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On May 31 2012 21:41 AxionSteel wrote:The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination  Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous.
aww vikings are pretty good, just extremely heavy on micro and a moving them is even worse then a moving marines. But when they are supposed to be build as a conter, they kinda fail for the same reason bcs and carrier aren't that badass lategame. They need to be atleast even on upgrades. And throwing clumped 0/0 vikings against 2/2 colossus or broodlords with spell caster support is not really cost effective.
Anyway i wonder why there are so much complains about the marines. I saw zerg go ling only all the time to jump into their t3 pretty fast, or toss goes chargelot heavy as well and just throws in a few support units. And while zerg and toss use mostly the same upgrades, terran even needs to switch up the whole production + addons + upgrades. So no wonder they stick with marines the only unit that can easily die thanks to mules and reactor. Also the only real good anti air unit without committing to much to anti air only.
Specialized Units are nice and everything, but if the opponent switches up their whole army faster then you can even adapt, then they won't help you alot. Though its mostly lack of control, that kills a terran as they lose one of their special unit types completely and thanks to the expensive and time consuming to build production facilities won't be able to reproduce till the opponent took advantage of that.
The Reaper for example can easily replace the marine in the lategame, even the same upgrades and way better in kiting, survivability and damage against light, then the marine. But you have to double your rackscount and add techlabs and even then the reaper reproduction would be slow.
Personally i stick with one tech as terran, the opponent has everything they use 3/3 by the time i reach 3/3 for this special tech. And fighting with 0/0 is not an option against 3/3 units even if your units would beat them up easily on even upgrades.
The exception is if the duration goes above the 30 minute mark, at this point i can have more then one tech at 3/3 and start switching up my army and this is the point where the other races get problems.
I am curious to see though, when zerg players will use their over supply mechanic, like terrans uses their orbitals or toss uses their warp gates.
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On May 31 2012 23:58 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:41 AxionSteel wrote:The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous. aww vikings are pretty good, just extremely heavy on micro and a moving them is even worse then a moving marines. But when they are supposed to be build as a conter, they kinda fail for the same reason bcs and carrier aren't that badass lategame. They need to be atleast even on upgrades. And throwing clumped 0/0 vikings against 2/2 colossus or broodlords with spell caster support is not really cost effective. .
Well corruptors destroy them, combined with fungal, like you said they are extremely hard to micro to avoid corruptors and infestors and the funny thing is, lots of zergs these days are bringing a bunch of queens with their "Death ball" and they heal the brood lords before the vikings can even kill them, then they eventually get fungaled or just owned by corruptors anyway , i think they're awful in general.
The seemingly obvious unit that could help in this scenario are ghosts, to emp the infestors and queens, but whenever you see that suggested to professional terrans they say ghosts are useless vs zerg, so I dunno tbh!
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On June 01 2012 01:02 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 23:58 FeyFey wrote:On May 31 2012 21:41 AxionSteel wrote:The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous. aww vikings are pretty good, just extremely heavy on micro and a moving them is even worse then a moving marines. But when they are supposed to be build as a conter, they kinda fail for the same reason bcs and carrier aren't that badass lategame. They need to be atleast even on upgrades. And throwing clumped 0/0 vikings against 2/2 colossus or broodlords with spell caster support is not really cost effective. . Well corruptors destroy them, combined with fungal, like you said they are extremely hard to micro to avoid corruptors and infestors and the funny thing is, lots of zergs these days are bringing a bunch of queens with their "Death ball" and they heal the brood lords before the vikings can even kill them, then they eventually get fungaled or just owned by corruptors anyway , i think they're awful in general. The seemingly obvious unit that could help in this scenario are ghosts, to emp the infestors and queens, but whenever you see that suggested to professional terrans they say ghosts are useless vs zerg, so I dunno tbh!
Ghosts went from an all-around useful unit to something that was specialised to counter infestors. The issue is that the cost of the ghosts is way too expensive for what they do in tvz. You get a handful of ghosts but you need to kill/EMP the infestors before they can fungal your vikings. If the infestors get off two good fungals in a crucial battle the zerg is going to win it, regardless of if you EMP the rest of the infestors or not. Especially if the infestors hit your vikings. Added to this, ghosts don't even do anything against the rest of the zerg arsenal, and if you overcommit on ghosts you'll get rolled. If you want to handle mass infestor play, which is good against everything terran can do, you'll need a shitton of ghosts, who are only good against infestors and useless against everything else, whereas before they were good against brood lords. Blizzard doesn't seem to mind infestors being useful against everything that terran has, but when ghosts can work against spell casters and against siege units, ghosts are too strong.
You're probably better off trying to snipe infestors with marauders/tanks cost/food efficiency-wise over slowing your army down and sinking gas into ghosts just for the sake of getting infestors.
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On June 01 2012 03:46 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:02 AxionSteel wrote:On May 31 2012 23:58 FeyFey wrote:On May 31 2012 21:41 AxionSteel wrote:The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous. aww vikings are pretty good, just extremely heavy on micro and a moving them is even worse then a moving marines. But when they are supposed to be build as a conter, they kinda fail for the same reason bcs and carrier aren't that badass lategame. They need to be atleast even on upgrades. And throwing clumped 0/0 vikings against 2/2 colossus or broodlords with spell caster support is not really cost effective. . Well corruptors destroy them, combined with fungal, like you said they are extremely hard to micro to avoid corruptors and infestors and the funny thing is, lots of zergs these days are bringing a bunch of queens with their "Death ball" and they heal the brood lords before the vikings can even kill them, then they eventually get fungaled or just owned by corruptors anyway , i think they're awful in general. The seemingly obvious unit that could help in this scenario are ghosts, to emp the infestors and queens, but whenever you see that suggested to professional terrans they say ghosts are useless vs zerg, so I dunno tbh! Ghosts went from an all-around useful unit to something that was specialised to counter infestors. The issue is that the cost of the ghosts is way too expensive for what they do in tvz. You get a handful of ghosts but you need to kill/EMP the infestors before they can fungal your vikings. If the infestors get off two good fungals in a crucial battle the zerg is going to win it, regardless of if you EMP the rest of the infestors or not. Especially if the infestors hit your vikings. Added to this, ghosts don't even do anything against the rest of the zerg arsenal, and if you overcommit on ghosts you'll get rolled. If you want to handle mass infestor play, which is good against everything terran can do, you'll need a shitton of ghosts, who are only good against infestors and useless against everything else, whereas before they were good against brood lords. Blizzard doesn't seem to mind infestors being useful against everything that terran has, but when ghosts can work against spell casters and against siege units, ghosts are too strong. You're probably better off trying to snipe infestors with marauders/tanks cost/food efficiency-wise over slowing your army down and sinking gas into ghosts just for the sake of getting infestors.
Tanks are the answer to infestors, not ghosts, not anymore at least. Once they stop making infestors and switch to broods or ultras your ghosts are a huge waste of resources and supply
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On June 01 2012 03:46 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:02 AxionSteel wrote:On May 31 2012 23:58 FeyFey wrote:On May 31 2012 21:41 AxionSteel wrote:The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous. aww vikings are pretty good, just extremely heavy on micro and a moving them is even worse then a moving marines. But when they are supposed to be build as a conter, they kinda fail for the same reason bcs and carrier aren't that badass lategame. They need to be atleast even on upgrades. And throwing clumped 0/0 vikings against 2/2 colossus or broodlords with spell caster support is not really cost effective. . Well corruptors destroy them, combined with fungal, like you said they are extremely hard to micro to avoid corruptors and infestors and the funny thing is, lots of zergs these days are bringing a bunch of queens with their "Death ball" and they heal the brood lords before the vikings can even kill them, then they eventually get fungaled or just owned by corruptors anyway , i think they're awful in general. The seemingly obvious unit that could help in this scenario are ghosts, to emp the infestors and queens, but whenever you see that suggested to professional terrans they say ghosts are useless vs zerg, so I dunno tbh! Ghosts went from an all-around useful unit to something that was specialised to counter infestors. The issue is that the cost of the ghosts is way too expensive for what they do in tvz. You get a handful of ghosts but you need to kill/EMP the infestors before they can fungal your vikings. If the infestors get off two good fungals in a crucial battle the zerg is going to win it, regardless of if you EMP the rest of the infestors or not. Especially if the infestors hit your vikings. Added to this, ghosts don't even do anything against the rest of the zerg arsenal, and if you overcommit on ghosts you'll get rolled. If you want to handle mass infestor play, which is good against everything terran can do, you'll need a shitton of ghosts, who are only good against infestors and useless against everything else, whereas before they were good against brood lords. Blizzard doesn't seem to mind infestors being useful against everything that terran has, but when ghosts can work against spell casters and against siege units, ghosts are too strong. You're probably better off trying to snipe infestors with marauders/tanks cost/food efficiency-wise over slowing your army down and sinking gas into ghosts just for the sake of getting infestors.
I feel like QXC is the only honest professional Terran on the scene right now.
Pre ghost nerf:
When asked "have you tried raven?"
he replied: "no why should I? ghosts are better."
Recently on State of the Game Episode 69
QXC stated no Terran ever aims for the late game because there's no reason to, since the early game and midgame is so much stronger than the other two races.
I feel that Terrans simply have not yet developed any real lategame strategy besides mass ghosts simply because there's no real reason to. The same way Warp Gate has stunt the growth of protoss strategies into 1 or 2 base all-ins, the MMM ball has stunt the development of Terrans.
What I really want to see from Terrans in lategame TvZ is ghost-mech. The only thing that can stop hard mech (thors/tanks) are broodlords. They can still be sniped by ghosts. The ghost unit isn't suppose to counter everything, but it still does decently well against both broodlords and infestors.
Also, ravens banshees mass marines is obnoxiously hard to deal with as Zerg.
As for TvP, I would like to see more people experiment with battlecruisers. IMMVP said he wins 80% of the time in TvP using cruisers. The only reason why he lost game 5 of the GSL finals was because mamaship caught him by surprise in a flank from the high ground position.
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On May 31 2012 21:01 teamhozac wrote:
The reason why marines are used so often is because they are the only unit we have that isnt one dimensional.
Every unit of every race of both BW and SC2 is one-dimensional except for the SC2 marine. Specialized units make for a better game than having a single all-star unit.
On May 31 2012 21:01 teamhozac wrote:
Factory units become pretty useless after the midgame (mostly in TvP) same with our air units, except maybe for some sort of weird BC transition, but how often do you see that? And is it even viable?
Well, duh, that's why the marine should be nerfed while other things should be buffed, allowing for all sorts of viable builds instead of only marine-centric builds.
On May 31 2012 21:01 teamhozac wrote:
You can hate the marine all you want but the fact remains that it is really our best unit, and no it is not overpowered.
The fact that it's your best unit is a pretty obvious indicator that it's overpowered. Terran should have a lot of viable units, instead of a single overpowered unit and a bunch of underpowered/support units.
On May 31 2012 21:01 teamhozac wrote:
Without really good micro, marine heavy armies melt to a variety of things, fungal, baneling, colossus, psi storm, siege tanks, the list goes on. The answer is NOT to nerf the marine, that is stupid.
You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit.
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You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit.
TBH, to any zergs saying that a single unit is too versatile and all-around good, I must say take a look at the infestor.
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On June 01 2012 04:04 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:46 Dalavita wrote:On June 01 2012 01:02 AxionSteel wrote:On May 31 2012 23:58 FeyFey wrote:On May 31 2012 21:41 AxionSteel wrote:The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous. aww vikings are pretty good, just extremely heavy on micro and a moving them is even worse then a moving marines. But when they are supposed to be build as a conter, they kinda fail for the same reason bcs and carrier aren't that badass lategame. They need to be atleast even on upgrades. And throwing clumped 0/0 vikings against 2/2 colossus or broodlords with spell caster support is not really cost effective. . Well corruptors destroy them, combined with fungal, like you said they are extremely hard to micro to avoid corruptors and infestors and the funny thing is, lots of zergs these days are bringing a bunch of queens with their "Death ball" and they heal the brood lords before the vikings can even kill them, then they eventually get fungaled or just owned by corruptors anyway , i think they're awful in general. The seemingly obvious unit that could help in this scenario are ghosts, to emp the infestors and queens, but whenever you see that suggested to professional terrans they say ghosts are useless vs zerg, so I dunno tbh! Ghosts went from an all-around useful unit to something that was specialised to counter infestors. The issue is that the cost of the ghosts is way too expensive for what they do in tvz. You get a handful of ghosts but you need to kill/EMP the infestors before they can fungal your vikings. If the infestors get off two good fungals in a crucial battle the zerg is going to win it, regardless of if you EMP the rest of the infestors or not. Especially if the infestors hit your vikings. Added to this, ghosts don't even do anything against the rest of the zerg arsenal, and if you overcommit on ghosts you'll get rolled. If you want to handle mass infestor play, which is good against everything terran can do, you'll need a shitton of ghosts, who are only good against infestors and useless against everything else, whereas before they were good against brood lords. Blizzard doesn't seem to mind infestors being useful against everything that terran has, but when ghosts can work against spell casters and against siege units, ghosts are too strong. You're probably better off trying to snipe infestors with marauders/tanks cost/food efficiency-wise over slowing your army down and sinking gas into ghosts just for the sake of getting infestors. Tanks are the answer to infestors, not ghosts, not anymore at least. Once they stop making infestors and switch to broods or ultras your ghosts are a huge waste of resources and supply
zerg will always have infestors late game.
Marauders, marine, tanks medivac do very well against pure ultra, bane and lings.
Without fungal, vikings and marines will kill broodlords very easily.
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The fact that it's your best unit is a pretty obvious indicator that it's overpowered. Terran should have a lot of viable units, instead of a single overpowered unit and a bunch of underpowered/support units.
I would be down for this. Terran does need better support units and if we got those then marines wouldnt need to be used much. You don't call a unit overpowered because people rely on it. Besides, we should just do the Dustin Browder balance method which is look at the MMR and adjust from that because it takes no in-depth analysis at all herp derp.
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My problem with TvZ after this patch is that it makes queens essentially the go-to defensive unit. There's absolutely no reason to make more than one spine crawler and you don't even need roaches anymore against hellion openers, because queens are just so good against terran's early aggression. And then, as it goes to lategame, queens are still immensely valuable because they are the macro mechanics for Zerg, and don't lose viability.
Also, fungal being so strong in all situations is... frustrating, to say the least :|
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Terran only really needs versatile unit for factory and/or starport so that mech and/or sky terran would work better when you transition into it or just straight up start with it as there would be a unit that could take marines place.
Terran unit composition must be as versatile as possible to be able to deal with other races far better tech switching due to their macro mechanics. So I think it will be much better to focus on making couple of that kind of units for terran and leave the rest as specialized/support units.
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You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit.
I understand what youre saying, but I don't even really use the marine except early game so I don't really care tbh, go ahead and nerf it. But then what? If youre nerfing the marine so people use other terran units you have to actually have useful terran units, as it stands, our Tier 3 is complete garbage
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I don't know what Blizzard is doing, but every single terran I know is asking for a broodlord infestor nerf. The composition is way too cost efficient. I also saw protoss players complain about it. Is there a reason that we are seeing 0 changes atm? TvP and TvZ lategame are a complete joke, and it's damn hard (read: almost impossible when the opponent doesn't fuck up) to do damage in the midgame. I really wonder what blizzard is waiting for...
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On June 02 2012 03:37 Snowbear wrote:
I don't know what Blizzard is doing, but every single terran I know is asking for a broodlord infestor nerf.
Every Protoss is asking for it, too. Now that players are actually good enough to split their BLs against Motherships, the lategame is actually pretty much unwinnable unless the Zerg messes up.
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On June 02 2012 03:40 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 03:37 Snowbear wrote:
I don't know what Blizzard is doing, but every single terran I know is asking for a broodlord infestor nerf. Every Protoss is asking for it, too. Now that players are actually good enough to split their BLs against Motherships, the lategame is actually pretty much unwinnable unless the Zerg messes up.
Well yeah.. It also creates those boring games, like thorzain vs sheth on metropolis. The terran can't really attack into it, and has to play very defensive with ravens, tanks and ghosts.
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On June 02 2012 03:37 Snowbear wrote:
I don't know what Blizzard is doing, but every single terran I know is asking for a broodlord infestor nerf. The composition is way too cost efficient. I also saw protoss players complain about it. Is there a reason that we are seeing 0 changes atm? TvP and TvZ lategame are a complete joke, and it's damn hard (read: almost impossible when the opponent doesn't fuck up) to do damage in the midgame. I really wonder what blizzard is waiting for...
There is absolutely no way zerg will receive any nerfs until AFTER HotS release, there is no way they will risk losing zerg players prior to releasing a "zerg expansion" just wont happen...
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Remember when I told you guys this fanclub is a bad idea?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284293
On December 09 2011 11:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I can't help but feel that by making threads like these, you undermine any struggles terrans have in general.
The developers will never make any positive patches to help out terrans if you stick out your tongue and a middle finger.
This thread is childish and inappropriate for the growth and balance of the game.
Yea, now nobody takes Terran's woes seriously...
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On June 02 2012 03:40 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 03:37 Snowbear wrote:
I don't know what Blizzard is doing, but every single terran I know is asking for a broodlord infestor nerf. Every Protoss is asking for it, too. Now that players are actually good enough to split their BLs against Motherships, the lategame is actually pretty much unwinnable unless the Zerg messes up.
The problem with saying this is that it can also swing HUGELY the other way. If you get caught not looking at your army for 2 seconds, one lucky vortex ends the game. It's just gimmicky stuff like this that needs to be removed from the game, same with fungal. I'm high master zerg and honestly if I catch a terran once in the midgame where he doesn't perfectly split all his units up, it's one fungal gg all his marines and I lost like 5 lings in the process.
It's bad both ways right now.
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On June 01 2012 12:21 Giggl3s wrote:Show nested quote +You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit. TBH, to any zergs saying that a single unit is too versatile and all-around good, I must say take a look at the infestor.
Fungal's root effect is pretty overpowered. It should have been left at 36 damage and changed to decrease movement and attack speed by 25% instead of rooting affected units.
That said, the infestor's energy-dependent effectiveness is nothing compared to the marine, especially once you factor in costs.
On June 02 2012 03:31 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit. I understand what youre saying, but I don't even really use the marine except early game so I don't really care tbh, go ahead and nerf it. But then what? If youre nerfing the marine so people use other terran units you have to actually have useful terran units, as it stands, our Tier 3 is complete garbage
Well, duh, that's why I've been constantly advocating not just a nerf to marines, but buffs to everything else Terran has.
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On June 02 2012 19:56 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 12:21 Giggl3s wrote:You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit. TBH, to any zergs saying that a single unit is too versatile and all-around good, I must say take a look at the infestor. Fungal's root effect is pretty overpowered. It should have been left at 36 damage and changed to decrease movement and attack speed by 25% instead of rooting affected units. That said, the infestor's energy-dependent effectiveness is nothing compared to the marine, especially once you factor in costs. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 03:31 teamhozac wrote:You're completely missing the actual problem. The fact that you need to micro the marine doesn't change the problem that far too much of Terran's power is invested in a single unit. I understand what youre saying, but I don't even really use the marine except early game so I don't really care tbh, go ahead and nerf it. But then what? If youre nerfing the marine so people use other terran units you have to actually have useful terran units, as it stands, our Tier 3 is complete garbage Well, duh, that's why I've been constantly advocating not just a nerf to marines, but buffs to everything else Terran has.
The problem with any significant buffs to say for example thors, is it will make them extremely effective early game with 7-8 scvs repairing, if rushed, it will pretty much steamroll anything... I think we just need some new fucking units
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EPT
