you Mirhi it's that people really want to know.
Whether it's for justice or entertainment or curiosity is sort of up in the air.
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On June 05 2012 13:17 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:06 Swords wrote:On June 05 2012 13:03 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:51 SgtCoDFish wrote:On June 05 2012 12:49 Mirhi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:39 dyi wrote:On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common. Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation. Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally. If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all? You answered your own question. So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything. eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit. I question whether people really want to know.
now that you opened the door an inch people want it thrown wide open, better to have not said anything if you didnt want people to want more
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On June 05 2012 13:14 Freye wrote:
The biggest evidence to me, were the habits that were presented. Not looking at fog of war in "suspicious" games, not looking at scout, the way he placed the scans.
Also this was NOT a court trial, this was way more casual than that. If it were to go to "court" there would have to be done much more ANALYSIS (number crunching included), on behavioural patterns, reaction timings, action timings relative to known information. All of this comparing the "suspicious" games to the baseline "normal" games from him.
These are things that are VERY hard for him to control, and as such reveal much more deeply if he is behaving normally.
This should be what everyone should be talking about. The difference in camera movements in the Lucifron bo7 and the 50 game replay pack Spades gave are completely different. In the games with Lucifron he never clicks over the fog of war. He is "theoretically" using the mini map the entire time. Yet in the 50 game replay pack he views the fog of war numerous times each game and then sends his units there. The difference is uncanny. You don't play one way for 50 games and then decide to completely change mechanics for a bo7.
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On June 05 2012 13:18 zergtossy wrote:
LASTSHADOW WAS CAUGHT CHEATING IN BW! He still has a career! why is this? why is spades being put on the cross?
IF Spades was cheating (which there isn't definitive proof at this point in time), I don't know how you can say Spades is a victim here.
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Something tells me that even if his Windows Folders were looked at and a program called "Zynastor's MapHack 1.05" were installed, people like -CaRn would still be unconvinced. Bias exists on both sides of this argument. But, the evidence most definitely swings in one direction rather than the other. It's pretty obvious what direction that is.
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On June 05 2012 13:17 MorNin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 13:13 cArn- wrote:On June 05 2012 13:04 Balgrog wrote:On June 05 2012 12:44 cArn- wrote:
ok about the siege on the natural, he gets scanned, has mid watch tower, how the fuck can you not understand the very basic thinking that has been made there what the fuck seriously.
There is no reason to have your units at the front when the path to the front is seen by the watch tower, god that's the same thing as being prepared for drops becuase you have map control and can see frontal attacks come... I'm done with this, I feel really sad for anyone who can be convinced by this Illusion, TT1 (don't like him but it's true) and Catz are all more accomplished players than you are, so I wouldn't be calling these players idiots and what not. Bias still makes your argumentation invalid and stupid. When you try to make a point you don't use even things that hold no weight at all the way they did on Entombed. I saw the series vs Lucifron live, and seriously it was legit, I remember also facepalming at a lot of things he does, it's easy to just remember all the things that might look suspicious and ignore all the stupid things he did that lost him games. Take everything into account if you want to analyse things seriously, not just what you can make look suspicious and prove the point you want to make. Did you even watch the replays?? You are making yourself look like an idiot, specially by calling out players that actually watched the replays IN DETAIL. Go watch the replays and then explain to me how he does the Magic scans.. Go ahead ill wait..
I watched the replays, created a game, repeatedly scanned at the very edge of screen then moved camera away slightly, loaded up replay and VOILA I had "magic" scans in the replay, where I could barely see the scan in my locked on view.
These magic scans are probably b/c of the replay slightly changing camera, and are not proof...
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On June 05 2012 13:18 zergtossy wrote:
LASTSHADOW WAS CAUGHT CHEATING IN BW! He still has a career! why is this? why is spades being put on the cross?
You are really bad at trolling, Keep trying though buddy one day you'll make someone laugh!
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EPT
