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On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
I loled!
You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
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On April 30 2012 23:50 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? I loled! You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
Nah, man he got a gold I saw it!!!!
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/346_NATE_MSL_Preseason
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On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
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On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
Every other prior gsl winner but fruitdealer was still code s at the beginning of this season...
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On April 30 2012 23:57 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already. He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
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On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
MVP is still more relevant than anyone on that list, but that's beside the point completely. In fact, MVP + Nestea combines has over half of all GSL winnings (much more if we include other major tournaments, or the fact that both of them didn't really enter the scene until s2 or s3)
First sc1 bonjwa didn't happen until 2005, a good 5 or 6 years after game releases. Don't compare different things now
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On April 30 2012 23:50 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? I loled! You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
I didn't want to waste time to see what each of those tourneys were. Just did they have a winner that I could find listed quickly. I only started watching when flash won everything that ever mattered... Also to be fair he beat crazy-hydra, shine, and stats who aren't bad.
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On May 01 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:57 NoobSkills wrote:On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already. He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold. Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
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On May 01 2012 00:18 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:57 NoobSkills wrote:On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already. He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold. Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years... You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
To bring this back to the thread, I hate when people say sc2 is more random then have no stats to back it up. It seems like skill matters just as much as in bw, which is why I can't wait for the bw pros to switch. I have a feeling flash will absolutely tear it up very quickly when he switches over.
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On May 01 2012 00:18 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:57 NoobSkills wrote:On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already. He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold. Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years... You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, but isn't it premature to compare accomplishments from Wings of Liberty to accomplishments in Brood War? I'm not the only one who remembers when Zileas and Agent911 were the best BW players in the world, right? 
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On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
mc faded? he was in the code s round of 16 this very season
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MC got back into Code S via MLG after he dropped out. I think he would have feel into Code A/B for a very long time if not for that. His showing this current GSL was very poor.
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On May 01 2012 00:14 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:50 baubo wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? I loled! You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious. I didn't want to waste time to see what each of those tourneys were. Just did they have a winner that I could find listed quickly. I only started watching when flash won everything that ever mattered... Also to be fair he beat crazy-hydra, shine, and stats who aren't bad.
If you don't know something, you should either
A. Learn about it
B. Don't comment on it
or...
C. Look like an idiot for pretending you know something about a subject you have absolutely no clue about.
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Sick... I don't want him to play Terran because he'll make them look OP, but damn what a bad ass.
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On May 01 2012 00:30 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:14 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:50 baubo wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? I loled! You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious. I didn't want to waste time to see what each of those tourneys were. Just did they have a winner that I could find listed quickly. I only started watching when flash won everything that ever mattered... Also to be fair he beat crazy-hydra, shine, and stats who aren't bad. If you don't know something, you should either A. Learn about it B. Don't comment on it or... C. Look like an idiot for pretending you know something about a subject you have absolutely no clue about.
Want to see only OSL's, MSL's and WCG? Luxury, Jaedong, Calm, Bisu, Flash, Jaedong. That would prove my point even more. 5 different people out of 6 tourneys. Happy now? It still proves my point, whether you like it or not.
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On May 01 2012 00:23 Altercate wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, but isn't it premature to compare accomplishments from Wings of Liberty to accomplishments in Brood War? I'm not the only one who remembers when Zileas and Agent911 were the best BW players in the world, right?
yeah, but surfer4life was the best imo.
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On May 01 2012 00:27 Gescom wrote:
MC got back into Code S via MLG after he dropped out. I think he would have feel into Code A/B for a very long time if not for that. His showing this current GSL was very poor.
no, it wasn't, he made it past the first round. how is that very poor? that would mean 3/4 of the players did very poorly each season.
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On May 01 2012 00:20 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:18 NoobSkills wrote:On May 01 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:57 NoobSkills wrote:On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already. He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold. Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years... You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well. What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
What changes in the game of swimming or the game of curling over that time period? Nothing, the players just get better or worse? Doesn't really refute your point, but felt like saying it. My point wasn't that because it was more rare they dominated for the off season as well, but that if you are the best at one time in your career in gaming with SCBW or SC2, that in SCBW you had the maximum of 2 events you could win where as then for the GSL you could have 5 tournaments, and if you include the outside events add 10? I'm not saying he won while being bad, but that the feat of winning that many events is not bonjwa status because he didn't dominate an era like a flash/jd
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On May 01 2012 00:20 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:18 NoobSkills wrote:On May 01 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:57 NoobSkills wrote:On April 30 2012 23:49 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win? Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already. He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold. Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years... You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well. What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The problem with SC2 is far from who wins tournaments, its actually in the game itself. But we had have enough of those and either of the sides of the brawl doesn't want to concede.
Thing is, will Flash destroy everybody in SC2 proving the competition so far has been a farce? Or will Flash stay at the roster of the common top tier pro players? Which would lead us to two new questions: is SC2 cropping out the difference between a god and the mortals (which I think that it is what is gonna happen)? Will SC2 ever be fixed to bring back that difference?
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EPT
