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On May 11 2012 02:06 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:39 Font wrote:
I dont know where there is such a huge discussion about this. I dont even play starcraft 2 and I can see exacly why they did this. Think of a 2 rax opening/bunker rush
This costs nothing to terran, they will bring back the racks and salvage the bunker. Terrran is guaranteed to do damage to zerg`s economy with that opening wether its the zerg pulling drones or you getting the hatchery. By making the range bigger for queens it makes it easier for them to stop that bunker from getting up or those marines just killing you straight up.
Starcraft isnt a game meant to end in 5 mins but mid to late game. Terran is not guaranteed to kill even a single drone with a 2rax. If the 2rax does not kill a single drone you can view the Terran behind in the sense they cannot contain creep like hellions would.
Actually they still could do so until speed finishes upgrading with marines. 5 - 6 marines will always be cost effective against slow lings.
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On May 11 2012 02:03 kyserbro wrote:
If Zerg gets these game changing buffs then I want Reaper speed before fact, earlier stim and rax build time, old blue flame damage and bunker salvage at 100 minerals back. Oh and marine range because now the queen has the same range as marines now. I really REALLY hate whining about balance but I think Zerg is imba and the game is now broken. Zerg is better than both Terran and Protoss ever since the infestor buff. Zerg is also the easiest race to play macro and micro wise.
What? Nice balance whine you got there. While you're at it, please bring back 2 armor 1 supply roaches =D
Think before you post.
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whyyyyy does queen range have to increase, I thought Z could defend against stuff like 2rax just fine as maps have gotten bigger...
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On May 11 2012 02:03 kyserbro wrote:
If Zerg gets these game changing buffs then I want Reaper speed before fact, earlier stim and rax build time, old blue flame damage and bunker salvage at 100 minerals back. Oh and marine range because now the queen has the same range as marines now. I really REALLY hate whining about balance but I think Zerg is imba and the game is now broken. Zerg is better than both Terran and Protoss ever since the infestor buff. Zerg is also the easiest race to play macro and micro wise.
Really? I'm sorry but if zerg is so imba then how come even DRG, considered the best zerg is in code a? and there are no zergs at all in the top 8 of gsl? Also you obviously have not played the current mid to late game ZvP lol, it is so hard for zerg to beat a toss. However i thought that the ZvT was fairly balanced, no one does reaper anyways now and queens wont charge out off creep after hellions. This change wont change the map control that terran has early game from reactor hellion.
All in all i actually love these buffs, though i really dont see the queen range changing much of the early game. Hellions will still at my door and if my queens run out they can run in still. ZvZ queens really only fight zerglings at the ramp, and not a lot of ZvP happens with the queens since the current strategy is about the 3 base vs FFE. The only change is maybe a queen can kill a probe that runs by it with the extra hit or so, or may get another hit or so vs hellions that are running by.
The overlord speed is really what i'm looking forward to, from what i played on the antiga is that ovies can now outrun queens off creep and can scout a terran/toss a bit better (though they may just start putting 2 marines at the edges to stop it lol)
And the observer change i dont really know how that will change anything since i am a zerg player lol.
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On May 11 2012 02:14 UltiBahamut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 02:03 kyserbro wrote:
If Zerg gets these game changing buffs then I want Reaper speed before fact, earlier stim and rax build time, old blue flame damage and bunker salvage at 100 minerals back. Oh and marine range because now the queen has the same range as marines now. I really REALLY hate whining about balance but I think Zerg is imba and the game is now broken. Zerg is better than both Terran and Protoss ever since the infestor buff. Zerg is also the easiest race to play macro and micro wise. Really? I'm sorry but if zerg is so imba then how come even DRG, considered the best zerg is in code a? and there are no zergs at all in the top 8 of gsl? Also you obviously have not played the current mid to late game ZvP lol, it is so hard for zerg to beat a toss. However i thought that the ZvT was fairly balanced, no one does reaper anyways now and queens wont charge out off creep after hellions. This change wont change the map control that terran has early game from reactor hellion. All in all i actually love these buffs, though i really dont see the queen range changing much of the early game. Hellions will still at my door and if my queens run out they can run in still. ZvZ queens really only fight zerglings at the ramp, and not a lot of ZvP happens with the queens since the current strategy is about the 3 base vs FFE. The only change is maybe a queen can kill a probe that runs by it with the extra hit or so, or may get another hit or so vs hellions that are running by. The overlord speed is really what i'm looking forward to, from what i played on the antiga is that ovies can now outrun queens off creep and can scout a terran/toss a bit better (though they may just start putting 2 marines at the edges to stop it lol) And the observer change i dont really know how that will change anything since i am a zerg player lol.
Yes, try to argue with a troll. That will work well for you. =(
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United States7166 Posts
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On May 11 2012 02:06 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 01:39 Font wrote:
I dont know where there is such a huge discussion about this. I dont even play starcraft 2 and I can see exacly why they did this. Think of a 2 rax opening/bunker rush
This costs nothing to terran, they will bring back the racks and salvage the bunker. Terrran is guaranteed to do damage to zerg`s economy with that opening wether its the zerg pulling drones or you getting the hatchery. By making the range bigger for queens it makes it easier for them to stop that bunker from getting up or those marines just killing you straight up.
Starcraft isnt a game meant to end in 5 mins but mid to late game. Terran is not guaranteed to kill even a single drone with a 2rax. If the 2rax does not kill a single drone you can view the Terran behind in the sense they cannot contain creep like hellions would.
If a baneling bust does not kill a single SCV you can view the Zerg as behind.
What's your point? Obviously any pressure build that fails to put any pressure on will leave the user behind.
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Seems like a solid patch overall. Small-ish tweaks....not too sold on queen range, but we shall see.
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We're talking about forums here, logic flies out the window once you talk about balance changes.
So let's just all agree that this is going to make Zerg imba, shift the win rates of ZvT to 80% and PvT to 90%?
So-called theorycraft experts who haven't even played one game with the new changes.
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On May 11 2012 02:14 LuckyFool wrote:whyyyyy does queen range have to increase, I thought Z could defend against stuff like 2rax just fine as maps have gotten bigger...
They're planning on bringing back Steppes of War, you didn't hear?
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On May 10 2012 11:22 Bonkerz wrote:
No Hope for terran tvp thanks blizz!
Why this guy was banned for post this ?
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On May 11 2012 02:14 LuckyFool wrote:whyyyyy does queen range have to increase, I thought Z could defend against stuff like 2rax just fine as maps have gotten bigger...
Go watch MLG Winter Arena Finals.
Then go watch MLG Winter Championship Finals.
There's absolutely no way right now for a Zerg to know if the 2 rax is an all-in or a triple orbital expand.
And if the Terran decides to bitbybit bunker rush...there's not a lot zerg can do that early on.
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Patch is beeing applied now to US
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On May 11 2012 02:14 UltiBahamut wrote:
...If Zerg gets these game changing....The overlord speed is really what i'm looking forward to, from what i played on the antiga is that ovies can now outrun queens off creep and can scout a terran/toss a bit better (though they may just start putting 2 marines at the edges to stop it lol)...
It's much worse for the Terran than you think, specially for those that rely on allin coinflips, like the delayed mass scv/marine allin, 4-5 barrack cheese, 2 factorie hellions, two starport banshee or super early 1 port banshee etc. All these strats relies on that Terran can kill any scouting without sacrificing too much for defense.
Now with this change Terran actually has to make an investment if he is to deny a scouting Zerg. 1 or 2 marines won't cut it anymore since the overlord still will get into the base before he dies, and if the zerg decides to send it 2 overlords the second overlord will not only scout the entire base but also survive to the other side.
If the Terran wishes to do these kinds of strats they now have to make much more marines. This at the very least will significantly delay all above allins, some allins won't even be doable since they will be too late. And if you see a Terran that has 4-5 marines desperately trying to kill your scouting overlords you know he is doing something fishy. Earlier problems was that whatever Terran did, might it be early expansion, normal gameplay or cheese all he had to do was to make a marine so you never knew what hell he was doing.
Now if the guy has 4-5 marines running around off the edges killing overlords you know what he is doing, it certainly isn't a early expansion since he has too many marines and can't afford a CC, nor is it a normal gameplay since he more likely would use his army for scouting/being active on the map or invested more in tech etc. The overlord change will be amazing.
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On May 11 2012 02:24 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 02:14 LuckyFool wrote:whyyyyy does queen range have to increase, I thought Z could defend against stuff like 2rax just fine as maps have gotten bigger... They're planning on bringing back Steppes of War, you didn't hear?
Loooooooooooved Steppes man, loved it
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how long until the patch is live at the US server?
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On May 11 2012 02:26 Razzor wrote:Why this guy was banned for post this ?
Because the only buff toss got was a 10 second build buff for the observer. Balance whine = ban
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All great decisions by Bizzard in my opinion.
The extra 50 queen energy was fun to try, but seemed a bit too aggressive of a change, so I welcome the less severe 5 queen range. Hellions are still viable, just a little harder to deny creep tumors though (depending on the number of hellions), but drone roasting is still drone roasting without much change.
As far as reapers go, reapers have jetpacks allowing them to jump on and off cliffs and so you can still scout just as well and pick off drones, just run in at a reasonable angle and not be as ballsy as current terrans are. Also, queens are still extremely slow off creep. Also a reaper inside a bunker still rapes queens. Not so bad for a cheap unit. Banshee followups to wounded queens very powerful as well.
I think overall the queens needed a little something, and this is a great start (though I still don't see my planetary hatchery any time soon).
moxieCB
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The author vastly overestimates MULEs. The queen range will mean, that the queen can push the hellions back farther and easier, because she deals more damage. This allows either for a quicker push out with the spine or for the same play between queens/spines and hellions with less resource investment from the Zerg side.
Nothing more, but also nothing less. It's not the end of hellion builds, but it weakens them. Plus I didn't see the need for weakening hellion builds as it usually lead to a standard balanced mid-game if both sides played their cards right.
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On May 11 2012 02:46 SpeCtor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 02:26 Razzor wrote:On May 10 2012 11:22 Bonkerz wrote:
No Hope for terran tvp thanks blizz! Why this guy was banned for post this ? Because the only buff toss got was a 10 second build buff for the observer. Balance whine = ban
The 12-observer timing push will come a couple of minutes earlier though, so I can see his frustration.
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EPT
