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On May 30 2012 01:28 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 01:17 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 30 2012 01:14 00Zarathustra wrote:On May 30 2012 00:55 Garmer wrote:On May 30 2012 00:42 tranmillitary wrote:
Most of the people here that are crying... are crying because they can't get into a higher league. IT'S NOT THE RACE, IT'S YOU. If it's so easy to get to GM with Toss or Zerg, THAN DO IT. Why stick to Terran if they suck so bad??
People think they're better than they really are. I'm a masters player on NA and i know that's my skill set. I know i'm not good enough for GM. Some people are are delusional. Switch to another race if you think it's so imbalance. Chances are that you will be in the same division no matter what race you are.
Bad game design?? Show me one game with better game design. why don't you quit SC2 and play whatever game is so much better than SC2. No one is forcing anyone here to play SC2. So annoying with so many whiners on this forum. Show me one game with better game designseriously? BROOD WAR!!!! And yes I still play BW and I would like to keep watching BW but they are taking away my pro gamers.  I also play SC2 but it is not as fun because of this bad game design. I can say the same about watching pro SC2. Now name a game not made by Blizzard, lmao. I prefer BW myself, but SC2 is a better suited eSport than BW, you need to keep a casual audience, BW doesn't do that. Command and Conquer Generals before Zero Hour and after all those patches to nerf USA's airforce. That was pretty balanced.
Sorry but that game (in the state you are referring to) does not exist. Simply put, there are very few games that were balanced. If you put another criteria on there, popular, then no other games exist besides BW.
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On May 30 2012 03:37 Operations wrote:
How about giving the reapers 3 mines? ghosts and marines are already ripped off bw so why not go all the way with it
i love this idea, wonder how it would work with the creep though. Would it deny it ? The "problem" is that in the current metagame, terrans spend more time killing tumors than zerg units :D so if zergs had to do the same with mines, the matchup would look like a "hide and seek" game.
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reapers with spider mines would be a cool idea ,indeed, they should test this instead of making a missile launcher V4 that outrange siege tank...
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To the people coming here being snide about "people whining about marines after 2 years": Try to understand that it is more a discussion about bad game design, and not marines being overpowered. Or, marines can be considered OP, but everything else Terran has is nerfed to compensate for this.
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On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
The whole Terran Race is designed to have core units and support units around them. Terran has the most expensive inflexible production and upgrade structure. If a Terran commits to bio he has to play bio. Bio Units need to be as strong as they are to make bionic play possible and to defend at the early state.
Fail. None of this argument holds up in light of BW, where the production/upgrade structure worked the same way, and worked just fine without bio being "as strong as possible". Terran doesn't have a problem defending either.
It says a lot about Terran players when they think that their primary composition should be "as strong as possible".
On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
You could for example easily buff mech play in TvP without destroying the balance of the whole match up, as long as the buff effects the game only after the terran has really committed to mech. And TvP is really the only match up where the Terran has to play bio centric. In TvT and TvZ Mech and Bio centric play is possible. IMHO the only reason why Terran has to play marine heavy bio in TvP right now is the Chargelot. Marines are simply the only unit that can deal with chargelots in a timely manner.
Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units.
On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
And i don`t get why sunprince is talking about fixing SC2. SC2 is fine. The balance is very close. And thats a lot if you think about how very different the Races are designed. Sure i would also like to see some currently underused units made useful, but the core of the game is fine. Just because SC2 is different from SCBW does not mean its worse.
Just because win percentages are close doesn't mean a game is well-designed. We've known this since the beginning of SC2.
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On May 30 2012 07:05 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
The whole Terran Race is designed to have core units and support units around them. Terran has the most expensive inflexible production and upgrade structure. If a Terran commits to bio he has to play bio. Bio Units need to be as strong as they are to make bionic play possible and to defend at the early state. Fail. None of this argument holds up in light of BW, where the production/upgrade structure worked the same way, and worked just fine without bio being "as strong as possible". Terran doesn't have a problem defending either. It says a lot about Terran players when they think that their primary composition should be "as strong as possible". Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
You could for example easily buff mech play in TvP without destroying the balance of the whole match up, as long as the buff effects the game only after the terran has really committed to mech. And TvP is really the only match up where the Terran has to play bio centric. In TvT and TvZ Mech and Bio centric play is possible. IMHO the only reason why Terran has to play marine heavy bio in TvP right now is the Chargelot. Marines are simply the only unit that can deal with chargelots in a timely manner. Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
And i don`t get why sunprince is talking about fixing SC2. SC2 is fine. The balance is very close. And thats a lot if you think about how very different the Races are designed. Sure i would also like to see some currently underused units made useful, but the core of the game is fine. Just because SC2 is different from SCBW does not mean its worse.
Just because win percentages are close doesn't mean a game is well-designed. We've known this since the beginning of SC2.
That is the only true tangible form of balance. The rest is just theory.
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On May 30 2012 07:06 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 07:05 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
The whole Terran Race is designed to have core units and support units around them. Terran has the most expensive inflexible production and upgrade structure. If a Terran commits to bio he has to play bio. Bio Units need to be as strong as they are to make bionic play possible and to defend at the early state. Fail. None of this argument holds up in light of BW, where the production/upgrade structure worked the same way, and worked just fine without bio being "as strong as possible". Terran doesn't have a problem defending either. It says a lot about Terran players when they think that their primary composition should be "as strong as possible". On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
You could for example easily buff mech play in TvP without destroying the balance of the whole match up, as long as the buff effects the game only after the terran has really committed to mech. And TvP is really the only match up where the Terran has to play bio centric. In TvT and TvZ Mech and Bio centric play is possible. IMHO the only reason why Terran has to play marine heavy bio in TvP right now is the Chargelot. Marines are simply the only unit that can deal with chargelots in a timely manner. Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units. On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
And i don`t get why sunprince is talking about fixing SC2. SC2 is fine. The balance is very close. And thats a lot if you think about how very different the Races are designed. Sure i would also like to see some currently underused units made useful, but the core of the game is fine. Just because SC2 is different from SCBW does not mean its worse.
Just because win percentages are close doesn't mean a game is well-designed. We've known this since the beginning of SC2. That is the only true tangible form of balance. The rest is just theory.
Well-designed ≠ balanced. Rock-paper-scissors is perfectly balanced. That doesn't mean it's a well-designed game. Similarly, I'm not arguing that SC2 isn't balanced. The detailed ELOs of the top professional players shows it's pretty close.
However, SC2 could be a better game. A game where a larger variety of strategies, builds, and compositions are available to every race. A game where every Zerg matchup isn't "cripple/kill Zerg early/mid-game or lose automatically to its exponential economy". A game where Terran is about countering with its specialized units, instead of using a marine that's good against almost everything. A game where Protoss has more options than 200/200 deathballs, and the answer to colossi isn't more colossi.
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On May 30 2012 07:05 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
The whole Terran Race is designed to have core units and support units around them. Terran has the most expensive inflexible production and upgrade structure. If a Terran commits to bio he has to play bio. Bio Units need to be as strong as they are to make bionic play possible and to defend at the early state. Fail. None of this argument holds up in light of BW, where the production/upgrade structure worked the same way, and worked just fine without bio being "as strong as possible". Terran doesn't have a problem defending either. It says a lot about Terran players when they think that their primary composition should be "as strong as possible". Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
You could for example easily buff mech play in TvP without destroying the balance of the whole match up, as long as the buff effects the game only after the terran has really committed to mech. And TvP is really the only match up where the Terran has to play bio centric. In TvT and TvZ Mech and Bio centric play is possible. IMHO the only reason why Terran has to play marine heavy bio in TvP right now is the Chargelot. Marines are simply the only unit that can deal with chargelots in a timely manner. Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
And i don`t get why sunprince is talking about fixing SC2. SC2 is fine. The balance is very close. And thats a lot if you think about how very different the Races are designed. Sure i would also like to see some currently underused units made useful, but the core of the game is fine. Just because SC2 is different from SCBW does not mean its worse.
Just because win percentages are close doesn't mean a game is well-designed. We've known this since the beginning of SC2.
AFAIK there were no building add ons on SCBW. They reduce the flexibility of Terran production. The way you compare single stats of units in different games does not seem right and it has zero significance. And please, lets not start this hellion vs chargelot crap.
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On May 30 2012 08:15 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 07:05 sunprince wrote:On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
The whole Terran Race is designed to have core units and support units around them. Terran has the most expensive inflexible production and upgrade structure. If a Terran commits to bio he has to play bio. Bio Units need to be as strong as they are to make bionic play possible and to defend at the early state. Fail. None of this argument holds up in light of BW, where the production/upgrade structure worked the same way, and worked just fine without bio being "as strong as possible". Terran doesn't have a problem defending either. It says a lot about Terran players when they think that their primary composition should be "as strong as possible". On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
You could for example easily buff mech play in TvP without destroying the balance of the whole match up, as long as the buff effects the game only after the terran has really committed to mech. And TvP is really the only match up where the Terran has to play bio centric. In TvT and TvZ Mech and Bio centric play is possible. IMHO the only reason why Terran has to play marine heavy bio in TvP right now is the Chargelot. Marines are simply the only unit that can deal with chargelots in a timely manner. Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units. On May 29 2012 20:33 submarine wrote:
And i don`t get why sunprince is talking about fixing SC2. SC2 is fine. The balance is very close. And thats a lot if you think about how very different the Races are designed. Sure i would also like to see some currently underused units made useful, but the core of the game is fine. Just because SC2 is different from SCBW does not mean its worse.
Just because win percentages are close doesn't mean a game is well-designed. We've known this since the beginning of SC2. AFAIK there were no building add ons on SCBW. They reduce the flexibility of Terran production. The way you compare single stats of units in different games does not seem right and it has zero significance. And please, lets not start this hellion vs chargelot crap.
Just a note of clarification. Add-ons were in SCBW. Factory Machine Shops, Starport Control Towers. CC-Scan/Nukes. Sci-Facility add-ons.
Though I do agree with the point on the inflexibility of Terran production compared to the other two races.
Things have changed since BW. Terran production was fine then because there were no Queens, no Warp-ins.
Now Terrans have to be more decisive about choosing Naked Production buildings, Reactors or Tech-Labs. Although not necessary that difficult, in the heat of a battle - a quick tech switch is made much more difficult to accomplish.
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Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units.
The reason why marines are used so often is because they are the only unit we have that isnt one dimensional. Factory units become pretty useless after the midgame (mostly in TvP) same with our air units, except maybe for some sort of weird BC transition, but how often do you see that? And is it even viable? The one time I have seen it in pro play MVP vs Squirtle, it got stomped. You can hate the marine all you want but the fact remains that it is really our best unit, and no it is not overpowered. Without really good micro, marine heavy armies melt to a variety of things, fungal, baneling, colossus, psi storm, siege tanks, the list goes on. The answer is NOT to nerf the marine, that is stupid. What you would be doing is once again removing the rewards of good micro from the game. Marine splitting, stutter stepping, drops, etc are some of the most micro intensive and rewarding aspects of SC2, removing that potential is a horrible idea. Marines are only as good as the player using them, again the marine itself is NOT overpowered. They need to increase the skill ceiling of the other two races, not reduce the skill ceiling of the race that has the highest.
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anyone know when the matchup statistics will be up for this month ?
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On May 31 2012 21:01 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units. The reason why marines are used so often is because they are the only unit we have that isnt one dimensional. Factory units become pretty useless after the midgame (mostly in TvP) same with our air units, except maybe for some sort of weird BC transition, but how often do you see that? And is it even viable? The one time I have seen it in pro play MVP vs Squirtle, it got stomped. You can hate the marine all you want but the fact remains that it is really our best unit, and no it is not overpowered. Without really good micro, marine heavy armies melt to a variety of things, fungal, baneling, colossus, psi storm, siege tanks, the list goes on. The answer is NOT to nerf the marine, that is stupid. What you would be doing is once again removing the rewards of good micro from the game. Marine splitting, stutter stepping, drops, etc are some of the most micro intensive and rewarding aspects of SC2, removing that potential is a horrible idea. Marines are only as good as the player using them, again the marine itself is NOT overpowered. They need to increase the skill ceiling of the other two races, not reduce the skill ceiling of the race that has the highest.
in fact they should buff mech, instead of nerfing the rines, they should stop nefing things and start buffing things, remember when they said,"all units should feel overpowered" now it seems that all units feel underpowered
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On May 31 2012 21:15 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:01 teamhozac wrote:Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots, marines are the only unit that can deal with a lot of things because so much of Terran's power is built into them. Obviously if you distributed that more evenly, then Terran would have effective counters for everything, instead of having a single overpowered all-around unit and a bunch of underpowered support units. The reason why marines are used so often is because they are the only unit we have that isnt one dimensional. Factory units become pretty useless after the midgame (mostly in TvP) same with our air units, except maybe for some sort of weird BC transition, but how often do you see that? And is it even viable? The one time I have seen it in pro play MVP vs Squirtle, it got stomped. You can hate the marine all you want but the fact remains that it is really our best unit, and no it is not overpowered. Without really good micro, marine heavy armies melt to a variety of things, fungal, baneling, colossus, psi storm, siege tanks, the list goes on. The answer is NOT to nerf the marine, that is stupid. What you would be doing is once again removing the rewards of good micro from the game. Marine splitting, stutter stepping, drops, etc are some of the most micro intensive and rewarding aspects of SC2, removing that potential is a horrible idea. Marines are only as good as the player using them, again the marine itself is NOT overpowered. They need to increase the skill ceiling of the other two races, not reduce the skill ceiling of the race that has the highest. in fact they should buff mech, instead of nerfing the rines, they should stop nefing things and start buffing things, remember when they said,"all units should feel overpowered" now it seems that all units feel underpowered
Buffs dont apply to Terran according to Blizzard
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The Terran problem is just that they have no game changing unit. No one says "uuu Battlecruiser i need Carrier to counter them". You can say "uuu BC´s i just need more Stalker, or Feedback, or counterattack, or Voidrays or.......".
Colossus without counter you die
Broodlords without counter you die
Infestor, Ultralisk, High Templar the same.
What have Terran?
I cant move, i can´t shoot, iám always stuck and expensive like a colossus Thor?
Nurfed to death Ghost?
Build ravens and hope the guy on the other side dies an a laugh attack?
There is no way to surprise P´s or Z´s on macro games. And thats the reason because the only chance to take the opponent offguard is to cheese or allin.
On how many TvP´s MVP pulled scv´s last season? 80%? 90%?
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On May 31 2012 21:38 USvBleakill wrote:
The Terran problem is just that they have no game changing unit. No one says "uuu Battlecruiser i need Carrier to counter them". You can say "uuu BC´s i just need more Stalker, or Feedback, or counterattack, or Voidrays or.......".
Colossus without counter you die
Broodlords without counter you die
Infestor, Ultralisk, High Templar the same.
What have Terran?
I cant move, i can´t shoot, iám always stuck and expensive like a colossus Thor?
Nurfed to death Ghost?
Build ravens and hope the guy on the other side dies an a laugh attack?
There is no way to surprise P´s or Z´s on macro games. And thats the reason because the only chance to take the opponent offguard is to cheese or allin.
On how many TvP´s MVP pulled scv´s last season? 80%? 90%?
Pretty much sums it up
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On May 30 2012 01:28 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 01:17 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 30 2012 01:14 00Zarathustra wrote:On May 30 2012 00:55 Garmer wrote:On May 30 2012 00:42 tranmillitary wrote:
Most of the people here that are crying... are crying because they can't get into a higher league. IT'S NOT THE RACE, IT'S YOU. If it's so easy to get to GM with Toss or Zerg, THAN DO IT. Why stick to Terran if they suck so bad??
People think they're better than they really are. I'm a masters player on NA and i know that's my skill set. I know i'm not good enough for GM. Some people are are delusional. Switch to another race if you think it's so imbalance. Chances are that you will be in the same division no matter what race you are.
Bad game design?? Show me one game with better game design. why don't you quit SC2 and play whatever game is so much better than SC2. No one is forcing anyone here to play SC2. So annoying with so many whiners on this forum. Show me one game with better game designseriously? BROOD WAR!!!! And yes I still play BW and I would like to keep watching BW but they are taking away my pro gamers. I also play SC2 but it is not as fun because of this bad game design. I can say the same about watching pro SC2. Now name a game not made by Blizzard, lmao. I prefer BW myself, but SC2 is a better suited eSport than BW, you need to keep a casual audience, BW doesn't do that. Command and Conquer Generals before Zero Hour and after all those patches to nerf USA's airforce. That was pretty balanced.
What? I played Generals: Zero Hour competitively for 8 years and Airforce is one of the most overpowered RTS factions of all-time, that game hasn't been patched in years.. Generals also was not particularly balanced either.
On May 31 2012 21:38 USvBleakill wrote:
The Terran problem is just that they have no game changing unit. No one says "uuu Battlecruiser i need Carrier to counter them". You can say "uuu BC´s i just need more Stalker, or Feedback, or counterattack, or Voidrays or.......".
Colossus without counter you die
Broodlords without counter you die
Infestor,?
The problem for terran is that there is actually no counter for those units in combination  Vikings are so bad it's laughable. Everyone complains about TvP late game, but imo zerg is just ridiculous.
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like satiini i also want to know what the statistics for this month are. I bet i am not gonna be surprised of the results :-D
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On May 31 2012 21:49 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
like satiini i also want to know what the statistics for this month are. I bet i am not gonna be surprised of the results :-D
Terran extinction most likely
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On May 30 2012 07:05 sunprince wrote:
Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots
If that was a "fact" Blizzard wouldn't be adding the Battle Hellion specifically for the hellion to be better against chargelots. In most real-game scenarios with stacked aoe, varying map terrain, lack of upgrade synergy and so on, hellions are bad against chargelots. BFH hellions were ok against chargelots before the BF nerf, now they're just a waste of supply if you try to do anything with them except harass
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On May 31 2012 21:04 Satiinifi wrote:
anyone know when the matchup statistics will be up for this month ?
Most likely next week.
On May 31 2012 22:09 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 07:05 sunprince wrote:
Leaving aside the fact that hellions do just fine vs. zealots If that was a "fact" Blizzard wouldn't be adding the Battle Hellion specifically for the hellion to be better against chargelots. In most real-game scenarios with stacked aoe, varying map terrain, lack of upgrade synergy and so on, hellions are bad against chargelots. BFH hellions were ok against chargelots before the BF nerf, now they're just a waste of supply if you try to do anything with them except harass
That is not also forgetting how easy it is for protoss to switch away from zealot heavy composition into stalker heavy due to how fast it is to switch with the help of chrono boost.
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EPT
