07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 13:17 rhs408 wrote: *REGARDING THE "MAGIC SCANS"*
I just did a custom game to be sure of exactly where the center of the scan hits when you target the very top of the screen - YOU DO NOT SEE THE CENTER OF THE SCAN! IT COMES OUT EXACTLY LIKE HOW YOU SAW IN THE REPLAYS! TRY IT YOURSELF PLEASE!
I'm still on the fence though as to if he hacks or not, and I was always a fan... the quick siege and then unsiege was very, very strange, as well as not looking at the scouting scv... need some more explanation from Spades on those.
Someone else plz confirm.
1) Very important 2) I have no sc2 right now
I tried it myself, you do not see the middle of scan if you scan edge of screen.
The no scout scv is still really weird but that is good to know.
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
It really confuses me how someone involved enough in SC2 to have an ID on TeamLiquid wouldn't see why the community would have a stake in preventing cheaters.
Upholding the integrety of competition is an important element for spectators, which we all are.
There is a method to determine if he was using a maphack. Have him send his harddrive to someone else to be examined. He cannot hack with the program to do so, and he cannot permanently delete the program without wiping the entire drive (which is easily detectable).
In theory he could of been running the program from a different hard drive, I suppose...nevermind me
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations.
If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues.
There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
GL HF Spades.
cause blizzard acts so fast at banning bots/hackers.
It is Blizzards business only, not ours. If they want to leave them on there forever they can.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
This is really scary, I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who know shit is going down but are afraid of being the ones doing it.
When you think about it, it 's not surprising at all. Imagine you're at a team house surrounded by team mates playing in a Playhem tournament for 100$ or whatever which is being streamed with no delay. It's so easy for a team mate to just on the stream and start telling you what's going on. Every online tournament needs to start using significant delays. It's just madness that they don't and expect people not to cheat.
Yeah I was afraid of this, if the poorer Korean teams and player have the means to make money in online tournaments by cheating easily I can see the younger ones doing it. especially in a team house environment where it's easy to give into peer pressure.
I really doubt this happens in the Slayers/IM houses though.
And not just Koreans. Any foreigner who lives in a house with other gamers is going to be just as likely to do this. It just seems so silly to broadcast online tournaments live with no delay when there's money involved.
wow, mihri or whatevers comments are pretty eye opening. from cats stream or whatever, and the previous "evidence" i agree this seems blatantly obvious, but until its actually proven spades is still ok.
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
If Blizzard wishes to protect the integrity of its ladder it can do so with bans or demotions based on whatever evidence it wants (see the ToS if you like) but we don't have the right or even the responsibility to help them find and accuse these violations.
If a tournament wishes to eliminate misconduct in its games it can and may set the conditions under which a player may be disqualified. Again we don't have any right or responsibility to participate in deciding these issues.
There is a reason why courts do not conduct hearings on public internet forums. This and all threads like these should be IMMEDIATELY CLOSED due to the damage they do to the player regardless of whether they were in the wrong or not. Spades does not deserve his name dragged through the mud EVEN IF HE IS GUILTY!!!! Maphacking is at best a "crime" of an insecure person whose insecurities are already sufficient punishment.
GL HF Spades.
cause blizzard acts so fast at banning bots/hackers.
It is Blizzards business only, not ours. If they want to leave them on there forever they can.
yah cuz this has nothing to do with tournaments or prize moneyz.
On June 05 2012 13:20 algorithm0r wrote: It is sad that the TL community should decide these things. We the community have no stakes in this.
It really confuses me how someone involved enough in SC2 to have an ID on TeamLiquid wouldn't see why the community would have a stake in preventing cheaters.
Upholding the integrety of competition is an important element for spectators, which we all are.
We are only vilifying someone who does not have the opportunity to defend themselves in a free space. Further, we have no jurisdiction to apply punishment and our speculation and vilification are punishment themselves.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation.
Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally.
If you're going to be a whistleblower for this (which would likely lead to the end of live-streamed showmatches or tournaments where the players weren't inhouse and bring in pure replay-casted games) could you please make a thread about it and detail it all?
You answered your own question.
So you aren't going to make a thread about it? I understand not wanting to risk your career, which would obviously be put at stake with such a huge accusation, but if that stream cheating shit is true it really should be brought to light. Obviously you shouldn't take the hit for it, but I wish a number of people (since lots of people seem to know about it) would come out and lift the veil. Eventually someone's gonna come clean and by then it may just destroy everything.
eSports is just like real sports. There's girls, there's drugs, there's cheating, there are people 100% legit.
I question whether people really want to know.
Don't cop out with an attitude like this. Tell the community what it deserves to know.
We deserve to know and we want to know, but I fear if what Mirhi says is completely true, there might not be a scene left after the wake of the relevations. The scene is fragile, and dark clouds lie ahead in the horizon for the pro Sc2 scene.
On June 05 2012 13:22 zergtossy wrote: Um I wasnt trolling! Lastshadow has even admitted he was caught . learn your history
You are trolling because you couldn't be dumb enough to actually believe there are equivalencies between suspicions about Spades right now and anything to do with LastShadow. The only correlation is they both hacked in BW.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
This is really scary, I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who know shit is going down but are afraid of being the ones doing it.
When you think about it, it 's not surprising at all. Imagine you're at a team house surrounded by team mates playing in a Playhem tournament for 100$ or whatever which is being streamed with no delay. It's so easy for a team mate to just on the stream and start telling you what's going on. Every online tournament needs to start using significant delays. It's just madness that they don't and expect people not to cheat.
Yeah I was afraid of this, if the poorer Korean teams and player have the means to make money in online tournaments by cheating easily I can see the younger ones doing it. especially in a team house environment where it's easy to give into peer pressure.
I really doubt this happens in the Slayers/IM houses though.
And not just Koreans. Any foreigner who lives in a house with other gamers is going to be just as likely to do this. It just seems so silly to broadcast online tournaments live with no delay when there's money involved.
If anything, this is what needs to be the takeaway.
All online tournaments need to have a broadcast delay.
Why don't we watch his streamed games and see if he plays the same then compare results to the accused hacked matches. I also, and I'm sure the pro's feel the same way, encourage anyone that might have a suspicious replay to come forward. Livelihood's are at stake here and we must reach a conclusion quickly, we don't want a smear/bullying campaign on our hands.
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