KT Rolster's Flash has started studying Starcraft 2! After the finals against SKTelecom T1, he started his practices for SC2. As he learnt the units, buildings and managing he mentioned: "Through this workshop I am beginning to have fun"
But he still mentioned that he is in his learning phase of the race Terran in the game and that there isn't yet enough time to get used to the different types of units and macro management since the game is very different from Brood War.
However, he still showed his confidence! Even though he still needs to learn Protoss and Zerg, he is having so much fun while preparing that it has just become a matter of time before he catches up. In this workshop, he actively participated in the Unit Control User Map. As he played Terran User map, he showed incredible unit control that nobody could even catch up to him but showed his gaps when he played Protoss and Zerg.
But Flash was not worried at all. He had already familiarized himself with the Terran units, strategies and macro management skills and he was having fun getting to know other races.
Flash said: "It is so much fun since my teammates are actively helping me. I will think of SC2 as a new game and I will prepare for it with the same mindset and approach as I learnt Brood War for the first time. Please look out for Flash next season"
Go flash! I'm so happy to hear he's enjoying the game. I'm surprised it took so long for an article of such interest to get translated, I would have though like 5 translators would have hopped on it.
On April 29 2012 19:31 jspark703 wrote:Flash said: "It is so much fun since my teammates are actively helping me. I will think of SC2 as a new game and I will prepare for it with the same mindset and approach as I learnt Brood War for the first time. Please look out for Flash next season"
Can someone define what "season" he's talking about?
What length of time does this statement imply?
(I don't follow Brood War at all and don't know anything about the league he's involved with.)
On April 29 2012 19:31 jspark703 wrote:Flash said: "It is so much fun since my teammates are actively helping me. I will think of SC2 as a new game and I will prepare for it with the same mindset and approach as I learnt Brood War for the first time. Please look out for Flash next season"
Can someone define what "season" he's talking about?
What length of time does this statement imply?
(I don't follow Brood War at all and don't know anything about the league he's involved with.)
On April 29 2012 19:31 jspark703 wrote:Flash said: "It is so much fun since my teammates are actively helping me. I will think of SC2 as a new game and I will prepare for it with the same mindset and approach as I learnt Brood War for the first time. Please look out for Flash next season"
Can someone define what "season" he's talking about?
What length of time does this statement imply?
(I don't follow Brood War at all and don't know anything about the league he's involved with.)
Proleague.
This means nothing to me.
If you just wanted to post a "let me google that for you" link, you should have just done so.
I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
2 more expansions to get good. No problem in my opinion.
On April 29 2012 19:31 jspark703 wrote:Flash said: "It is so much fun since my teammates are actively helping me. I will think of SC2 as a new game and I will prepare for it with the same mindset and approach as I learnt Brood War for the first time. Please look out for Flash next season"
Can someone define what "season" he's talking about?
What length of time does this statement imply?
(I don't follow Brood War at all and don't know anything about the league he's involved with.)
Proleague.
This means nothing to me.
If you just wanted to post a "let me google that for you" link, you should have just done so.
=/
I read that next PL should be starting early may, but we are not sure until May 2nd after we get the announcement from the GOM/Blizzard/Kespa/OGN meeting
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
Who cares if he will be as good in SC2 as in BW.
The great thing about all of this is that finally all the pros are going to play the same game!
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
Flash has already established his name in BW. It's time for him to dominate SC2. Can't wait to see how he will perform.XD
Well your theory is a bit flawed since Nestea won 3 GSL championships. You don't need to start out young to be good. Nestea has proven us that.Plus, Flash is still young =D.
This has a translation, that post only has the link and picture.
There are translations in that thread, read the first page carefully.
I thought it deserved a proper translation
You deserve to be thanked, it's just that you could have just posted this translation in that thread. I may be wrong, but it still looks to me as a repost, because it is not news anymore, or you could have named it as "Translation of the news article about Flash practicing SC2". LOL. Why the heck am I saying this to you? I am by for not a mod, and I get banned very often, haha.
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
my biology teacher always told me that the human brain is strongest at the age of 18-19.
This has a translation, that post only has the link and picture.
There are translations in that thread, read the first page carefully.
I thought it deserved a proper translation
You deserve to be thanked, it's just that you could have just posted this translation in that thread. I may be wrong, but it still looks to me as a repost, because it is not news anymore, or you could have named it as "Translation of the news article about Flash practicing SC2". LOL. Why the heck am I saying this to you? I am by for not a mod, and I get banned very often, haha.
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
On April 29 2012 20:13 silverstyle wrote: By the time Flash gets up to speed on SC2 WoL, HotS might come out and they'll have to spend time relearning that =S lol
meh it'll level the playing field a fair bit imo. Flash will be dominating come early HotS
two thoughts: a.) never really watched competitive sc2 so i'm not sure how much i'll enjoy it, but what i've come to realize is that i am now more of a fan of the players than a fan of the game... so hopefully i would still follow all my favorite players in sc2 b.) if flash really enjoys sc2 and he keeps his motivation, it's hard not to see him being ridiculously good at it... people have a lot of differing opinions about how different sc2 is from bw, but flash is just a completely different beast...
On April 29 2012 20:13 silverstyle wrote: By the time Flash gets up to speed on SC2 WoL, HotS might come out and they'll have to spend time relearning that =S lol
meh it'll level the playing field a fair bit imo. Flash will be dominating come early HotS
I agree here, if anything HotS is a nice reset button for BW pros, the game will change drastically and everyone will have to re learn everything.
I know very little about BW but can appreciate these BW champs especially Flash will get very good at SC2 and that HoT might well be the best leveller as meta game will have a reboot allowing top pros to catch up. I am concerned that the very best will all choose Terran as it offers best value for insane apm...
On April 29 2012 20:33 Ireniicus wrote: I know very little about BW but can appreciate these BW champs especially Flash will get very good at SC2 and that HoT might well be the best leveller as meta game will have a reboot allowing top pros to catch up. I am concerned that the very best will all choose Terran as it offers best value for insane apm...
hope I am wrong ..long live the swarm!
as long as jaedong stick with zerg everything is fine for me
I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
I'd much rather see Flash play BW, but that doesn't seem possible, so I'll settle for and be happy with watching him play Sc2. If he can play that game as well as he plays BW (which seems likely) then he'll be a real pleasure to watch, just like always.
In this workshop, he actively participated in the Unit Control User Map. As he played Terran User map, he showed incredible unit control that nobody could even catch up to him but showed his gaps when he played Protoss and Zerg.
In this workshop, he actively participated in the Unit Control User Map. As he played Terran User map, he showed incredible unit control that nobody could even catch up to him but showed his gaps when he played Protoss and Zerg.
Don't believe it until i see it. footage O.O
I think they are talking about the other bw pros training with him. I hope.
Great to see that he is going to try protoss and zerg to see how they feel even if he isnt going to stick with them long term. I cant wait till they come over like really im counting the days waiting to see an announcement about when I can see them. Its gotten to the stage where its like just take my money I just want to watch the fireworks go off and see what happens.
On April 29 2012 21:46 advokat wrote: So this means that he quitted bw or? Cant wait to see geniuses from bw adapting to this, watching from wc tft player perspective
It means when the switch from BW to sc2 happens he wont be forced to play the game and will preform better because he wants to play the game.
On April 29 2012 20:45 251 wrote: I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
true, but do you remember his first years on pl?
He kinda was like idra... 14 cc gets rushed gg. every game.
then suddenly he started marine rushing with awesome micro and killing everything^^
maybe it'll take him some error strats also to learn sc2.
On April 29 2012 20:45 251 wrote: I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
There are still a lot of mechanics in Sc2 that pros can improve on. I think Flash can definitely bring something new to the scene, and the scene can bring something new to Flash's play.
On April 29 2012 20:45 251 wrote: I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
Well, when i see the current sc2 pros playing, i see exactly that: strategy, game sense and good mechanics, so I guess he's pretty safe.
I think he'll do very well. dominating idk, but we should see a rise in general level nonetheless.
On April 29 2012 20:45 251 wrote: I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
true, but do you remember his first years on pl?
He kinda was like idra... 14 cc gets rushed gg. every game.
then suddenly he started marine rushing with awesome micro and killing everything^^
maybe it'll take him some error strats also to learn sc2.
What?
That was AFTER that he had dominated an entire spring and was almost undefeated. So he started 14cc and stuff because he was just raping everyone anyway and got rushed a lot of times.
I'm so excited about this. I didn't follow BW, but I've since learned the players and have watched VODs, especially of Flash, so this is going to be great. Maybe there's an elephant in the room, maybe not, but if there is, it will be swiftly and brutally slain, it's eyes gouged and its testicles torn off and skewered with its own tusks once Flash enters the SC2 scene.
On April 29 2012 22:51 Masq wrote: Obviously all the BW pros will be well above average, but I don't think theyre going to dominate as everyone suspects them to.
I agree, I think the skill ceiling is not high enough and there's too much rushing/all inning going on in sc2
Flash said: "It is so much fun since my teammates are actively helping me. I will think of SC2 as a new game and I will prepare for it with the same mindset and approach as I learnt Brood War for the first time. Please look out for Flash next season
OMGOMG, next season of what? GSL, MLG, IPL? nasL? Anyways, this will be awesome I am curious to see his micro, as we know his macro will be flawless. Will he be anywhere near MKP's level already? I doubt it, but if he is, imagine what it would look like in 6 months. automaton2000, here we come!
On April 29 2012 23:02 Finnz wrote: i hope he starts streaming sc2. I reckon he would get around 25k viewers constantly if he did lol
I disagree with you ! Watching flash playing must be a gift made to the community during the big event not a random player that you can watch when you turn your pc on !
as excited i am about this i have a really bad "True Legend" feeling, i mean we all know Flash is the superior player, if not at the game then in his mind, but it just kind of feels like we might be seeing a old-master being thrown at a MMA ring, i hope it ends like in the movie, but movies are movies.... i really want Flash to dominate. Hope for the best, Flash Fighting!
why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
Wern't boxer nada and july like practically retired when they switched to sc2?
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
Wern't boxer nada and july like practically retired when they switched to sc2?
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
Maybe you shouldn't use players who were far past their prime in BW to make your point.
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
They don't just bring with them the amazing mechanics and game sense. This transition is huge due to the entirety of the migration, including the major coaches, team managers, and the supporting cast players. A lot of the innovation and competition originated in the background and we only got to see its fruition in tournaments. Fantasy style TvZ was developed by iloveoov, with weeks of tweaking with supporting cast players. The late game mech transition first saw light in tournament play with Sea and Light, both of whom were in MBC (though they deny collaboration in interview, it is awfully suspicious considering they were both on the same team).
These are the players who can execute that minutiae developed in practice under pressure situations; not every player can perform up to par. It's not a simple translation into sc2 skills. They are bringing the entire "professional" bag with them. That's why this is so hyped.
^ Seriously man. Besides Flash has fresh cyborg implants that will assure his success in SC2. Can't wait to see him play. The move to SC2 is going to be huge, but I can't help feeling sad for BW
Flash playing this game is a dream come true for SC2, I can't believe it is finally happening. The fact that he says he is having fun is so great to hear. I feel like hes the one to bring BW and SC2 together, you have to believe blizzard will accommodate him in HOTS. He is god after all.
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
Yea the problem with all the examples you listed is that they were retired or almost retired and out of their prime by the time they switched. And they still get pretty good results! It would be like saying "Hey Michael Jordan is the greatest basket ball player ever, he can most definitely win against anyone right now." Yes, Michael Jordan was the greatest but he is out of his prime. Now if you said "Lets take a time machine back to the mid 1990's and get Michael Jordan, then lets take him to the future and pit him against people." That would be a more accurate representation of taking someone at the very tip-top of their form.
The main reason people are saying they will dominate is because they have proven themselves to be at the top of the most competitive video gaming scene in history. They have the drive, the work ethic, the practice environment, and the mentality to succeed at all costs. This is proven by their success. These traits are what assure dominance.
seems like SC2 community isn't ready for BW pros switching over. All they ask if they will play in MLG/IPL/NASL or GSL omg omg when all they allowed to play is in the Proleague for now when on 2nd of May they will announce the new format.
On April 30 2012 00:10 zazone wrote: seems like SC2 community isn't ready for BW pros switching over. All they ask if they will play in MLG/IPL/NASL or GSL omg omg when all they allowed to play is in the Proleague for now when on 2nd of May they will announce the new format.
I don't understand your post. How does that mean that the SC2 community isn't ready? Sure some of us are a bit naive since we don't know how the BW/KeSPA format worked. So?
I can't want for him to switch over and either destroy everyone or be yet another mediocre korean terran so the stupid elephant argument can finally be put to rest and we can move on.
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
nada was a great bw player but I believe his successes were some time ago, certainly longer ago than flash's
plus he actually did really really great in Code S for a very long time. I think he was the longest player consistently in code s until he dropped. he also made 2 consecutive semfinals last year iirc. He did really well in sc2 considering everything.
I guess we can conclude this era of SC2 as the "Pre-BW era". It was fun while it lasted. Can't wait to see the paradigm shift that the BW players will bring with their practice regimens and unparalled skill xd
On April 29 2012 22:51 Masq wrote: Obviously all the BW pros will be well above average, but I don't think theyre going to dominate as everyone suspects them to.
I agree, I think the skill ceiling is not high enough and there's too much rushing/all inning going on in sc2
That makes the game hard imho. Simply marcoing is one thing but if you have to fear an all-in, there will be a lot of variation.
Actually, BW has a lot of all-ins as well. They are just more disguised because the person who fails the allin doesn't died right way due to stronger defender advantages in BW. But there are pushes/timings that are in BW where you have to do critical damage or you will be so behind that you will just get contained and die a slow death.
its awesome that he is having fun playing it, hopefully we can see him play in the near future just to see how he compares with the established sc2 players
Hmm, thought Flash was practicing his translating skills. I'm super excited to see how well BW players do, though it'll probably take some adjusting time since the game is so different.
Flash is talented enough that theres no way he won't be good at SC2. I'm sure these BW guys will bring it when the time comes, they are professionals after all.
I am that sure that he will dominate. SC2 has less demanding mechanics so his mechanic skills will be less powerful here. Plus much of the game sense he developed while playing BW may not carry over since timings and the dynamics of the game is different. Plus he will be 2 years behind the current pros.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
On April 30 2012 00:10 zazone wrote: seems like SC2 community isn't ready for BW pros switching over. All they ask if they will play in MLG/IPL/NASL or GSL omg omg when all they allowed to play is in the Proleague for now when on 2nd of May they will announce the new format.
What does that have to do with the community being not ready, exactly?
On April 30 2012 00:10 zazone wrote: seems like SC2 community isn't ready for BW pros switching over. All they ask if they will play in MLG/IPL/NASL or GSL omg omg when all they allowed to play is in the Proleague for now when on 2nd of May they will announce the new format.
What does that have to do with the community being not ready, exactly?
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
Thats because it doesn't
It's a poor excuse. You don't need a high skill to shoot a ball into a basket, but you aren't Lebron James either.
when BW-players are switching, they will become the new Korea and the proplayers who are already korean sc2-players will become foreigner and than it's again up to foreigner vs new korea
The best thing about this is that we are guaranteed to see the highest quality play, be it from BW pros or SC2 pros.
And seriously, the "low skill ceiling" in SC2 is bullshit. That's just a lazy pro-gamer's excuse for losing to someone he should beat if he worked harder. But enough cheap talk (read my sig); Flash will prove it one way or another soon.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I think you're right, hardcore BW fans will find something to complain about no matter what. Oh well, their bad attitude still won't detract from the fact that I enjoy SC2.
On April 29 2012 20:45 251 wrote: I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
true, but do you remember his first years on pl?
He kinda was like idra... 14 cc gets rushed gg. every game.
then suddenly he started marine rushing with awesome micro and killing everything^^
maybe it'll take him some error strats also to learn sc2.
Flash like was BitByBit when he started, so many 2 rax SCV all ins against Protoss. Only that he was actually good and ended up winning an OSL.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I think you're right, hardcore BW fans will find something to complain about no matter what. Oh well, their bad attitude still won't detract from the fact that I enjoy SC2.
Hey now, SC2 elitists complain about the exact same things when it comes to LoL. If you look at the threads, SC2 elitists are complaining about Moba games, and about BW and C&C. We only complain about SC2.
On April 29 2012 20:45 251 wrote: I don't think I could handle it if Flash became just another SC2 Korean pro. Obviously a big part of Flash's success in BW are his superb mechanics, strategy and game sense. Who knows how that'll translate to a game that's much more volatile. If he crosses over I want to see him absolutely dominate.
true, but do you remember his first years on pl?
He kinda was like idra... 14 cc gets rushed gg. every game.
then suddenly he started marine rushing with awesome micro and killing everything^^
maybe it'll take him some error strats also to learn sc2.
Flash like was BitByBit when he started, so many 2 rax SCV all ins against Protoss. Only that he was actually good and ended up winning an OSL.
Flash started with so many allins to get used to playing live, BitByBit did it to win some money^^
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
The only problem is here is that BW is dying and no matter how much you insult SC2 you arent bringing it back. So if you could be a little nicer and then we could all get along. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you need to take every chance you get to tell everybody on the internet what you think. Most of us dont care.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I think you're right, hardcore BW fans will find something to complain about no matter what. Oh well, their bad attitude still won't detract from the fact that I enjoy SC2.
I think it started from comments like "Wow I can't believe people still play BW, the graphics suck" and "Do people still play this game?? LOL". We are actually very friendly
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
QFT.
Some BroodWar fans just have troubles telling a game from religion. Not every Al Quaeda recruit is as zealous as some BroodWar guys.
Not that I can blame them, they watched Flash playing after all... he does that to people.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
The only problem is here is that BW is dying and no matter how much you insult SC2 you arent bringing it back. So if you could be a little nicer and then we could all get along. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you need to take every chance you get to tell everybody on the internet what you think. Most of us dont care.
Actually, it's more about us wanting the game to become objectively better. Someone has to say the truth as the vast majority of SC2 players settled for less. It's the same deal with BNet "2", which is an outright downgrade and a comparatively shitty service. But people don't care anymore.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
The only problem is here is that BW is dying and no matter how much you insult SC2 you arent bringing it back. So if you could be a little nicer and then we could all get along. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you need to take every chance you get to tell everybody on the internet what you think. Most of us dont care.
Actually, it's more about us wanting the game to become objectively better. Someone has to say the truth as the vast majority of SC2 players settled for less. It's the same deal with BNet "2", which is an outright downgrade and a comparatively shitty service. But people don't care anymore.
Better enough to be worthy of the name Starcraft, at least for me.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I think you're right, hardcore BW fans will find something to complain about no matter what. Oh well, their bad attitude still won't detract from the fact that I enjoy SC2.
I think it started from comments like "Wow I can't believe people still play BW, the graphics suck" and "Do people still play this game?? LOL". We are actually very friendly
Unless every BW fan is an idiot there's no way that's why, comments like that are 100% trolls.
More that there was a whole lot of flaming when Blizzard and Kespa first had their lawsuits going on.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
The only problem is here is that BW is dying and no matter how much you insult SC2 you arent bringing it back. So if you could be a little nicer and then we could all get along. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you need to take every chance you get to tell everybody on the internet what you think. Most of us dont care.
Actually, it's more about us wanting the game to become objectively better. Someone has to say the truth as the vast majority of SC2 players settled for less. It's the same deal with BNet "2", which is an outright downgrade and a comparatively shitty service. But people don't care anymore.
You clearly don't spend enough time on the SC2 general forum if you think people don't complain about the game issues and B.net 0.2. Lots of suggestions and discussion can be found on the topic.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
why is it inferior? if they come in and dominate doesn't it mean sc2 has the necessary skill ceiling that allows players to be completely dominant if their skill is better? isn't that exactly what bw fans (and imo everyone should be) hope for?
why is it STILL inferior? I really thought this would be the litmus test.
the best rts players alive on the planet come over. if their talent allows them to rise above the current crop, sc2 is validated. if not, even as an sc2 fan, I totally get considering it inferior to BW. but to STILL call it worse if they do dominate, that I don't understand. that just seems like you are attached to BW. which is fine but call it what it is.
edit - this is ignoring the word "hopelessly" being a bit of an exaggeration for a game with 2 expansions still to come and an untold number of patches.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
You are more eloquent about this than I am. I agree, spectator-wise SC2 is inferior.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
You are more eloquent about this than I am. I agree, spectator-wise SC2 is inferior.
I never believed in the elephant, anyways
you agree because you're attached to BW, though. as your sig makes clear.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
You are more eloquent about this than I am. I agree, spectator-wise SC2 is inferior.
I never believed in the elephant, anyways
you agree because you're attached to BW, though. as your sig makes clear.
If starcraft 2 was indeed named something else, we would not be having this conversation.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
You are more eloquent about this than I am. I agree, spectator-wise SC2 is inferior.
I never believed in the elephant, anyways
you agree because you're attached to BW, though. as your sig makes clear.
He has no BIAS!
.."Entusman #50!! What happens when the Unstoppable Force meets the Immovable Object? Chuck Norris dies. Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after Starcraft: Brood War." >.>
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
I have never seen a group of people so viciously and and so aggressively lash out at anything that isnt their choice game than BW elitists.
BW players do not dominate: the game REALLY sucks.
BW players do dominate: the game still sucks AND foreigners are lazy bums.
I see no problem here :p
Actually it is more like:
S-class BW players do not dominate: The game is hopelessly volatile
S-class BW players do dominate: The game isn't hopelessly volatile, but spectatorwise it is still an inferior game...
The above stems from people having more faith in the S-class players of BW's skills than SC2 being a well-balanced game...
If you are going to flame BW-elitists, at least do it for the right reasons.
You are more eloquent about this than I am. I agree, spectator-wise SC2 is inferior.
I never believed in the elephant, anyways
you agree because you're attached to BW, though. as your sig makes clear.
If starcraft 2 was indeed named something else, we would not be having this conversation.
that's great but this continues to not actually explain why sc2 is worse for spectators than BW EVEN IF bw players like Flash come in and dominate. I really thought the only issue was the perception (the VERY FAIR perception, I want to make clear I don't disagree with you) that sc2 is too volatile and the skill ceiling is too low to compare to BW.
On April 30 2012 03:02 ppshchik wrote: Yup, just hype Flash just like you guys hype ForGG.
*ForGG gets into Code S* OMG ForGG is going to win GSL soon! *ForGG gets owned in Code S* ForGG is way past his prime, wait till Flash switches over!
*Flash plays SC2* OMG Flash is going to win GSL soon! *If Flash gets owned in SC2* SC2 is a stupidly easy game that does not reward skill!
no need to be a BW anti-fan you folks are just as bad as pure BW elitists.
I just think all the hype surrounding ForGG made him lose his appeal in SC2, I just don't want the same thing happening to Flash. Just sick of BW elitist will make every excuse if Flash manages to not do well in SC2
I also think Flash's playstyle is too methodical to play SC2 Terran. SC2 Terran doesn't really suit his turtling style, esp in TvZ.
I do think Fantasy will do well with SC2 Terran though.
On April 30 2012 03:07 Garmer wrote: actually the original was: "Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
which is still basically saying "I'll never accept sc2 because I love BW too much"
which I can't argue with but it's not a compelling reason for anyone else to agree that sc2 is less interesting for spectators (again assuming flash can come in and blow us away)
On April 30 2012 03:02 ppshchik wrote: Yup, just hype Flash just like you guys hype ForGG.
*ForGG gets into Code S* OMG ForGG is going to win GSL soon! *ForGG gets owned in Code S* ForGG is way past his prime, wait till Flash switches over!
*Flash plays SC2* OMG Flash is going to win GSL soon! *If Flash gets owned in SC2* SC2 is a stupidly easy game that does not reward skill!
no need to be a BW anti-fan you folks are just as bad as pure BW elitists.
I just think all the hype surrounding ForGG made him lose his appeal in SC2, I just don't want the same thing happening to Flash. Just sick of BW elitist will make every excuse if Flash manages to not do well in SC2
I also think Flash's playstyle is too methodical to play SC2 Terran. SC2 Terran doesn't really suit his turtling style, esp in TvZ.
I do think Fantasy will do well with SC2 Terran though.
uuhhhh you don't know flash if you think all he does is turtling.. thats just one of his many styles he is the king of timings and macro and mechanics. there is a reason he is called god in bw. He is just good all around. I would personally say jaejong has better mechanics but flash's are scary as well.
On April 29 2012 19:39 IAmSpooner wrote: I can't wait to see if Flash will be as great in WOL as he was in BW.
I can tell you for sure that he won't be. WoL will end soon, since most likely HotS Beta is coming out in the summer, and after a half year or so when it gets released tournaments will switch. So the question is that how he will do in HotS. But maybe I underestimate the power of the God so... But I don't think that he will be done those things in SC2 that he has done in BW in 5-6 months. Oh, and also what if he will play HotS beta immidietly, so he will have 1-2 months with WoL (: I feel like that he won't be able to achive that much in WoL because he won't have enough time for that. But in HotS he will be kick-ass I'm sure.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
A lot of people in this thread forgot a simple fact that MOST of the Korean SC2 pros came from BW. Most of the top Kr (except Polt) players have a BW background. It is true to some extent that BW Pros do dominate SC2.
I'm more interested in seeing the players who would have played BW but instead will now play SC2... so rather than Flash.. I want to see the next Flash appearing, the next Jaedong. Although I still can't wait to see Jaedong as an SC2 zerg.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
On April 30 2012 03:07 Garmer wrote: actually the original was: "Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
which is still basically saying "I'll never accept sc2 because I love BW too much"
which I can't argue with but it's not a compelling reason for anyone else to agree that sc2 is less interesting for spectators (again assuming flash can come in and blow us away)
SC2 could benefit from removing the stupid ball wars, as a spectator game, maybe this will happen with LOTV , who knows..
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
meh, most people know that it takes awhile to acclimate to sc2.. he wasn't god mode instantly but he did get fucking good really fast in BW.
On April 30 2012 03:20 Dodgin wrote: Game over foreigners...game over
I wish I could see the FPVOD of him doing the micro custom games.
hardly think that its game over for foreigners unless you thought it was already over from korean dominance.
Well I kind of did until recently ( dh,gsl ), but just imagine when the current korean sc2 progamers + these guys also come to foreign tournaments.
It will be like every tournament is IPL4.
that was where it was headed already.. so why would it matter if BW players came or not?
Well unless they start hosting PL/gstl finals at every tournament it won't be like that again, I think there were literally more Koreans than foreigners at that event and 16+ of them from startale/prime that wouldn't have otherwise come.
Oh and of course the obligatory " any tournament flash goes to no one else has a chance to win "
I just wish we could have broodwar and we could have starcraft 2.
I don't want anyone to switch. Either people's expectations for korean greatness will be let down with a resulting dip in people interested, or we will lose the foreigner scene to korean domination.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I'm a bit afraid that if Flash doesn't do very well, there will be some people who criticize the game and not the player. Like, anytime Flash loses will "prove" that SC2 has a low skill cap or is coin-flippy or whatever. Don't forget that Flash loses games in BW too and he will lose games in SC2.
If you need proof of consistency, though, I'd say look no further than MarineKingPrime. He's been a big player in the SC2 scene since GSL Open Season 2. He's been so consistent in SC2 - always near the top and now at the very top quite a bit. You don't have a dominating player like him in a skill-less game. So whether you like SC2 or not when compared to BW, it's difficult to deny how skilled a player like MKP must be to do what he has done for two years now.
So I think it's just a matter of time before Flash becomes a dominating SC2 player, it's just how long will it actually take. Let's also not forget how close HOTS is... that's practically a reset button for everyone.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
It's hard to respect him if he doesn't do amazing due to the "elephant in the room" thread.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
It's hard to respect him if he doesn't do amazing due to the "elephant in the room" thread.
Yeah, because Flash personally posted on that thread. God, how bad TL has become.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
Well, I do hope Flash will be at top of SC2, because if he doesn't I feel a lot of BW fans will have their confirmation that sc2 has a lower skill ceiling and is inherently an inferior game to bw, which will only hurt the chances of bw fanbase accepting sc2
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
I pretty sure he said in an interview that he told his parents he's going to give progaming a try, but if he doesn't get drafted after a month, he's going to quit.
@K3Nyy
He played it casually with friends in a PCBang. That's not even as serious as playing on iCCup. And I meant good by progamer standards. He was not on the A team of P&C (his first team), he showed potential, but was definitely not good in progamer terms.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
I pretty sure he said in an interview that he told his parents he's going to give progaming a try, but if he doesn't get drafted after a month, he's going to quit.
@K3Nyy
He played it casually with friends in a PCBang. That's not even as serious as playing on iCCup. And I meant good by progamer standards. He was not on the A team of P&C (his first team), he showed potential, but was definitely not good in progamer terms.
i think what he said was if he didn't win an OSL within the first year of going pro he'd quit
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
Flash didn't win Courage on his first try.
Jangbi for one beat him.
Q: You will meet Flash in the Round of 8. A: Flash is a player that after his debut, has been continuing to put out consistent results. He has received attention ever since he was a practice partner and has been reigning as the best player for over 5 years. But as for me, I have a positive momentum following me. I have an experience where I defeated Flash in the 2005 Courage Tournament finals and acquired qualification to become a semi-progamer.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
My bad. You are correct. You are also correct about him not only practising a month. Or well, it depends on what one means by practise. It took him one month after he decided he'd try to go pro to obtain the license. But he had played the game before that decision. And yes, I entirely agree. Winning Courage like that is most likely harder than getting into Code S. After all I don't think anyone else has done that but Flash.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
Q: You will meet Flash in the Round of 8. A: Flash is a player that after his debut, has been continuing to put out consistent results. He has received attention ever since he was a practice partner and has been reigning as the best player for over 5 years. But as for me, I have a positive momentum following me. I have an experience where I defeated Flash in the 2005 Courage Tournament finals and acquired qualification to become a semi-progamer.
Really? I was so sure I read before that he qualified on his first try, or was it the first month?
"During the summer break of his first middle school year, Flash decided to become a progamer, and he told his parents “I want to use a month of my break to go to Seoul and live in a practice house, and officially begin studying Starcraft.”
“In the beginning, my parents strongly opposed me. I begged them and said ‘I will get progamer status in a month. If I can’t, I’ll give it up.’ My parents accepted this condition. But even though I promised this, I was unsure if I could do it.”
And so, from his home in Daejoon, he used this summer break to move to Seoul and began his life practicing. Miraculously, he successfully achieved progamer status in a month. The speed at which his abilities increased was astonishing. But on the day he achieved his progamer status, he was stopped in the Ro4 of the offline prelims. But his parents decided that he could attain success as a progamer."
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
Hehe, you know that before he started to seriously play BW, everyone had years of experience more than him, and yet he obtained his progamer licence after a month of hard practice?
Yes. He was always a good player back then but he never "dominated" until a few years ago. People's expectations of him seem to be something like winning GSL on the first try. ><"
Whatever, either way I hope he does really well, I just hope his name doesn't get tarnished. T_T;;
I don't think you understand (I think you have a vague idea of what I was talking about when mentioning obtaining a progamer licence, because by progamer standards he was not good back then). My point is any experience current SC2 progamers have is irrelevant because Flash is absolutely the most talented and hard working RTS player to ever live. If only SC2 allows for that sort of skill, then he will catch up in no time. It's simply much easier to get into Code S as the best BW player than it is to win Courage as a kid after a month of practice.
I am fairly sure Flash failed to qualify through Courage a few times before obtaining the license. Your point still stands. Just because other people have played longer does not mean one can't catch up. TL newbies will have to realize that these Stephanos and MMAs are nothing but regional level champions to our Olympic level Flash.
No he qualified at his first try.
I don't think he only practiced for a month. He told his parents to give him one month and he'll quit if he didn't make it. I'm pretty sure he played BW for a lot longer than a month.
But I agree that it's probably harder to win Courage like that after 1 month than getting into Code S (right now). Hell, even Jaedong took like 3 tries I think?
Why wouldn't you consider him good back then? He was always good I think, just a bit cheesy and 14CC'ed every game lol. He made solid runs during his first years.
Q: You will meet Flash in the Round of 8. A: Flash is a player that after his debut, has been continuing to put out consistent results. He has received attention ever since he was a practice partner and has been reigning as the best player for over 5 years. But as for me, I have a positive momentum following me. I have an experience where I defeated Flash in the 2005 Courage Tournament finals and acquired qualification to become a semi-progamer.
"During the summer break of his first middle school year, Flash decided to become a progamer, and he told his parents “I want to use a month of my break to go to Seoul and live in a practice house, and officially begin studying Starcraft.”
“In the beginning, my parents strongly opposed me. I begged them and said ‘I will get progamer status in a month. If I can’t, I’ll give it up.’ My parents accepted this condition. But even though I promised this, I was unsure if I could do it.”
And so, from his home in Daejoon, he used this summer break to move to Seoul and began his life practicing. Miraculously, he successfully achieved progamer status in a month. The speed at which his abilities increased was astonishing. But on the day he achieved his progamer status, he was stopped in the Ro4 of the offline prelims. But his parents decided that he could attain success as a progamer. In 2007, in the third year of middle school, he joined KTF MagicNs. He was only 15."
Maybe before seriously deciding to go pro he had attempted the courage tournament.
On April 30 2012 03:20 K3Nyy wrote: I hate these kinds of discussions.
Let's not overhype him. Everybody in the current scene has like two years ahead of him and to expect so much from him when he debuts is kind of unreasonable. And I hope the sc2 newbies will respect him as the god he is in BW and not insult him.
I'm such a big fan of Flash and it'll break my heart to see people talk about him like they do about forgg.
It's hard to respect him if he doesn't do amazing due to the "elephant in the room" thread.
Even if he doesn't perform as well as many people assume he will that doesn't take away from the fact that he is the best RTS player in BW and likely ever.
On April 30 2012 03:07 Garmer wrote: actually the original was: "Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
Actually that does not capture what I think about SC2. I will change my sig soon.
On April 30 2012 03:07 Garmer wrote: actually the original was: "Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
Actually that does not capture what I think about SC2. I will change my sig soon.
What who said that? If you're talking about the BW coaches then nice job twisting the words to change it into something you want it to say.
On April 30 2012 03:07 Garmer wrote: actually the original was: "Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
Actually that does not capture what I think about SC2. I will change my sig soon.
What who said that? If you're talking about the BW coaches then nice job twisting the words to change it into something you want it to say.
It is just how some people feel. I myself saw it on a sig once.
On April 30 2012 03:07 Garmer wrote: actually the original was: "Starcraft 2's greatest mistake was naming itself after the greatest of all: Starcraft: Brood War."
Actually that does not capture what I think about SC2. I will change my sig soon.
What who said that? If you're talking about the BW coaches then nice job twisting the words to change it into something you want it to say.
It is just how some people feel. I myself saw it on a sig once.
I think if the SC2 community emulates the dedication and passion that the BW community has for BW, SC2 will be able to reach a level of comparable respect in the eyes of BW fans. This BW/SC2 rift sucks so much.
Let's hope that they will dominate like in bw. Cause that will mean that sc2 will be equal if not even better than bw and that it rewards skill. That will close the rift between the two groups and everyone will rejoice.
I really wonder how successful with bw players be and what new styles and strategies they develop. At least for Flash I'm sure he's gonna be the best in sc2 as soon as he learns the units. ^^
I'm sad about what this means for BW, but absolutely curious to see how he'll perform in SC2. It's strange how emotional I am over this all. I just hope to God he tears through SC2 nerds, if he stops playing BW to be above average at SC2 I think I'll die a little on the inside
Wow, amazing. I guess this is can be used as evidence in the talent vs skill debates/discussions.
Anyways, what is this user map? Is it KR only? Can someone kindly bring it over to EU or NA? :D
On April 30 2012 05:56 Steveling wrote: Let's hope that they will dominate like in bw. Cause that will mean that sc2 will be equal if not even better than bw and that it rewards skill. That will close the rift between the two groups and everyone will rejoice.
Wow, good point
On April 30 2012 05:47 Balgrog wrote: Once flash starts playing we wont know if terran is imba, or just flash being awesome.
Haha oh noes!!! Oh wait, I'm terran so that's good for me either way xD
On April 30 2012 05:56 Steveling wrote: Let's hope that they will dominate like in bw. Cause that will mean that sc2 will be equal if not even better than bw and that it rewards skill. That will close the rift between the two groups and everyone will rejoice.
On April 30 2012 05:47 Balgrog wrote: Once flash starts playing we wont know if terran is imba, or just flash being awesome.
Haha oh noes!!! Oh wait, I'm terran so that's good for me either way xD
No it isn't. In sc2 they nerf Terran every patch (Terran has a nerf in every balance patch so far don't they? ) because some good players found ways to play that either is OP from a Protoss and Zerg perspective or Blizzard just nerfs anyway because they didn't design X unit to be able to do something someone found out it could do. It's not awesome, it gets boring after a while.
I shit you not, if Flash or any other pro with mechanics like Flash and Bisu would pull of something amazing (build order, new style of play, unit micro or unit ability) because of his mechanic ability people will scream for nerf and OP anyway, even if it only possible to do that thing if you are on pair with those guys when it comes to mechanics and execution. This regards every matchup in the game.
On April 30 2012 06:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow, amazing. I guess this is can be used as evidence in the talent vs skill debates/discussions.
Anyways, what is this user map? Is it KR only? Can someone kindly bring it over to EU or NA? :D
On April 30 2012 05:56 Steveling wrote: Let's hope that they will dominate like in bw. Cause that will mean that sc2 will be equal if not even better than bw and that it rewards skill. That will close the rift between the two groups and everyone will rejoice.
Wow, good point
On April 30 2012 05:47 Balgrog wrote: Once flash starts playing we wont know if terran is imba, or just flash being awesome.
Haha oh noes!!! Oh wait, I'm terran so that's good for me either way xD
No it isn't. In sc2 they nerf Terran every patch (Terran has a nerf in every balance patch so far don't they? ) because some good players found ways to play that either is OP from a Protoss and Zerg perspective or Blizzard just nerfs anyway because they didn't design X unit to be able to do something someone found out it could do. It's not awesome, it gets boring after a while.
I shit you not, if Flash or any other pro with mechanics like Flash and Bisu would pull of something amazing (build order, new style of play, unit micro or unit ability) because of his mechanic ability people will scream for nerf and OP anyway, even if it only possible to do that thing if you are on pair with those guys when it comes to mechanics and execution. This regards every matchup in the game.
Obvious butthurt Terran player is butthurt. Not every patch even addresses the terran race. The only nerfs made were made because of actual exploits of units in ways that they should not be used. (aka. suiciding 10 blue flame hellions into mineral lines because you know you'll make profit or bunker rushing every game w/ no tradeoff even if it fails) Also, how about a nerf due to TvT? blue flames were nerfed vs marines because it was just stupid good to open blue flame vs fast expand bio. Stop being so ignorant. Also this thread is not about imbalance.
In any case, I hope flash will eventually reach #1 terran status or at least top 2 soon so that people stop talking about SC2 skill ceiling.
The thing I fear is that if for some crazy reason Flash does not do too hot, everyone will start screaming that Terran is the underpowered race or something.
On April 30 2012 07:34 Firebolt145 wrote: The thing I fear is that if for some crazy reason Flash does not do too hot, everyone will start screaming that Terran is the underpowered race or something.
Or every one will scream that skill and mechanics don't matter as much in SC2.
Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
On April 30 2012 08:10 xOny wrote: Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
He was years late to BW as well. It didn't stop him from dominating at the tender age of 15 and becoming the youngest champion ever. I'm not one to believe in the elephant, but Flash is something different. If his wrists aren't a problem than I fully expect him to dominate everyone right after the 1 year block it was rumored KESPA would put up.
On April 30 2012 08:10 xOny wrote: Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
He was years late to BW as well. It didn't stop him from dominating at the tender age of 15 and becoming the youngest champion ever. I'm not one to believe in the elephant, but Flash is something different. If his wrists aren't a problem than I fully expect him to dominate everyone right after the 1 year block it was rumored KESPA would put up.
I believe that that "block" would prevent current GSL contenders from participating in KeSPA's leagues but not the other way around. Either way, I suspect we'll find out soon enough.
On April 30 2012 08:10 xOny wrote: Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
He was years late to BW as well. It didn't stop him from dominating at the tender age of 15 and becoming the youngest champion ever. I'm not one to believe in the elephant, but Flash is something different. If his wrists aren't a problem than I fully expect him to dominate everyone right after the 1 year block it was rumored KESPA would put up.
I believe that that "block" would prevent current GSL contenders from participating in KeSPA's leagues but not the other way around. Either way, I suspect we'll find out soon enough.
Probably a smart move on Kespa's part in terms of PR. Their viewership wouldn't take too kindly to having their heroes get dominated initially, which could hurt any potential leagues. Bit of a safety net against the unknown factor of "How good will the BW pros REALLY be?"
I'm personally not too worried about it, I expect TBLS to be scary good.
On April 30 2012 08:10 xOny wrote: Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
He was years late to BW as well. It didn't stop him from dominating at the tender age of 15 and becoming the youngest champion ever. I'm not one to believe in the elephant, but Flash is something different. If his wrists aren't a problem than I fully expect him to dominate everyone right after the 1 year block it was rumored KESPA would put up.
I believe that that "block" would prevent current GSL contenders from participating in KeSPA's leagues but not the other way around. Either way, I suspect we'll find out soon enough.
Probably a smart move on Kespa's part in terms of PR. Their viewership wouldn't take too kindly to having their heroes get dominated initially, which could hurt any potential leagues. Bit of a safety net against the unknown factor of "How good will the BW pros REALLY be?"
I'm personally not too worried about it, I expect TBLS to be scary good.
Also, within the BW pro scene, the hierarchy will likely be shaken up a bit. In the interview at least, I gatherered BW skill and success is not a 1:1 think amongest teams practicing SC2 since SC2 highlights different skill sets. Top Top players are probably still going to be good, but below that we could see some shifting in placement.
On April 30 2012 08:10 xOny wrote: Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
He was years late to BW as well. It didn't stop him from dominating at the tender age of 15 and becoming the youngest champion ever. I'm not one to believe in the elephant, but Flash is something different. If his wrists aren't a problem than I fully expect him to dominate everyone right after the 1 year block it was rumored KESPA would put up.
I believe that that "block" would prevent current GSL contenders from participating in KeSPA's leagues but not the other way around. Either way, I suspect we'll find out soon enough.
Probably a smart move on Kespa's part in terms of PR. Their viewership wouldn't take too kindly to having their heroes get dominated initially, which could hurt any potential leagues. Bit of a safety net against the unknown factor of "How good will the BW pros REALLY be?"
I'm personally not too worried about it, I expect TBLS to be scary good.
Also, within the BW pro scene, the hierarchy will likely be shaken up a bit. In the interview at least, I gatherered BW skill and success is not a 1:1 think amongest teams practicing SC2 since SC2 highlights different skill sets. Top Top players are probably still going to be good, but below that we could see some shifting in placement.
Yeah I agree here. The BW macro is a completely unnecessary skill set to have in SC2. Imo WC3 players are more likely to be great at SC2 than BW players, as that's more of a micro oriented RTS. Then again most WC3 players only became average, and arn't really a force to be reckoned with in the GSL.
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
flash is only 19 years old...................... You make it seem like flash is in his 30's or something with a wife and kid.
On April 30 2012 08:10 xOny wrote: Seems overhyped. He won't dominate initially, and if he continues to practice with a really good team he might dominate in a year or two. Hots might help, but he still is sooo late.
Are there any known/ suspected replays of him? Would be interesting to see his micro etc.
He was years late to BW as well. It didn't stop him from dominating at the tender age of 15 and becoming the youngest champion ever. I'm not one to believe in the elephant, but Flash is something different. If his wrists aren't a problem than I fully expect him to dominate everyone right after the 1 year block it was rumored KESPA would put up.
I believe that that "block" would prevent current GSL contenders from participating in KeSPA's leagues but not the other way around. Either way, I suspect we'll find out soon enough.
Probably a smart move on Kespa's part in terms of PR. Their viewership wouldn't take too kindly to having their heroes get dominated initially, which could hurt any potential leagues. Bit of a safety net against the unknown factor of "How good will the BW pros REALLY be?"
I'm personally not too worried about it, I expect TBLS to be scary good.
Also, within the BW pro scene, the hierarchy will likely be shaken up a bit. In the interview at least, I gatherered BW skill and success is not a 1:1 think amongest teams practicing SC2 since SC2 highlights different skill sets. Top Top players are probably still going to be good, but below that we could see some shifting in placement.
Yeah I agree here. The BW macro is a completely unnecessary skill set to have in SC2. Imo WC3 players are more likely to be great at SC2 than BW players, as that's more of a micro oriented RTS. Then again most WC3 players only became average, and arn't really a force to be reckoned with in the GSL.
WC3 has pretty much nothing in common with SC2. Units die far faster in SC2 than WC3. There are no heroes. There are no items. There are far fewer active abilities. There is no upkeep.
BW and SC2 have alot of similarities outside of the UI improvements. Still need to be able to macro (though it's easier), multitask, balance economy, have attack timings, etc. etc. It's no coincidence that Mvp was dominating before his injury.
I wonder how much more he will be able to do compared to SC2 pros. Unless he invents a few new micro tricks (which he probably will), I don't see him being so absurdly dominant mechanics-wise like he was in BW, as the skill gap at the highest level really isn't that big, especially concerning mechanics.
Flash always with the right attitude towards the game and the competition.
I think these bunch of guys who are currently BW progamers, TBLS for example, are different in the case of Boxer or Nada or July in the sense that they are still at their competitive peaks and still within the infrastructure of a team. I have no doubt that when the crossover has been made, it will be pwnage once again, as if it needed to be said.
Flash is the guy who got me into the BW scene! Kinda glad he's playing SC2 but I really hope they go with the mixed format in ProLeague so I can continue following my favorite BW player.
Its time. Mixed feelings on losing Flash from BW but it is very exciting that he is going to SC2. Good Luck to whomever he faces in the future, they will need it.
On April 30 2012 11:27 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I wonder how much more he will be able to do compared to SC2 pros. Unless he invents a few new micro tricks (which he probably will), I don't see him being so absurdly dominant mechanics-wise like he was in BW, as the skill gap at the highest level really isn't that big, especially concerning mechanics.
On April 30 2012 11:51 bro_fenix wrote: Look out a God might emerge. Hopefully our Foreign players can stand against them, at least in time! Good luck all! Have fun.
Time seems to work against foreigners. More foreigners were in GSL at the beginning than there are now. I believe we had Morrow, Jinro and Idra all in there at one time.
On April 30 2012 11:51 bro_fenix wrote: Look out a God might emerge. Hopefully our Foreign players can stand against them, at least in time! Good luck all! Have fun.
Time seems to work against foreigners. More foreigners were in GSL at the beginning than there are now. I believe we had Morrow, Jinro and Idra all in there at one time.
I think even Artosis qualified for a GSL one time. One of the first ;]
On April 30 2012 11:51 bro_fenix wrote: Look out a God might emerge. Hopefully our Foreign players can stand against them, at least in time! Good luck all! Have fun.
Time seems to work against foreigners. More foreigners were in GSL at the beginning than there are now. I believe we had Morrow, Jinro and Idra all in there at one time.
I think even Artosis qualified for a GSL one time. One of the first ;]
On April 30 2012 11:51 bro_fenix wrote: Look out a God might emerge. Hopefully our Foreign players can stand against them, at least in time! Good luck all! Have fun.
Time seems to work against foreigners. More foreigners were in GSL at the beginning than there are now. I believe we had Morrow, Jinro and Idra all in there at one time.
I think even Artosis qualified for a GSL one time. One of the first ;]
On April 30 2012 11:27 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I wonder how much more he will be able to do compared to SC2 pros. Unless he invents a few new micro tricks (which he probably will), I don't see him being so absurdly dominant mechanics-wise like he was in BW, as the skill gap at the highest level really isn't that big, especially concerning mechanics.
Is there a reason why no one ever talks about Jangbi as a BW legend? I mean come on, hes a beast still. And hes ranked second in KeSpa above everyone except Flash. Anyone know anything about Jangbi and SC2?
Sorry this may have been a little off topic but I'm just curious.
On April 30 2012 11:27 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I wonder how much more he will be able to do compared to SC2 pros. Unless he invents a few new micro tricks (which he probably will), I don't see him being so absurdly dominant mechanics-wise like he was in BW, as the skill gap at the highest level really isn't that big, especially concerning mechanics.
Is there a reason why no one ever talks about Jangbi as a BW legend? I mean come on, hes a beast still. And hes ranked second in KeSpa above everyone except Flash. Anyone know anything about Jangbi and SC2?
Sorry this may have been a little off topic but I'm just curious.
Jangbi IS a BW legend, and plenty of people in the BW forums talk about him and are fans of him. He's just overshadowed by Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. because he hasn't had AS much success as them overall. He's still one of the top players of the game, though.
Btw, anyone else that will just wait for Flash to nerf the mule in some way? It just feels right to think that he will find out some way to really abuse it to the max into his standard gameplay without anyone really being able to take advantage of that.
On April 30 2012 11:27 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I wonder how much more he will be able to do compared to SC2 pros. Unless he invents a few new micro tricks (which he probably will), I don't see him being so absurdly dominant mechanics-wise like he was in BW, as the skill gap at the highest level really isn't that big, especially concerning mechanics.
Is there a reason why no one ever talks about Jangbi as a BW legend? I mean come on, hes a beast still. And hes ranked second in KeSpa above everyone except Flash. Anyone know anything about Jangbi and SC2?
Sorry this may have been a little off topic but I'm just curious.
Jangbi IS a BW legend, and plenty of people in the BW forums talk about him and are fans of him. He's just overshadowed by Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. because he hasn't had AS much success as them overall. He's still one of the top players of the game, though.
Mostly because Jangbi slumped for like 2 years. Like really badly slumped. He has had a resurgence within the last year though but I'm sure he lost many fans during his dry spell.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
You hope that a living legend of one of the greatest and defining games in the history of esports performs 'mediocre' so you can say "HA! That online article was wrong!"
Why can't people think before they post?
On topic though - the fact he is finding SC2 as a source to reinvigorate him scares me; i look forward to seeing his skill translate and dominate
On April 30 2012 11:51 bro_fenix wrote: Look out a God might emerge. Hopefully our Foreign players can stand against them, at least in time! Good luck all! Have fun.
Time seems to work against foreigners. More foreigners were in GSL at the beginning than there are now. I believe we had Morrow, Jinro and Idra all in there at one time.
I don't remember Morrow ever being at the higher levels of GSL. Open season 3 was the first time Jinro made it through the qualifiers. That and Code S season 1 were the only seasons he and Idra shared, and I'm nearly positive I would have noticed if Morrow was in either of them.
You are right that there were more foreigners. Artosis and Torch in the first open season. TLO in the first 2. Idra the first 3. Ret and Haypro the 3rd. Sen at least the 3rd.
On April 30 2012 11:51 bro_fenix wrote: Look out a God might emerge. Hopefully our Foreign players can stand against them, at least in time! Good luck all! Have fun.
Time seems to work against foreigners. More foreigners were in GSL at the beginning than there are now. I believe we had Morrow, Jinro and Idra all in there at one time.
Foreigners = really bad / inconsistent when they live outside of korea.
Foreigners that live in korea full time = proven to be capable of code S (see Naniwa, HuK).
players like IdrA play no-name scrubs all day on the NA ladder, meanwhile players like Naniwa and the korean pro's are playing code A / code S players all day in the korean GM league. therefore the "only hope" for foreigners is for more to step it up and live full-time in korea like Naniwa.
this applies to Flash in a way as well. If he only practices SC2 with his BW teammates who are also new to sc2, he will never be as good as Parting / DRG/ MKP because in order to dominate right now you need to have teammates/ practice partners who are also top Code S level who are willing to share their secrets/ knowledge of the current metagame with you.
LOL jk.. I quit BW before Flash was this superhuman. I"m old school with nada/yellow/boxer/reach/intotherainbow.... I doubt flash can dominate like he has BW. Different game.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
Why do you care if a "thread" is "wrong"?
Because he will feel smart for telling us "I told you so".
Sadly, that thread has been misunderstood and misread for so long, and its implications and points twisted enough, that unless Flash utterly dominates from the very instant SC2 is being publicly played by BW teams, the people who hate that thread will have a field day. There literally will be posts like "I DONT SEE NO ELEPHANT?!?" etc etc after Flash loses his very first publicly played game to a player who didnt play BW. I feel that the elephant thread is pretty true, but it should never have been written because it never will sway one perspective to the other side. Everyone who played BW for years understands what hes trying to say, and everyone who only played SC2 just doesnt want to hear that kind of thing.
All in all if the article had to be posted it should have been worded differently. Because now it and all its points have been taken and twisted to the point where theres no end result that will convince either "side" they were wrong. I think its best just to let the BW players have some time to learn the game and figure out how it works fundamentally, that way they can apply their own approach in time. There is a great chance they will be behind for awhile at first. Thats normal. But their team house infrastructure and training methods are going to produce some great players eventually. I hope that people will give them some time to catch up before claiming there is (was) no elephant.
I can't imagine Flash not dominating SC2 after a while. I admit I'm not an avid fan of SC2 like I am BW in terms of the professional scene. But it's quite clear that someone with great gamesense would excel in it. You can argue that Flash's mechanics and macro may be nerfed in a game that has a skill cap on such things. But Flash's game sense, something many BW fans feel is basically maphack, will do wonders for his success in SC2.
There are certainly going to be BW players who will suffer with the transition. With BW, there is a very high entrance level in terms of APM. If you don't have a high APM, you can't play the game. For this reason, many players with great mechanics but less game management skills can excel in BW through sheer superior control. And these players may not perform as well in SC2.
But the very best BW players will almost certainly be beastly after the transition. In fact, I can easily imagine someone like Stork, who's getting older and falling in micro/apm, perform perhaps better with less strain on mechanics.
On April 30 2012 11:27 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I wonder how much more he will be able to do compared to SC2 pros. Unless he invents a few new micro tricks (which he probably will), I don't see him being so absurdly dominant mechanics-wise like he was in BW, as the skill gap at the highest level really isn't that big, especially concerning mechanics.
Is there a reason why no one ever talks about Jangbi as a BW legend? I mean come on, hes a beast still. And hes ranked second in KeSpa above everyone except Flash. Anyone know anything about Jangbi and SC2?
Sorry this may have been a little off topic but I'm just curious.
Jangbi IS a BW legend, and plenty of people in the BW forums talk about him and are fans of him. He's just overshadowed by Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, etc. because he hasn't had AS much success as them overall. He's still one of the top players of the game, though.
Mostly because Jangbi slumped for like 2 years. Like really badly slumped. He has had a resurgence within the last year though but I'm sure he lost many fans during his dry spell.
Haha, well he's my favorite BW player and has been for the past three years. It just makes me excited whenever his name pops up. Is he not on Stork's level? Haven't followed him as much recently.
On April 30 2012 14:14 Juvant wrote: If he does mediocre, that would basically confirm the worries of SC2 having a significantly lower skill cap than BW.
And if he wins it means that SC2 is a very easy game right?
On April 30 2012 14:14 Juvant wrote: If he does mediocre, that would basically confirm the worries of SC2 having a significantly lower skill cap than BW.
And if he wins it means that SC2 is very easy right?
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre, the elephant thread will be filled with "Flash lost 2 games in the last PL finals, he was in a decline and not very good at the time he switched." :D
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre, the elephant thread will be filled with "Flash lost 2 games in the last PL finals, he was in a decline and not very good at the time he switched." :D
If you were a pro in base ball and you were forced to go pro in golf and the transition to golf caused you some major hiccups in your game because you have relearn everything from the ground . But you are still hitting the right scores making pars when you need to although still mediocre compared to your glorious day in base ball .
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre, the elephant thread will be filled with "Flash lost 2 games in the last PL finals, he was in a decline and not very good at the time he switched." :D
If you were a pro in base ball and you were forced to go pro in golf and the transition to golf caused you some major hiccups in your game because you have relearn everything from the ground . But you are still hitting the right scores making pars when you need to although still mediocre compared to your glorious day in base ball .
Meh........
Hopefully he won't be like Michael Jordan playing baseball.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
Why do you care if a "thread" is "wrong"?
Because he will feel smart for telling us "I told you so".
Sadly, that thread has been misunderstood and misread for so long, and its implications and points twisted enough, that unless Flash utterly dominates from the very instant SC2 is being publicly played by BW teams, the people who hate that thread will have a field day. There literally will be posts like "I DONT SEE NO ELEPHANT?!?" etc etc after Flash loses his very first publicly played game to a player who didnt play BW. I feel that the elephant thread is pretty true, but it should never have been written because it never will sway one perspective to the other side. Everyone who played BW for years understands what hes trying to say, and everyone who only played SC2 just doesnt want to hear that kind of thing.
All in all if the article had to be posted it should have been worded differently. Because now it and all its points have been taken and twisted to the point where theres no end result that will convince either "side" they were wrong. I think its best just to let the BW players have some time to learn the game and figure out how it works fundamentally, that way they can apply their own approach in time. There is a great chance they will be behind for awhile at first. Thats normal. But their team house infrastructure and training methods are going to produce some great players eventually. I hope that people will give them some time to catch up before claiming there is (was) no elephant.
The bolded is the most important part, and which is why i think the elephant thread is crap. It literally has nothing to do with the fact that they played brood war, it has to do with how they train for sc2.
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
I dont think you understand. Flash is a demigod. He could play any game and still own noobs all day long.
On April 29 2012 19:42 KristofferAG wrote: I don't really want Flash to leave BW any time soon, I'm a bit scared that he wont be as good in SC2 as he is in the old school game. I mean, it took him years to get good with BW, and he was young when he started. A young mind can more easily learn thing than an adult mind.
Either way I do look forward to seeing him at least play SC2.
I dont think you understand. Flash is a demigod. He could play any game and still own noobs all day long.
Besides; As a 19 year old, Flash is still young and has plenty of years left before his reactions, mechanics etc. start slowing down.
I don't expect Flash to dominate from the get-go, but if he's having as much fun as the article suggests, then it is only a matter of time before he starts winning everything. His great mechanics coupled with his "map-hack" gamesense should be a winning formula in SC2, just as it has been in BW.
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
Yea the problem with all the examples you listed is that they were retired or almost retired and out of their prime by the time they switched. And they still get pretty good results! It would be like saying "Hey Michael Jordan is the greatest basket ball player ever, he can most definitely win against anyone right now." Yes, Michael Jordan was the greatest but he is out of his prime. Now if you said "Lets take a time machine back to the mid 1990's and get Michael Jordan, then lets take him to the future and pit him against people." That would be a more accurate representation of taking someone at the very tip-top of their form.
The main reason people are saying they will dominate is because they have proven themselves to be at the top of the most competitive video gaming scene in history. They have the drive, the work ethic, the practice environment, and the mentality to succeed at all costs. This is proven by their success. These traits are what assure dominance.
Except Boxer, July, and Nada in their primes (magically brought to our present time via time machine) would still lose to Flash. They were revolutionary in their respective time periods and contributed hugely to the future of the game, but the competition is just way tougher now.
On April 30 2012 00:50 Mr Showtime wrote: Honestly, I'm mostly excited about this because it will finally end the statements: "Yea, but when the BW players switch over....."
Whether Flash is sick good at SC2 or nothing special, I'll be satisfied when I don't have to listen to that shit anymore.
Nah if the BW players dominate, they will just rub it in your face. And if they aren't as dominant as they all thought, they will just blame it on the SC2 engine for "not having a high skill ceiling".
Thats because it doesn't
It's a poor excuse. You don't need a high skill to shoot a ball into a basket, but you aren't Lebron James either.
Rofl wtf? That has a ridiculously high skill ceiling.... esp if you account for the part where you have to dribble and move around before shooting the ball into the basket while someone is trying to stop you.
I don't think you could have come up with a worse example.
On April 29 2012 23:54 malaan wrote: why does everyone auto-assume they will dominate.. the results of BW players in SC2 are seriously varied. Lets just look at Boxer for example, great at broodwar but no where near that level in SC2 (although he made code S, he didnt last long)
Nada also has yet to really do anything, repeatedly dropping into Code A.
Players like Flash, Bisu, Savior, they are mechanical beasts and seriously dominant at broodwar but it does not mean it will translate over to SC2.
Yea the problem with all the examples you listed is that they were retired or almost retired and out of their prime by the time they switched. And they still get pretty good results! It would be like saying "Hey Michael Jordan is the greatest basket ball player ever, he can most definitely win against anyone right now." Yes, Michael Jordan was the greatest but he is out of his prime. Now if you said "Lets take a time machine back to the mid 1990's and get Michael Jordan, then lets take him to the future and pit him against people." That would be a more accurate representation of taking someone at the very tip-top of their form.
The main reason people are saying they will dominate is because they have proven themselves to be at the top of the most competitive video gaming scene in history. They have the drive, the work ethic, the practice environment, and the mentality to succeed at all costs. This is proven by their success. These traits are what assure dominance.
Except Boxer, July, and Nada in their primes (magically brought to our present time via time machine) would still lose to Flash. They were revolutionary in their respective time periods and contributed hugely to the future of the game, but the competition is just way tougher now.
While that Might be true, its a wierd discussion. Flash being the greatest BW player of all time doesnt change the fact that BW pros overall, and specifically BW pros who were on the rise as they made the switch to sc2, are the players that are having, and historically have had the greatest success in sc2. So the statement that having skill in BW doesnt translate to sc2 is just plain false... Flash is definately in his prime right now, and i am completely sure that this will carry over.
Also, to everyone debating about skill, the real reason i like this article is that it shows that flash is TRYING to be good at the game. That goes a long way. See 14 year old maru, 16 year old leenock, xx years old marineking, they all just try their hearts out.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
Why would KT lower his salary just because he plays SC2 instead of BW? Also, it's more than likely that all BW pros will switch over or retire - it's actually pretty safe that they will. Have you even followed the discussions the last couple weeks?
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
I said if he fully switch over to SC2(means stopped playing BW and played SC2 full time),will they give him the same salary as they did in BW? It's still not a guarantee that he will dominate SC2 yet.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
I said if he fully switch over to SC2(means stopped playing BW and played SC2 full time),will they give him the same salary as they did in BW? It's still not a guarantee that he will dominate SC2 yet.
I think it is a matter of player plays for team, not player plays certain game..
That said, it is indeed not certain that the current height is sustainable (in terms of popularity or results), due to switching games..
Judging by some of these comments we'll might as well give all SC2 winnings to Flash right now. He has huge potential in SC2, but it's still only potential untill he starts crushing nerds.
If the BW pros enter SC2 it'll be at HotS as it'll level the playing field somewha. This will make pro HotS awesome by default.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
And even if, that's perfectly ok. He is most certainly the last generation of prime players with such a high salary in BW, considering BW is one day not gonna be here anymore. It can't always go up or stay up if the industry around you is in struggle. A player has a certain value, yes, but that value depends on what quality brand exposure he can bring to his sponsors. Even if it goes down, it should go up if SC2 succeeds in korea and he manages to be successful.
And about that. I'm one of those guys here who quit playing & watching SC2 because of various reasons, but I will watch Flash and the rest of the players because I'm very interested to see how they are doing. For one, these are teams I watched for so many years and two, I just like the players. To me this is no SC2 vs BW. It's simply watching my favorite players and teams.
I sincerely hope for their well being that they enjoy SC2 and this project is successful. It's just something you wish for these kids who you know live a very special life in a very special environment. Something we never had before. And it would be great if they are able to entertain, compete and live on their dream, regardless of what game they play.
So regardless of what I think about SC2. I will watch them, and I will cheer for them.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
I said if he fully switch over to SC2(means stopped playing BW and played SC2 full time),will they give him the same salary as they did in BW? It's still not a guarantee that he will dominate SC2 yet.
A lot of eSports salaries aren't performance based.
From my knowledge BW teams give incentives and bonuses for wins, but that's what those are. They're separated from salaries for a reason.
Its kinda funny because you know people are going to be jumping to conclusions after his first couple of broadcasted games. TBH I think it will be a lot like when MVP switched, there are many similarities.
MVP first switched and received a lot of hype as a practice monster ECT but it took a while to translate into actual results. I remember watching his games vs Zenio in Open S2 where he was the first person I had ever seen micro marines against banelings like that. This was in Ro32 so even before the MKP/Kyrix games where MKP became famous for his marine micro.
You could tell the guy was going to be amazing but he still lost that series and ended up losing to Choya in the Ro8 next season. Then after a few months, he came into GSL Jan and dominated for basically a year.
Obviously Flash is a better BW player than MVP by a lot and he will still have a full BW team training environment to help him so its going to be interesting. I still think it will take a while for him to really dominate though.
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
I said if he fully switch over to SC2(means stopped playing BW and played SC2 full time),will they give him the same salary as they did in BW? It's still not a guarantee that he will dominate SC2 yet.
I dont think you understand the level of how good Flash is. All you probally hearing is "yea he is the best bw player atm". But reality is, he is known for his decision making because whatever the opponent does, he knows exactly how to stop it and get 1-2 steps ahead (He isnt known for number 1 mechanics, but for decision making). How do you beat a guy who knows "everything". The guy who always knows how to deal with things and makes the BEST possible decision making? He is practically not human, like a computer totally designed to give you the best decision possible to deal with things. He knows the answer to like 99% of things. Thats what makes him good.
If SC2 is a game that lets easier mechanics but heavier on the decision making part, there is no doubt flash will do GREAT at sc2. The question is how good he will be because its alot easier to execute (Because everyone else can do the same as well).
god DAMN THIS IS the most exciting thing I ever I had to stop myself from all capsing this entire post :@~~
Looking sooo forward to flash in 4 months and flash in 1 year hhnnnng
After OSL, hopefully Flash can spend more time in SC2. He is now at his peak of his prime and established his name in BW and has earned so much money at just 19 years old. Now its time for him to dominate SC2.
But i dunno whether it is a wise choice though. Money is a huge factor though. The salary which he earned now is WAY WAY MORE than he will earned in SC2 if he fully switch over. BW has been around forever and more established and SC2 is still fresh and new. Personally, I hope he will fully switch over but its highly unlikely i think.
I don't think his salary will be affected at all since KeSPA and the KT team is switching aswell and he has his contract.
I said if he fully switch over to SC2(means stopped playing BW and played SC2 full time),will they give him the same salary as they did in BW? It's still not a guarantee that he will dominate SC2 yet.
I dont think you understand the level of how good Flash is. All you probally hearing is "yea he is the best bw player atm". But reality is, he is known for his decision making because whatever the opponent does, he knows exactly how to stop it and get 1-2 steps ahead (He isnt known for number 1 mechanics, but for decision making). How do you beat a guy who knows "everything". The guy who always knows how to deal with things and makes the BEST possible decision making? He is practically not human, like a computer totally designed to give you the best decision possible to deal with things. He knows the answer to like 99% of things. Thats what makes him good.
If SC2 is a game that lets easier mechanics but heavier on the decision making part, there is no doubt flash will do GREAT at sc2. The question is how good he will be because its alot easier to execute (Because everyone else can do the same as well).
First of all, to understand and be "step ahead of everyone" you need to know the game fully. It takes alot of time to understand SC2, and it took Flash many years to get that good at BW. Also coaches even said that those who were bad at BW were good at SC2 etc so BW skill does not directly translate in to SC2. Many players also have said that BW and SC2 are very different game.
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
Many people here talk about that players are in their "peak" but they dont understand what this "peak" means. It does not mean that they are at their physical peak perfomance point, but it means that their results are at peak. Why did Boxer and other once best players of the BW started to fall? Because simply better players entered in the game and outplayed them.
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win...
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win...
What? Was MKP or MVP or whatever winrates in bw lately same as his current peak?
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win...
What? Was MKP or MVP or whatever winrates in bw lately same as his current peak?
no he means the best in bw have the same winrates as the best in sc2
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win...
What? Was MKP or MVP or whatever winrates in bw lately same as his current peak?
no he means the best in bw have the same winrates as the best in sc2
Of course they are similar because they kinda dominate the sc2 currently. But it actually supports what I just said in my previous post. Those who were not so good at BW are now very good at SC2.
On April 30 2012 22:14 Mongolbonjwa wrote: no he means the best in bw have the same winrates as the best in sc2
Of course they are similar because they kinda dominate the sc2 currently. But it actually supports what I just said in my previous post. Those who were not so good at BW are now very good at SC2.[/QUOTE]
No you said: "so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins." I'm saying that's bullshit. Try and back it up with stats. People who are good at mechanics and decision-making win. There is no one anywhere near the skill ceiling yet and I don't think there ever will be.
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win...
What? Was MKP or MVP or whatever winrates in bw lately same as his current peak?
no he means the best in bw have the same winrates as the best in sc2
Of course they are similar because they kinda dominate the sc2 currently. But it actually supports what I just said in my previous post. Those who were not so good at BW are now very good at SC2.
well nobody knows if the top of bw will dominate sc2 too, but there is the fact ( i think^^) that you can have the same winrates as in bw at least. and till now there is no bw topstar who has failed i think, could be wrong though
I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters.
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins.
People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win...
What? Was MKP or MVP or whatever winrates in bw lately same as his current peak?
no he means the best in bw have the same winrates as the best in sc2
Of course they are similar because they kinda dominate the sc2 currently. But it actually supports what I just said in my previous post. Those who were not so good at BW are now very good at SC2.
It doesn't supports anything. Cause not only can people change (scary I know), people have different things that they each excels at
On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters.
Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters.
Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
I would not say GSL is consistent, people drop to code A and rise up to code S constantly and championship titles are given to different players all the time. It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters.
Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
On April 30 2012 23:17 Mech0z wrote: If these stars switch it might make SC2 bigger than LOL which apparently is taking over as the biggest esport in Korea?
Remains to be seen obviously, but i also do question the longevity of LoL as a esport, i wonder what kind of presence DOTA 2 will have.
But SC2's popularity will undoubtedly go up with Kespa on board, question is how much? Will be interesting to see where we are at come late 2012, how popular is the game and what effect will HotS have.
I bet Blizzard is trying to get some good feedback on units for that expansion that will have a positive effect on the game and make even more exciting.
On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote: I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters.
Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
I would not say GSL is consistent, people drop to code A and rise up to code S constantly and championship titles are given to different players all the time. It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Comparing the last 2 major tournaments: the jinair osl and abcmart msl. 4 of the same 16 people in the round of 16. 4... so much for consistency. Comparing the 24 in the osl currently going on and the last one: 11 of the same people out of 24. It's just selective memory thinking that there is SO much more consistency in broodwar. The only thing that was once consistent was flash winning. And even that may not be so consistent anymore...
On April 30 2012 23:16 zergmacro34 wrote: bw is dead
long live sc2!
This is asking for a flame war.
If you take it into the context of the original usage (Kingly succession), not so much.
Anyway, people who have no idea how BW was played shouldn't really make predictions on how players will eventually perform in SC2.
MVP, who was the most mechanically proficient BW-player who switched (removing Nada from the equation, since his mechanics were probably better but who lacked a lot of the technical proficiency required in the modern era of BW), dominated during his peak. ForGG, a timing/build-order/strategic mind with monster macro, is a Code S player but hasn't really shined all that much. Hyun, an A-teamer from MBC (granted, he was the only decent Zerg at that time), is improving fast but is showing bad results atm.
This means that while there is a transfer of skills from one game to the other, the results cannot really be predicted because players have different strengths. For instance, I would still take ForGG over MVP any day in a BW series, but I would take MVP any day in a SC2 series. That's simply because MVP's skills transferred over better.
Now if you take Flash, whose skills are all at the highest level in BW, and put him in SC2, then you can definitely say he'll succeed, because he was so versatile in BW with no real weakness. Whatever made MVP, MKP, MMA etc succeed will be skills that Flash already possesses in a more abundant way. So really, I think that those who don't know the different strengths/weaknesses of the players in BW shouldn't attempt to make predictions.
On April 30 2012 23:16 zergmacro34 wrote: bw is dead
long live sc2!
This is asking for a flame war.
If you take it into the context of the original usage (Kingly succession), not so much.
Anyway, people who have no idea how BW was played shouldn't really make predictions on how players will eventually perform in SC2.
MVP, who was the most mechanically proficient BW-player who switched (removing Nada from the equation, since his mechanics were probably better but who lacked a lot of the technical proficiency required in the modern era of BW), dominated during his peak. ForGG, a timing/build-order/strategic mind with monster macro, is a Code S player but hasn't really shined all that much. Hyun, an A-teamer from MBC (granted, he was the only decent Zerg at that time), is improving fast but is showing bad results atm.
This means that while there is a transfer of skills from one game to the other, the results cannot really be predicted because players have different strengths. For instance, I would still take ForGG over MVP any day in a BW series, but I would take MVP any day in a SC2 series. That's simply because MVP's skills transferred over better.
Now if you take Flash, whose skills are all at the highest level in BW, and put him in SC2, then you can definitely say he'll succeed, because he was so versatile in BW with no real weakness. Whatever made MVP, MKP, MMA etc succeed will be skills that Flash already possesses in a more abundant way. So really, I think that those who don't know the different strengths/weaknesses of the players in BW shouldn't attempt to make predictions.
Well if you do that here people will say you are restricting their right to freedom of speech based on their knowledge in the subject at hand just because they didn't play bw.
On April 30 2012 23:39 Mongolbonjwa wrote: What are those strenghts and weaknesses if you know them? What is the thing that makes MVP succesful in sc2 but forgg not?
Mvp has been playing for a lot longer than forGG has. Flash is not gonna appear and rape everyone after a month either. As Polt said, the s class players will dominate but it'll take them a few months, because the game is different. Plus some people just are better at sc2, some are better at bw, some are good at both.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
I loled!
You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
I loled!
You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
Every other prior gsl winner but fruitdealer was still code s at the beginning of this season...
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
MVP is still more relevant than anyone on that list, but that's beside the point completely. In fact, MVP + Nestea combines has over half of all GSL winnings (much more if we include other major tournaments, or the fact that both of them didn't really enter the scene until s2 or s3)
First sc1 bonjwa didn't happen until 2005, a good 5 or 6 years after game releases. Don't compare different things now
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
I loled!
You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
I didn't want to waste time to see what each of those tourneys were. Just did they have a winner that I could find listed quickly. I only started watching when flash won everything that ever mattered... Also to be fair he beat crazy-hydra, shine, and stats who aren't bad.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
To bring this back to the thread, I hate when people say sc2 is more random then have no stats to back it up. It seems like skill matters just as much as in bw, which is why I can't wait for the bw pros to switch. I have a feeling flash will absolutely tear it up very quickly when he switches over.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, but isn't it premature to compare accomplishments from Wings of Liberty to accomplishments in Brood War? I'm not the only one who remembers when Zileas and Agent911 were the best BW players in the world, right?
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
mc faded? he was in the code s round of 16 this very season
MC got back into Code S via MLG after he dropped out. I think he would have feel into Code A/B for a very long time if not for that. His showing this current GSL was very poor.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
I loled!
You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
I didn't want to waste time to see what each of those tourneys were. Just did they have a winner that I could find listed quickly. I only started watching when flash won everything that ever mattered... Also to be fair he beat crazy-hydra, shine, and stats who aren't bad.
If you don't know something, you should either
A. Learn about it B. Don't comment on it or... C. Look like an idiot for pretending you know something about a subject you have absolutely no clue about.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
I loled!
You sir, may not have seen a single game of BW. Nor can you apparently use TLPD with any sort of skill. But seeing Firefist between Jaedong and Flash is just hilarious.
I didn't want to waste time to see what each of those tourneys were. Just did they have a winner that I could find listed quickly. I only started watching when flash won everything that ever mattered... Also to be fair he beat crazy-hydra, shine, and stats who aren't bad.
If you don't know something, you should either
A. Learn about it B. Don't comment on it or... C. Look like an idiot for pretending you know something about a subject you have absolutely no clue about.
Want to see only OSL's, MSL's and WCG? Luxury, Jaedong, Calm, Bisu, Flash, Jaedong. That would prove my point even more. 5 different people out of 6 tourneys. Happy now? It still proves my point, whether you like it or not.
On May 01 2012 00:23 Altercate wrote: Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, but isn't it premature to compare accomplishments from Wings of Liberty to accomplishments in Brood War? I'm not the only one who remembers when Zileas and Agent911 were the best BW players in the world, right?
On May 01 2012 00:27 Gescom wrote: MC got back into Code S via MLG after he dropped out. I think he would have feel into Code A/B for a very long time if not for that. His showing this current GSL was very poor.
no, it wasn't, he made it past the first round. how is that very poor? that would mean 3/4 of the players did very poorly each season.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
What changes in the game of swimming or the game of curling over that time period? Nothing, the players just get better or worse? Doesn't really refute your point, but felt like saying it. My point wasn't that because it was more rare they dominated for the off season as well, but that if you are the best at one time in your career in gaming with SCBW or SC2, that in SCBW you had the maximum of 2 events you could win where as then for the GSL you could have 5 tournaments, and if you include the outside events add 10? I'm not saying he won while being bad, but that the feat of winning that many events is not bonjwa status because he didn't dominate an era like a flash/jd
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The problem with SC2 is far from who wins tournaments, its actually in the game itself. But we had have enough of those and either of the sides of the brawl doesn't want to concede.
Thing is, will Flash destroy everybody in SC2 proving the competition so far has been a farce? Or will Flash stay at the roster of the common top tier pro players? Which would lead us to two new questions: is SC2 cropping out the difference between a god and the mortals (which I think that it is what is gonna happen)? Will SC2 ever be fixed to bring back that difference?
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The problem with SC2 is far from who wins tournaments, its actually in the game itself. But we had have enough of those and either of the sides of the brawl doesn't want to concede.
Thing is, will Flash destroy everybody in SC2 proving the competition so far has been a farce? Or will Flash stay at the roster of the common top tier pro players? Which would lead us to two new questions: is SC2 cropping out the difference between a god and the mortals (which I think that it is what is gonna happen)? Will SC2 ever be fixed to bring back that difference?
unless he does dominate, in which case everyone can embrace sc2 since it does't crop out that difference.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The problem with SC2 is far from who wins tournaments, its actually in the game itself. But we had have enough of those and either of the sides of the brawl doesn't want to concede.
Thing is, will Flash destroy everybody in SC2 proving the competition so far has been a farce? Or will Flash stay at the roster of the common top tier pro players? Which would lead us to two new questions: is SC2 cropping out the difference between a god and the mortals (which I think that it is what is gonna happen)? Will SC2 ever be fixed to bring back that difference?
I like your post the first one that actually had a solid point. Even mine so far were just ramblings
Flash probably won't be the only one back on top, but the BW pros will probably prove that what we have so far has been a farce, and if they're not leagues about the rest I think/hope that Blizzard would use the next to games (if competition became stale) to fix that. Though with them who knows. The company seems to be on a downturn with their other series just making pretty games that require no intelligent thought by the player.
I'm so glad that flash seems like he's having fun playing. I would hate if someone with so much talent such as himself was playing without the passion they had in BW. After all, the passion, the fun, and the competition is whats most important. I don't really care if he's not on top of the competitive scene like he was in BW. As long as he's enjoying himself. Because he deserves it.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The problem with SC2 is far from who wins tournaments, its actually in the game itself. But we had have enough of those and either of the sides of the brawl doesn't want to concede.
Thing is, will Flash destroy everybody in SC2 proving the competition so far has been a farce? Or will Flash stay at the roster of the common top tier pro players? Which would lead us to two new questions: is SC2 cropping out the difference between a god and the mortals (which I think that it is what is gonna happen)? Will SC2 ever be fixed to bring back that difference?
unless he does dominate, in which case everyone can embrace sc2 since it does't crop out that difference.
right?
Athletes that won back-to-back olympic golds, also dominated and held world records between each olympics in minor events.
Its highly likely that if we doubled the amount of starleagues in Flash's dominating run, he would have won those as well doubling his medal tally. When Flash was in his peak it wasn't even a contest, he was going 3:0 3:1 in grandfinals with builds that made you go "WTF am I still watching BW?" and this spanned between 3-4 seasons.
Example Seeing 14cc into 1-1-1 Valkonic (never really seen before in this style), is like if you saw MVP go 15CC into Marine Raven in the grandfinal. Next game, 14CC into Mass Goliath/Stim Marine +1 with 1-2 medics, which is like (and as rare as) Thor/Marine with no medivacs, just pure firepower.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
It was a response to the claim that:
On May 01 2012 00:18 NoobSkills wrote: Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title
In an OSL, while it is played over the course of 4 months, the seed system completely undermines the fact that it is played over such a long period. If you are "dominating", you will have a seed from the previous StarLeague, so you only play in half the league anyway. Not to mention that you can win an OSL while only scraping through the prelims and group stages, so in no way does winning an OSL mean that you were dominating for the whole 4 months.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
He is also comparing apples and oranges. SCBW tournaments were 4 a year? GSL had how many? SCBW took a long time span while GSL takes about 1.5 months. All of these lead to repeat golds when really it isn't necessarily the player achieving a long period of being solid, but their own race and understanding of that race being the best at that moment and during that moment 5 tournaments happen. MVP's golds are the equivalent to maybe one SCBW gold.
Those were all the tournaments from 1 year. Read what I said. That was everything from 2009 not many many years...
You included non-majors. Other than MSL/OSL I don't really thing the rest count unless you want to throw in GOM/WCG even still you don't have 11 majors happening. Either way my point still stands. Dominating over 4? months (MVP) is about the same as 1 MSL/OSL title. Though I guess so does yours does as well.
What stupid logic. I guess if you win the Olympics that counts as you dominating for 4 years then?
Are the Olympics played over the course of 4 years? Your logic is also flawed.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The problem with SC2 is far from who wins tournaments, its actually in the game itself. But we had have enough of those and either of the sides of the brawl doesn't want to concede.
Thing is, will Flash destroy everybody in SC2 proving the competition so far has been a farce? Or will Flash stay at the roster of the common top tier pro players? Which would lead us to two new questions: is SC2 cropping out the difference between a god and the mortals (which I think that it is what is gonna happen)? Will SC2 ever be fixed to bring back that difference?
unless he does dominate, in which case everyone can embrace sc2 since it does't crop out that difference.
right?
I think Flash dominating will go a long way in proving to any skeptics that SC2 is a game of skill worthy of succeeding BW (not necessarily a better game, per se).
However, I really think we can look at MarineKing right now and say he is almost just that kind of dominating player. At the very least I think MKP proves how consistent one can be at SC2 and that it indeed is a game that rewards the skilled, well-rounded, intelligent player.
Looking at his Liquipedia page - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineKing - you find that MKP has been winning or almost winning things nearly once a month since November 2010. Remember that he hit the scene in a big way all the way back in GSL Open Season 2 with his amazing marine micro and memorable finals against NesTea.
I would very much expect that Flash, if he is truly passionate about the game, will come to dominate the scene. Within a year or so I think he will create a tier of skill above that of our current idea (MVP/DRG/MC/MKP/Parting). I think HOTS will only play into that as it will even the playing field among "newcomers" and SC2 veterans a bit more.
Now, if that doesn't happen, if Flash doesn't rise up to "God tier", then we will have to evaluate that situation. For example, we will need to see where Bisu, Jaedong, and other BW masters are sitting. The possibility is there that SC2 may lend itself to a completely different kind of player and even though I would say that the current BW God-tier has those skills, who can really say for sure? At the very least, I really look forward to watching their games.
On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote: It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
MVP is still more relevant than anyone on that list, but that's beside the point completely. In fact, MVP + Nestea combines has over half of all GSL winnings (much more if we include other major tournaments, or the fact that both of them didn't really enter the scene until s2 or s3)
First sc1 bonjwa didn't happen until 2005, a good 5 or 6 years after game releases. Don't compare different things now
The term "bonjwa" might have been used for the first time around 2005. Boxer hit his peak way before that (2000-2004) but hes called bonjwa anyways.
On May 01 2012 03:14 Kaesebrot wrote: I can't wait, that he starts playing and gets raped by Code-B players. That should shut up all these fanboys on TL!
think of every mistake that players like MVP and MKP make then think about them not only not making that mistake but making an entirely better decision altogether and not only better but faster and more efficient and doing that while expanding and dropping your main, yeah, that is what Flash is going to be like
Honestly, I've never been into RTS until SC2 so I don't know much about Flash beyond what I've heard, but if he's as good as everyone says then I can't wait to see what he's capable of doing with SC2. Pumped!
I always love the amount of discussion anything BW+SC2 brings up on these forums lmao. So much fighting!
Anyway, I've played SC2 since it came out and I've watched BW for the last 4 or so years. I don't really care how FlaSh performs when he first comes across, I just want to see some good matches and hopefully some more players really trying to push the skill ceiling in the top tier of SC2.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
Logical fallacies I believe. If a skilled table tennis player switch to tennis and does mediocre at best, does it mean that tennis has low skill ceiling ?
If sc2 has a low skill ceiling (and believe me, that is not the case at all, I am still waiting for a player to micro as well as the automaton bot or wathever it is called) and skill is fully transmitted from sc1 to sc2 (probably not the case aswell) then Flash would still be the best but have "not so high" winrate.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
Logical fallacies I believe. If a skilled table tennis player switch to tennis and does mediocre at best, does it mean that tennis has low skill ceiling ?
If sc2 has a low skill ceiling (and believe me, that is not the case at all, I am still waiting for a player to micro as well as the automaton bot or wathever it is called) and skill is fully transmitted from sc1 to sc2 (probably not the case aswell) then Flash would still be the best but have "not so high" winrate.
I believe I can say the same for broodwar in this case we haven't reach the skill ceiling and I am sure one of those automaton bots were to be made to micro goons and mutas they will be much more faster than pro gamers these days because it's all done by computation rather than player control . So I find it hard to say broodwar has reach the skill ceiling yet and until players actually can micro as fast as the bots can then it will definitely have reach the skill ceiling .
Sorry but I find your argument a little sarcastic .. Also on the argument of computation and inhuman capabilities computers have against us humans . Who will calculate a complex algorithm much faster ? Will it be a Super computer ? or your math professor ? I find these argument that until we reach the capabilities of robots and super computer than only are we able to reach the skill ceiling a little unrealistic to be truthful. Because there is a limit to how much a human can do compared to a computer without any emotional attachment to it .
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
Logical fallacies I believe. If a skilled table tennis player switch to tennis and does mediocre at best, does it mean that tennis has low skill ceiling ?
If sc2 has a low skill ceiling (and believe me, that is not the case at all, I am still waiting for a player to micro as well as the automaton bot or wathever it is called) and skill is fully transmitted from sc1 to sc2 (probably not the case aswell) then Flash would still be the best but have "not so high" winrate.
Well, you're not too bright if you're waiting for someone to micro as well as the automaton bot because that's simply not physically possible. That has nothing to do with the game's skill ceiling or what have you. It's a result of limited UI, peripherals and the fact that human being cannot physically do two things at the same time. You can't e.g. micro Zerglings like that bot does, because you can't issue 'move' commands the way a computer does, given a single mouse and limited input speed.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a groupie compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
30-46 (39.47%) That was MVP total record in BW matches. A sub 40% winrate with only 80 games played because there were better players to send out.
444-171 (72.20%) That's Flashes current total record. 72% winrate over 600 games. To put that in comparison, the current #2 Elo player is Bisu (argueable top BW protoss) has only a 65% winrate.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
my grandpa is way worse than me at sc2, and you didn't address to his question at all
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
i dont think u know what you are talking about. MVP was starting out then switch games when he was breaking out understand why he didnt get any TV time? and mostly lost his matches? how can he lose matches if he didnt get any play time on tv? realize most of these posters are jumping on SC:BW players bandwagon a little bit to early
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
my grandpa is way worse than me at sc2, and you didn't address to his question at all
I editted my original post the second I wrote it to include actual info. But yes I did answer his question of asking who was better.
To can't even begin to comprehend to imagine a serious question of asking who is better.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
i dont think u know what you are talking about. MVP was starting out then switch games when he was breaking out understand why he didnt get any TV time? and mostly lost his matches? how can he lose matches if he didnt get any play time on tv? realize most of these posters are jumping on SC:BW players bandwagon a little bit to early
Starting to break out? Granted he only played for about 2 years before making the switch, he lost 7/9 of his last matches. You could say he was in a slump when he quit and was getting worse.
Also Flash had almost quadruple the amount of games MVP had in his first 2 years. Wanna know why? Because he was actually winning them.
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
my grandpa is way worse than me at sc2, and you didn't address to his question at all
I editted my original post the second I wrote it to include actual info. But yes I did answer his question of asking who was better.
To can't even begin to comprehend to imagine a serious question of asking who is better.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
i dont think u know what you are talking about. MVP was starting out then switch games when he was breaking out understand why he didnt get any TV time? and mostly lost his matches? how can he lose matches if he didnt get any play time on tv? realize most of these posters are jumping on SC:BW players bandwagon a little bit to early
Starting to break out? Granted he only played for about 2 years before making the switch, he lost 7/9 of his last matches. You could say he was in a slump when he quit and was getting worse.
i could honestly say you never watched any MVPs' games in BW and just making accusations on just stats alone since thats your only argument. i am not saying MVP > Flash in bw since we are all hearing the hype from all the BW/SC2 pros and also BW posters who were here long ago but i am saying, i never understood somebody insulting another professional player by calling them a scrub when a poster isnt even close in skill is a joke
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
The game which MVP won was when MVP dictated the play so it became a game of mechanics rather than strategy.
Same as the most recent Flash vs Fantasy game, when Flash lost to Fantasy after Fantasy started doing tonnes of drop harass even if it meant lower econ in the beginning, because he knew that he could keep Flash occupied and Fantasy could expand much faster and get all his workers mining optimally at the same time. While Flash would be forgetting to build workers, or being slightly off timing with his tech and expansions.
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
any source?
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
best players in bw have about 70% win rate. And judging by an earlier poster, broodwar winners are just as "random" as sc2. There are just a few exceptional cases that arises every few years
Also why wouldn't it make sense for MVP to try harder now than before? people changes all the time. Plenty of people have turn their business from mediocre to multi-million corporation half way through their lives (or most of the case other way around). Personally I went from a straight C student to straight A from 8th to 9th grade, so I just don't see these sorts of arguments have much ground
imo if MVP didn't strain his wrists and had forced to go mech instead, he could've continue his dominating streak. His bio controls is just so much better
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
What how well Flash is going to do will tell us depends on our frame of reference. Do we:
A) Have more faith in Flash's skills as a RTS-gamer than in SC2 not being volatile? B) Have more faith in SC2 not being volatile than Flash's skills as a RTS-gamer?
All who have followed BW to some extent are going to say A, whilst it seems those who have exclusively followed SC2 are going to say B.
With how little anyone has managed to dominate in SC2 so far and Flash's skills BW and workethic, I'm personally inclined to lean towards A.
Before you are going to settle a discussion you are going to have to agree on a frame of reference, which I really doubt that you guys are going to be able to.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
best players in bw have about 70% win rate. And judging by an earlier poster, broodwar winners are just as "random" as sc2. There are just a few exceptional cases that arises every few years
Also why wouldn't it make sense for MVP to try harder now than before? people changes all the time. Plenty of people have turn their business from mediocre to multi-million corporation half way through their lives (or most of the case other way around). Personally I went from a straight C student to straight A from 8th to 9th grade, so I just don't see these sorts of arguments have much ground
imo if MVP didn't strain his wrists and had forced to go mech instead, he could've continue his dominating streak. His bio controls is just so much better
BW players have such low win-rates because of other factors, MVP was winning lots of games from the time he transitioned, but for BW players its an uphill struggle against the best. You also don't have the concept of "sniper" players in teamleague, because teams don't have enough money to afford a salary for those kinds of players. Sniper players will often be sent in favor of top players, because it makes that much of a difference. So for example, Bisu only losing 2 games in PL and getting 3 All-Kills in a row is a much bigger feat considering the fact that he had to face relentless amounts of snipers, even facing 7 5pools in a row. You also will find that SC2 only players will have much lower avg win-rates than those that transitioned from an elite level, like Leenock who was "only" an A+ level Iccup player..
Also Flash lost a lot of easy games in the beginning when he started out, even after he won an OSL at the youngest age, commentators and analysts still thought he had 10% chance of being a good player compared Mind which they thought was a 90% likelihood. Flash was considered a no-skill cheeser when he started out, and often lost dumb games in proleague. I remember a post about the KTCoach or someone exclaiming that Flash's play reeked of Boxer-esque cheese, it took about a year before he started showing his uber-turtly safe solid style. Obviously he is not going to go through the exact same learning path that he did in BW.
If we consider peak moments, Flash had an much higher win rate something like 85%, even Jaedong had a 90% win-rate in ZvZ at one stage.
Flash strained his wrists too and won an OSL with only a couple hours of practise a day before he had to under-go surgery. He was even on painkiller injections during the OSL finals and still won 3:0 convincingly without using Science Vessels (basically a smurf).
Its silly to assume that MVP wasn't trying as hard as he could. Your examples don't make any sense because they are instances of mediocre skill level. Getting an A in 8th grade is nothing like winning a courage tournament. Winning a courage tournament is like being the best maths student in high-school when you are 5 years younger than the top year level, not getting A's in your class rofl. That already takes ridiculous amounts of effort, that if you aren't already trying your best, you simply won't get anywhere near close, when you consider everyone else is trying there utmost best. In school only a few students are actually trying their hardest, even in society and business, its like that.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
best players in bw have about 70% win rate. And judging by an earlier poster, broodwar winners are just as "random" as sc2. There are just a few exceptional cases that arises every few years
Also why wouldn't it make sense for MVP to try harder now than before? people changes all the time. Plenty of people have turn their business from mediocre to multi-million corporation half way through their lives (or most of the case other way around). Personally I went from a straight C student to straight A from 8th to 9th grade, so I just don't see these sorts of arguments have much ground
imo if MVP didn't strain his wrists and had forced to go mech instead, he could've continue his dominating streak. His bio controls is just so much better
Its silly to assume that MVP wasn't trying as hard as he could. Your examples don't make any sense because they are instances of mediocre skill level. Getting an A in 8th grade is nothing like winning a courage tournament. Winning a courage tournament is like being the best maths student in high-school when you are 5 years younger than the top year level, not getting A's in your class rofl. That already takes ridiculous amounts of effort, that if you aren't already trying your best, you simply won't get anywhere near close, when you consider everyone else is trying there utmost best. In school only a few students are actually trying their hardest, even in society and business, its like that.
Are you seriously suggesting that people can't get much better at a later time? And how would you know how hard MVP was trying back then compare to now?
you are taking the examples too literal, and you are completely missing the point. The point is that people improves at different rates, and at different times. Even within every individuals have different results depend on many variables such as environments, time, motivation, etc.
Rating and comparing success of someone now based on his past performance is pretty ridiculous (not to say it probably falls under multiple categories of logical fallacies).
I didn't bother replying to the few paragraphs. Its really just irrelevant rambling
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
any source?
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
any source?
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
After all the hype the guy can basically only dissapoint. I guess he'll be good and heart of the swarm might reset his strategic setback but it will be tough.
Exciting time for SC2. Hope he does well. It would be extremely disappointing if he doesn't see success within a reasonable time frame (like, a year or so imo), not to mention bad for SC2 in Korea.
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
He was in masters before he really knew the basics, while he was waiting for his wrists to heal he got there.
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
any source?
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
any source?
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
I don't know. If after 3 games vs Zerg, he doesn't know what baneling do when it hit him, or Collosus do when it kill the !!!@# of his mech TvP, he's more like an idiot to me. Even my 6 year old cousin knows what baneling can do after 1 game vs Zerg.
Or, the coach just boasted about it. Don't take it serious.
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
my grandpa is way worse than me at sc2, and you didn't address to his question at all
I editted my original post the second I wrote it to include actual info. But yes I did answer his question of asking who was better.
To can't even begin to comprehend to imagine a serious question of asking who is better.
On May 01 2012 17:13 naux wrote:
On May 01 2012 17:06 Zooper31 wrote:
On May 01 2012 16:52 poorcloud wrote:
On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:
On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:
On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote: But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong
If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling.
No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game.
If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other.
Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game.
You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches.
MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2.
i dont think u know what you are talking about. MVP was starting out then switch games when he was breaking out understand why he didnt get any TV time? and mostly lost his matches? how can he lose matches if he didnt get any play time on tv? realize most of these posters are jumping on SC:BW players bandwagon a little bit to early
Starting to break out? Granted he only played for about 2 years before making the switch, he lost 7/9 of his last matches. You could say he was in a slump when he quit and was getting worse.
i could honestly say you never watched any MVPs' games in BW and just making accusations on just stats alone since thats your only argument. i am not saying MVP > Flash in bw since we are all hearing the hype from all the BW/SC2 pros and also BW posters who were here long ago but i am saying, i never understood somebody insulting another professional player by calling them a scrub when a poster isnt even close in skill is a joke
It's been literally 3years since I last saw MVP play BW and I can truthfully say I don't remember how his play was like. But I do have stats that backup what I been saying and thats all I need. People insult pros all the time based on what the optimal way to play would be, theres a set standard to compare them to that they should be rated against. If anything Flash is that standard everyone aims to be, and if that person is so low in the "ladder" of BW players at the time he was struggling to even be considered good I don't see how anyone cannot say he was bad at the time.
All this hype for Flash reminds me of Yellow. Yeah...he didnt do well at all. Also the same for fOrGG, he isn't doing amazing atm and people thought he was the best player because he won a few code A matches.
The reason I feel flash will dominate SC2 is because of his prime decision making, crisp builds, secrecy, and the fact that he will be practicing with players that have unbelievable multitasking, decision making, and an understanding of the fundamentals of what it takes to be a top teir player. I won't take anything away from the SC2 players at all as they have an equal chance of taking games off these pro. However, I feel with the preparation and training that the bw progamers will be receiving to transition to SC2 will out perform any other team/player out there. Specifically, due to the number of coaches (bw teams have one coach per race) and the fact that they have a ton of experience with creating strategies, breaking strategies, creating specific timing attacks per situation, and player analysis.
On May 02 2012 12:47 Blardy wrote: All this hype for Flash reminds me of Yellow. Yeah...he didnt do well at all. Also the same for fOrGG, he isn't doing amazing atm and people thought he was the best player because he won a few code A matches.
These players also didn't have S-Class or A-Class Ex Bw players to practice with. Their forced to train with players who weren't really anything special in Brood War.
Might as well link Flash's mini-speech from the GOM/Blizzard/KeSPA/OGN meeting:
"I thank you all for inviting me to this event. I have practiced alot of SC2 due to it being included in the new season, and had much difficulty learning different things from SC1. I hope to come back to the new season with good quality games. I also wish for the global fans to give support to us SC1 players so we can bring our best games."
On May 02 2012 12:47 Blardy wrote: All this hype for Flash reminds me of Yellow. Yeah...he didnt do well at all. Also the same for fOrGG, he isn't doing amazing atm and people thought he was the best player because he won a few code A matches.
Your post ignore so many facts that I can't list here because it would take too long...
On May 02 2012 12:47 Blardy wrote: All this hype for Flash reminds me of Yellow. Yeah...he didnt do well at all. Also the same for fOrGG, he isn't doing amazing atm and people thought he was the best player because he won a few code A matches.
Yellow, Forgg, and Flash in the same sentence relating to hype. This does not compute. Wtf.
The hype for Yellow was nostalgia hype. The hype for Forgg was "Former A-Teamer" hype. The hype for Flash is "Highest SC Skill of All Time" Hype. I hope you realize there's a difference.
On May 02 2012 12:47 Blardy wrote: All this hype for Flash reminds me of Yellow. Yeah...he didnt do well at all. Also the same for fOrGG, he isn't doing amazing atm and people thought he was the best player because he won a few code A matches.
Yellow, Forgg, and Flash in the same sentence relating to hype. This does not compute. Wtf.
The hype for Yellow was nostalgia hype. The hype for Forgg was "Former A-Teamer" hype. The hype for Flash is "Highest SC Skill of All Time who is performing today AND will perform many more years" Hype. I hope you realize there's a difference.
I would kill for some practice replays. Are they simply adepting the current metagame by studying the current pro bo´s and strategies or will they go "the hard way" and make new, inovative stuff. There is so much potential in multitasking especially in PvT and PvZ.
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
So funny to see people taking an obvious hyperbole and making it seem like a fact.
We're talking about Flash here, not some unknown b-teamer. After few games I'd bet on anything that he would knew what the units did. He may not be entirely comfortable about their full potentials yet , but he would know how the game works.
I know it's perfectly possible for Flash to do exactly what the coach's comment is talking about. But seeing it repeated over and over again makes me want to gouge my eyes. He can get to Masters whenever he wants because he is a terrific RTS player .It doesn't mean he was just fucking around spamming units and 1-aing and then he got to Masters, as the coach's hyperbole suggested.
I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
OMG hes only mid masters what hath you to say about SC2 now brood war elitists?!?!?!
/jokes
That's just Flash after practising 14CC into Mech vs Toss and 14CC into Marine/Ground-Vikings vs Zerg.
Maybe he got bored and bunker rush in every game to masters ... I mean where else he is going to spam his crazy apm since he can't spend time macroing each buildings any more . So might as well just keep rushing to victory .
OMG hes only mid masters what hath you to say about SC2 now brood war elitists?!?!?!
/jokes
Only one thing I can say is prepare for the drop and you won't see it coming until it flashes above all your expansion .I strongly believe bw players now will have superior control in the game in sc2 since macro is out of the way and mbs made macro and easy thing to do right now .
On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
So funny to see people taking an obvious hyperbole and making it seem like a fact.
We're talking about Flash here, not some unknown b-teamer. After few games I'd bet on anything that he would knew what the units did. He may not be entirely comfortable about their full potentials yet , but he would know how the game works.
I know it's perfectly possible for Flash to do exactly what the coach's comment is talking about. But seeing it repeated over and over again makes me want to gouge my eyes. He can get to Masters whenever he wants because he is a terrific RTS player .It doesn't mean he was just fucking around spamming units and 1-aing and then he got to Masters, as the coach's hyperbole suggested.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
I like drama and hopefully I will see some rivalries starting in sc2 . One of my wishes is to see FBH dance and groove and hip thrust to victory after every battle . Come on it's not about the game all the time .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
I like drama and hopefully I will see some rivalries starting in sc2 . One of my wishes is to see FBH dance and groove and hip thrust to victory after every battle . Come on it's not about the game all the time .
People who are expecting that to happen are expecting a different FBH i'm afraid. FBH has matured a lot during his time in Airforce ACE and i would be pretty surprised if he pulled another one of those ceremonies when he switches over.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
I like drama and hopefully I will see some rivalries starting in sc2 . One of my wishes is to see FBH dance and groove and hip thrust to victory after every battle . Come on it's not about the game all the time .
People who are expecting that to happen are expecting a different FBH i'm afraid. FBH has matured a lot during his time in Airforce ACE and i would be pretty surprised if he pulled another one of those ceremonies when he switches over.
More likely because Airforce Ace has some really strict rules to adhere with take for example after FBH dances over his opponent's dead body in one of the recent proleague matches . He stop appearing for the games even though he was present at the matches . FBH has always been the king of ceremony and if you read Hoejja recent interview he always look up to fbh for ideas of ceremony because professional gamers aren't about playing the games only you have to entertain the fans too .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
I like drama and hopefully I will see some rivalries starting in sc2 . One of my wishes is to see FBH dance and groove and hip thrust to victory after every battle . Come on it's not about the game all the time .
Oh i'l not talking about that kind of drama, I would call what you described entertainement :p
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
I like drama and hopefully I will see some rivalries starting in sc2 . One of my wishes is to see FBH dance and groove and hip thrust to victory after every battle . Come on it's not about the game all the time .
People who are expecting that to happen are expecting a different FBH i'm afraid. FBH has matured a lot during his time in Airforce ACE and i would be pretty surprised if he pulled another one of those ceremonies when he switches over.
He's said in an interview that he wants to do ceremonies, but can't because he's in the airforce.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
There have been a few few exbroodwar players streaming lately and after watching some I really do think this is going to take the game to the next level.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
This deserves a quote.
I remember back when starcraft was released, i was 9 years old and begged my mother almost every day to buy it. Later a friend of mine had connections and copied it. I played that game for nearly 7 years, singleplayer only. LOL Watched Nal_Ra and thought he was best player in the world, never watched after that. Now i almost only play sc2. I like it as well.
More ontopic: i like any flash liking sc2. i'd like anyone adding anything to sc2
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
Sawamura, one-on-one is not a troll. He is making good points and giving his point of view in a positive way. You are free to disagree, and yes you can try and pick apart his points and show where you think differently, but even when you do disagree with a point that he's making, surely you can see what he's trying to say?
Right now you seem almost to be taking each point of his and turning it into much more of an extreme (or combative) statement than what he actually intended. You and he would probably agree on more points than you'd think, is my guess
Look bring me a bw fan and tell them the A.I is stopping them from enjoying game ? True or False ? No I am not trolling .
On May 07 2012 19:11 Jacmert wrote: Sawamura, one-on-one is not a troll. He is making good points and giving his point of view in a positive way. You are free to disagree, and yes you can try and pick apart his points and show where you think differently, but even when you do disagree with a point that he's making, surely you can see what he's trying to say?
Right now you seem almost to be taking each point of his and turning it into much more of an extreme (or combative) statement than what he actually intended. You and he would probably agree on more points than you'd think, is my guess
No he made it seems that Flash is actually focusing on microing the units on the ramp the whole time instead of focusing on macro and unit positioning which is kind of dumb to me .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
Sorry but the only reason BW is harder than SC2 is because of how outdated it is. UI, workers, control groups etc etc. If Blizzard had just made a 3D BW instead of SC2 with all the features that SC2 had then you would probably still complain. You need to accept that Blizzard can't just make a game in 2010+ with shitty graphics/UI just because a minority of people with nostalgia/tunnel-vision want it to be so.
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
Well I see a tremendous irony in BW fans calling SC2 'no skill', and then saying they are going to LoL.
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube
Let's listen to one person's opinion and call it fact, sure. How the fuck can SC2 have no micro? I don't think it's possible for a game like SC2 to have no micro. Marines/blink stalkers/force fields etc. In a few situations due to SC2 being faster paced micro is harder than in BW and require faster reaction times... sorry but that's a fact. If you have watched a single Korean Terran in SC2 then you would realise how wrong you are.
Btw can't wait for BW pros to switch to SC2 gonna be so great!!!!!!!!! Can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
Well, let me tell you my story. I have played BW relatively well for about 6 years (B/B+ on PGTour/ICCup). I loved and love BW. I loved it so much that I have loathed on W3 arguing that it is a game that requires no skill. It took me 5 more years to realize, how wrong I was with W3, how my "BW IS THE BESTEST" attitude clouded my judgement towards W3. Only then I started to appreciate all the neccessary skill required to be pretty good at that game. Yeah, it had some flaws but watching GOMTV back in the day when they casted W3 (with Rotterdam and Tod iirc), it was epic to realize how deep that game is.
I feel like this is the same with SC2. It's new game with new style (as was SC and W3 before), it also has some flaws but I enjoy it so much and eventhough BW was big part of my life, I will continue to look forward to see how SC2 will develop. And I'm so excited to see BW pros transition to SC2. So excited to see what they can bring to the table.
You can hate SC2 as much as you want, but I just want you to know, that there are many BW players, that enjoy SC2.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
Sorry but the only reason BW is harder than SC2 is because of how outdated it is. UI, workers, control groups etc etc. If Blizzard had just made a 3D BW instead of SC2 with all the features that SC2 had then you would probably still complain. You need to accept that Blizzard can't just make a game in 2010+ with shitty graphics/UI just because a minority of people with nostalgia/tunnel-vision want it to be so.
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
Well I see a tremendous irony in BW fans calling SC2 'no skill', and then saying they are going to LoL.
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube
Let's listen to one person's opinion and call it fact, sure. How the fuck can SC2 have no micro? I don't think it's possible for a game like SC2 to have no micro. Marines/blink stalkers/force fields etc. In a few situations due to SC2 being faster paced micro is harder than in BW and require faster reaction times... sorry but that's a fact. If you have watched a single Korean Terran in SC2 then you would realise how wrong you are.
Btw can't wait for BW pros to switch to SC2 gonna be so great!!!!!!!!! Can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
Look I am not going to further derailed this thread but if you want to discuss this further I can take it in pm . Any time okay ?
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
Well, let me tell you my story. I have played BW relatively well for about 6 years (B/B+ on PGTour/ICCup). I loved and love BW. I loved it so much that I have loathed on W3 arguing that it is a game that requires no skill. It took me 5 more years to realize, how wrong I was with W3, how my "BW IS THE BESTEST" attitude clouded my judgement towards W3. Only then I started to appreciate all the neccessary skill required to be pretty good at that game. Yeah, it had some flaws but watching GOMTV back in the day when they casted W3 (with Rotterdam and Tod iirc), it was epic to realize how deep that game is.
I feel like this is the same with SC2. It's new game with new style (as was SC and W3 before), it also has some flaws but I enjoy it so much and eventhough BW was big part of my life, I will continue to look forward to see how SC2 will develop. And I'm so excited to see BW pros transition to SC2. So excited to see what they can bring to the table.
You can hate SC2 as much as you want, but I just want you to know, that there are many BW players, that enjoy SC2.
Bla bla long history and experience makes my point the best argument right ? Every person I meet has open their statement like this " I played bw Long time ago and I was A+ and whatever Olympic rank " and than suddenly I like sc2 because it has much more potential and it's only 2 year old . It has become too stereotypical and kind of a convenient way of saying you share the same experience as bw fans .
I don't hate sc2 without having legitimate reason and I won't state it here because you may not like it .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
I am not a troll <3
And come on please. The UI is quite retarded. It has its charm, but I am pretty sure it takes away a lot of time for the pro players to get atound it.
Ret said that the game had no micro. This was after playing random for a while during the beta 2 years ago. He already then noticed that terran seemed harder to play. Guess what? Terran in Sc2 is only as good as you can micro, so that was probably why he didn't do so well with terran
Here are some links featuring various degrees of insane micro.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
I am not a troll <3
And come on please. The UI is quite retarded. It has its charm, but I am pretty sure it takes away a lot of time for the pro players to get atound it.
Ret said that the game had no micro. This was after playing random for a while during the beta 2 years ago. He already then noticed that terran seemed harder to play. Guess what? Terran in Sc2 is only as good as you can micro, so that was probably why he didn't do so well with terran
Sc2 units don't last as long as broodwar unit and that is a fact . Take for instance muta micro is it existent in sc2 ? No it isn't and if you mean stutter stepping with marines in sc2 is a thing to be amaze at . Wait till you see me storm dodge in broodwar and you won't believe it .
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
I am not a troll <3
And come on please. The UI is quite retarded. It has its charm, but I am pretty sure it takes away a lot of time for the pro players to get atound it.
Ret said that the game had no micro. This was after playing random for a while during the beta 2 years ago. He already then noticed that terran seemed harder to play. Guess what? Terran in Sc2 is only as good as you can micro, so that was probably why he didn't do so well with terran
Sc2 units don't last as long as broodwar unit and that is a fact . Take for instance muta micro is it existent in sc2 ? No it isn't and if you mean stutter stepping with marines in sc2 is a thing to be amaze at . Wait till you see me storm dodge in broodwar and you won't believe it .
"I don't want to further derail this thread" - what happened to that
Ignoring all the examples of difficult micro in SC2 doesn't make your argument a strong one.
By the way I had a good chuckle at how you feel "possessed by Stork"...oh man give me a break.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
I am not a troll <3
And come on please. The UI is quite retarded. It has its charm, but I am pretty sure it takes away a lot of time for the pro players to get atound it.
Ret said that the game had no micro. This was after playing random for a while during the beta 2 years ago. He already then noticed that terran seemed harder to play. Guess what? Terran in Sc2 is only as good as you can micro, so that was probably why he didn't do so well with terran
Sc2 units don't last as long as broodwar unit and that is a fact . Take for instance muta micro is it existent in sc2 ? No it isn't and if you mean stutter stepping with marines in sc2 is a thing to be amaze at . Wait till you see me storm dodge in broodwar and you won't believe it .
"I don't want to further derail this thread" - what happened to that
Ignoring all the examples of difficult micro in SC2 doesn't make your argument a strong one.
By the way I had a good chuckle at how you feel "possessed by Stork"...oh man give me a break.
Sure If I continue talk about broodwar units and arguments that the units are much better than sc2 despite it having retarded A.I . I would no longer be talking about flash practising sc2 instead it will be a freakign sc2 vs bw debate all over again. If you find it funny that's cool because in the end of the day I felt I really was like stork even though I am merely want to be a stork wannabe.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
this man is so full of win
I feel likewise, though he was walking on thin ice with some of his points. I'm in it for the entertainment
It's going to be great year for spectators :D So god finally kicks Apocalypse into overdrive, but where are the 4 Riders that should assist these events?
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
I am not a troll <3
And come on please. The UI is quite retarded. It has its charm, but I am pretty sure it takes away a lot of time for the pro players to get atound it.
You are "pretty sure"? You mean you've never taken the time to carefully watch a professional BW game to see that progamers are able to, in your own words "fight the retarded UI" and also have plenty of time to multitask and micro? Nope, didn't think so.
On May 07 2012 16:31 raga4ka wrote: I personally am more interested in Zero and SoulKey , because Jaedong seems slumping beyond repair since 2010 (He was the undisputed best player from 2006-2009 period with Flash being second to him . He was still good in 2010 , but Flash became god in that year and Jaedong has never been the same in 2011 and 2012 ).
Flash will dominate for sure , but it would be nice to see who will be his zerg competition . In BW there was no talent better then Zero at macroing large armies and microing them to perfection . SoulKey probably is better right now then zero .
SC2 Fanboys: "Soulkey is proof the elephant doesn't exist, because he is better than Jaedong and wasn't good at BW"
BW elitists: *facepalm
People that don't care about drama : "More great games!"
It is not about the drama.
What separates people is the ability (willingness?) to accept the notion that BW is a great game while SC2 has the potential to be, and is becoming a great game. You can like both games...
I know that SC2 has huge problems, but it is not like SC1 didn't have any problems before Brood War. Psi storm anyone ? WC3 Reign of Chaos was also a bit flawed. What you have now is a situation where a lot of really solid RTS players are starting to play a new game. I think it will be interesting even for all BW zealots to study how the game play in SC2 will evolve with all these great players are switching over.
I was 14 years when Starcraft 1 was released in 1998. Before that I had played a lot of Warcraft 2. I used to carry my computer over to my friends place so we could connect them with serial cables to play WC2 vs each other , lol
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ? For me it was such a huge thing. The game really blew my mind to the point where I thought that it would be impossible to ever make a better game. And I maintain that this is the most bad ass intro to a video game ever.
Now I have to face all these rude people who seem to look down on me for playing Starcraft 2.
They wonder how I can bring myself to divert any time at all to "that unspeakable game that we don't mention". It is like I have to apologize. And the undertone is that I don't understand anything about SC:BW so that they can dismiss anything I say as ignorant.
But a lot of your favourite players and casters have already switched over to Sc2 , and a lot more will follow soon.
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion.
This doesn't mean that you can't allow yourself to be nostalgic. All the good stuff from BW will still be available as vods. And if there is interest by progamers, maybe some will stay and continue to provide good games for you.
Again with the nostalgia argument I don't know if you are trolling or not but you can't say it's nostalgia when the game is quite relevant as it is today in terms of high competition and skill level . If you think it's just the past than be my guess and register yourself at courage tournament and beat all this guys who have been playing this games for years and still some of them could not qualify to be best in proleague .
Do I need to carry my pc to my friends house to play lan ? What the hell ? All I needed to do was just go to my local pc bang and play broodwar with my friends and after that go for a drink . Seriously back than computers are quite bulky I am amazed that you as a 14 year old kid can carry it over you must be pretty strong !.
How many of you BW hipster boys actually did that? How many of you remember the release of SC1 ?
So if you don't recall when it is release you are not a bw fan ? I think it's quite pathetic to label people as a hipster just because fans like the old game maybe you should call cs source fans and 1.6 fans hipsters too because they just love the game and not joining in the Halo and CoD crowd after all not following new trends make you a hipster right ?
LoL at the bashing of the retarded UI let me point you to a article where ret was talking about sc2 having no micro http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/11475-ret-micro-almost-non-existent-in-starcraft-2/0 At least broodwar had units which is microable and if you are able to micro them carefully they will last as long as you can micro them . Case in point Boxer v Yellow if you recall that game where it was even made in to a highlight video on youtube . No I am not interested in seeing Flash being a beast in sc2 what I am interested is seeing broodwar and as a kt fan maybe I will drop by tl.net a few days just to see how my team is doing in the sc2 scene .
Wouldn't it be interesting to follow SC2 to see what a beast like Flash can do with a game with a lot less retarded UI ? He can devote more of his apm to more important stuff than trying to get his units to walk down a ramp in an orderly fashion
This statement confirms that you don't know a thing about broodwar if you think broodwar is all about fighting the AI . Seriously I can't believe it after 14 years of broodwar and you are complaining about the game AI still ? I have gotten over the minor technicalities of the game and the A.I always serve me well because I play terran and even though If I off race as protoss I feel like stork possessed me and I was able to use dragoons and massacre siege tanks after siege tank . No experience broodwar player would have bashed the game just because of few minor difficulties which could have over come by having a little patience . Sorry but I think you are a troll.
Sorry but the only reason BW is harder than SC2 is because of how outdated it is. UI, workers, control groups etc etc. If Blizzard had just made a 3D BW instead of SC2 with all the features that SC2 had then you would probably still complain. You need to accept that Blizzard can't just make a game in 2010+ with shitty graphics/UI just because a minority of people with nostalgia/tunnel-vision want it to be so.
Oh god here comes the retarded nostalgia arguments again.
On May 07 2012 19:24 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Well I see a tremendous irony in BW fans calling SC2 'no skill', and then saying they are going to LoL.
Want to know what's really ironic? SC2 fans hating on LoL for having "no skill", and then turning around and bashing BW for being a "mindless button-mashing game".
On May 07 2012 19:24 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Let's listen to one person's opinion and call it fact, sure. How the fuck can SC2 have no micro? I don't think it's possible for a game like SC2 to have no micro. Marines/blink stalkers/force fields etc. In a few situations due to SC2 being faster paced micro is harder than in BW and require faster reaction times... sorry but that's a fact. If you have watched a single Korean Terran in SC2 then you would realise how wrong you are.
And if you had watched 1 BW game then you would realize that the micro in the two games are on different orders of magnitude.
On May 07 2012 19:24 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Btw can't wait for BW pros to switch to SC2 gonna be so great!!!!!!!!! Can't wait to see Bisu micro a collossus
The day is finally arriving. All my Brood War hero's switching over and i get to watch them rise in a new game. These are the things i love about esports, esp BW and SC2, the stories. There's bound to be massive rivalry's between BW players in the switch and current SC2 pros. So much content its mind blowing to think about !!! Just think about the sc1 teams aswell clashing with sc2 teams. Life is is great guys, Starcraft forever <3
Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
Isn't Flash some kind of RTS prodigy? If he can play the game consistently as good as MVP (before his wrists exploded) or better, then he can maintain a 70%+ win rate.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
Isn't Flash some kind of RTS prodigy? If he can play the game consistently as good as MVP (before his wrists exploded) or better, then he can maintain a 70%+ win rate.
That image in my head of MVP's wrist just blowing up while playing sc2 had me laughing a bit.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
Isn't Flash some kind of RTS prodigy? If he can play the game consistently as good as MVP (before his wrists exploded) or better, then he can maintain a 70%+ win rate.
Ironically Flash maintained a 75% win rate when his own wrist exploded.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
Isn't Flash some kind of RTS prodigy? If he can play the game consistently as good as MVP (before his wrists exploded) or better, then he can maintain a 70%+ win rate.
Ironically Flash maintained a 75% win rate when his own wrist exploded.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
Isn't Flash some kind of RTS prodigy? If he can play the game consistently as good as MVP (before his wrists exploded) or better, then he can maintain a 70%+ win rate.
Ironically Flash maintained a 75% win rate when his own wrist exploded.
On May 07 2012 21:22 NotSorry wrote: Trying not to let my hopes up, sc2 really doesn't allow for players of this level to show what really differentiates them from your average top Korean but at least we should see a lot less mistakes than we currently do.
Time will tell.
Time has spoken. As QXC stated about the skill celing in SC2 vs BW: "How can you even say something like that? The skill ceiling in both games is infinitely high for a human player"
I'm a huge Flash fan, but I'm a bit worried... Actually in the next season, players should play both BW and SC2, so it's hard for them to focus on practicing SC2 only. Also, ace players of each team scarcely played SC2 before than others, so it would be hard for them to catch up the gap.
MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
They win everything!
But yea to address your question, they have great mechanics but that necessarily isn't the sole reason for their dominance because every SC1 pro nowadays have jaw-dropping mechanics. As always, decision making is what separate the men from the boys..
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because BW is not SC2
Also coaches said that those who were bad at bw are now good at sc2
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
Watch some of their games , bisu vs flash vs jaedong and u will start to notice. Still what made them so brilliant and brings so hype is the fact that they have been playing for years , they brain developed for rts, and with a really hardchore and hard one which happens to be SCII predecesor.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Being a top 3 zerg (next to JD and Soulkey) and the last MSL finalist is far from mediocre. He's definitely one of the most creative and innovative zergs with hive play ZvZ and effecitvely utilizing mass queens in every matchup. MVP also hyped up Zero before so I'm excited.
Don't know why people still know Flash as the turtle terran when he is easily one of the most aggressive terrans ever. The reason he is called god is because he can do whatever he wants, whether turtling or hitting a crazy early timing push, and still win.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
he said that he saw ZerO play and that he was very good.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
When Flash entered the scene he was notorious for cheesing and doing hardcore turtling TvP builds. But he stopped doing that and started to become godly in 2010
Flash is best known for his game sense and decision making. Definitions of "good mechanics" is subjective, some might say having faster handspeed is "good mechanics" whilst some say that having effective APM is "good mechanics" as well. As for handspeed, Flash is not the fastest, but FAST ENOUGH to macro efficiently. Flash is the greatest macro player in the world not because he spams unit production the fastest, but his understanding of the economy/resource distribution is second to none.
I strongly recommend you to watch Flash vs MVP series in Hana Daetoo MSL ro8, to fully understand Flash's difference from the best SC2 Terran. MVP's mechanics were up to par if not faster than Flash's, but Flash's decision making was way superior than those of MVP's. People always stereotype BW pros of being better because "they are faster". Everyone have good mechanics in BW, what makes Flash / Jaedong / Bisu / Stork the best is their unparalleled strategic / tactical/ decision making and understanding.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Are you referring to a different Zero than the rest of the world?
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Being a top 3 zerg (next to JD and Soulkey) and the last MSL finalist is far from mediocre. He's definitely one of the most creative and innovative zergs with hive play ZvZ and effecitvely utilizing mass queens in every matchup. MVP also hyped up Zero before so I'm excited.
Don't know why people still know Flash as the turtle terran when he is easily one of the most aggressive terrans ever. The reason he is called god is because he can do whatever he wants, whether turtling or hitting a crazy early timing push, and still win.
Well he was a turtle terrian when sc2 came out. Alot of ppl stooped following BW after that.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
this is an insane game bisu vs jaedong showing a first person view of bisu playing.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Being a top 3 zerg (next to JD and Soulkey) and the last MSL finalist is far from mediocre. He's definitely one of the most creative and innovative zergs with hive play ZvZ and effecitvely utilizing mass queens in every matchup. MVP also hyped up Zero before so I'm excited.
Don't know why people still know Flash as the turtle terran when he is easily one of the most aggressive terrans ever. The reason he is called god is because he can do whatever he wants, whether turtling or hitting a crazy early timing push, and still win.
Well he was a turtle terrian when sc2 came out. Alot of ppl stooped following BW after that.
Make that a year before SC2 came out (in 2010) and you would've been right. Late 2009, he changed his style a lot and its funny how people comment on styles when they probably haven't seen more than 10 BW progames in their life.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Since when was Zero mediocre at BW? He's an S class player and can beat anyone in the world and has. I don't call that mediocre
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Zero mediocre?.......
Flash playing SC2 is awesome and all, but I'm very excited to see how the other A-Teamers do as well.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Turtly?
Standard response to 2 hatch lurker: OH SHI-, 2 bunkers, ebay, turrets, save scans and range upgrade or siege mode.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Since when was Zero mediocre at BW? He's an S class player and can beat anyone in the world and has. I don't call that mediocre
Zero only really has close to S-class TvZ, and he was completely outclassed by Flash who was on painkillers at the time and didn't even bother to use vessels.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
It's worth noting that Stork was still fucking amazing at BW.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
It's worth noting that Stork was still fucking amazing at BW.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
Just search for Jaedong fpvod on Youtube and you'll get a bunch. Also search for bnet attack here on TL and you have a whole thread with fpvods from progamers playing games vs randoms on the TV show bnet attack.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
(1) Disregarding 100s of pro player's skills, judging on 1 map: check (2) Questioning the skill ceiling of a rapidly developing 2-year old game which has not been reached yet: check (3) Calling SC2 noobish/a-movy/easy (choose other random discrimation) not checked
Congratulations, you are almost there. Continue on your path, and you, dear sir, pass the test and deserve to call yourself a true BW elitist!
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
"Talented". They have played a stable game much longer. Their ability to micro so much, so well has been also aided by BW being slower than SC2. Aside from these details, yes, they truly are amazing and their consistency across the years is evidence that they have the skill to sit at the top of SC2 if they try hard enough.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
I think he's trolling, and I think he's the reason sc2 fans think BW fans are bashing sc2 (because sc2 fans are trolling each other) *sigh*
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Yep both Stork and Savior were incapable of being good at Starcraft because they only had 200apm.
Oh wait weren't they the fucking most consistent and dominating players of all time?
Also the irony is that much of Savior's success was due to abusing the highly mechanical aspects of the game, even though he had one of the lowest APMs in the league.
As it appears at first glance, this situation is one of the most inexplicable mysteries of any finals. How could Nada let three lurkers devastate his only army and not react for 9 seconds!? Lack of scan energy is also not valid explanation as Nada would have stimmed and organized his units first. Pressure is not valid as Nada is the definition of clutch. No, Nada had not reacted at all. Why?
The cause.
The important point to notice is the exact timing of Savior's actions. He moves the 3 lurkers in attack range half a second before his muta/ling backstab comes into vision at Nada's natural.
The only plausible interpretation of the above sequence is that Nada was so surprised at Savior's backstab that it did not even come to mind that his army could be attacked during this time. Nada clearly reacted immediately to the backstab, pulling SCVs to surround the bunker. Yet normally Nada could have defended and macroed and we would never have noticed he wasn't moving his main army. Nada must have been so distracted that he did not even move his army forward to siege Savior's natural, much less do anything else. It wasn't that Nada was overrun by necessary tasks for 9 seconds; he had completely forgotten about his main army in the face of immediate and unexpected danger. Nada quit multitasking and focused all of his efforts on defending his base for those key seconds. A horrific mistake to be sure, but then again, no opponent ever played Savior and did not make glaring forced errors.
Why else would Savior potentially suicide 3 crucial lurkers at that exact timing if not in anticipation of the events that followed?
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
Just search for Jaedong fpvod on Youtube and you'll get a bunch. Also search for bnet attack here on TL and you have a whole thread with fpvods from progamers playing games vs randoms on the TV show bnet attack.
BNet attack isn't really a good example because its progamers smurfing, ShowMeTheMSL is a lot better because they are fpvods of proleague games.
[QUOTE]On May 08 2012 01:38 YoiChiBow wrote: [QUOTE]On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.[/QUOTE]
I think this question has been asked before in one of the bw forum... i can't find it. i remember one guy answering rather cleverly that if s/he was playing jaedong s/he would be scared to move out because s/he would know that jaedong would be able to attack him anywhere... as for playing bisu s/he would be annoyed because bisu is known for harass and he would sometime micro 4-5 place all around the map at the same time... flash is just flash and he'd win inevitably...
however, to answer your question more directly.... i've always seen flash as having a very deep understanding of trends... he's great at mind games and trying new things.... i honestly believe that when he was known as the "cheddar terran" that was just him asking "why CAN'T you win like this?" he challenges conventions which is why everyone has been following him ever since he started dominating.... his apm is nothing special but he is so precise and can pull of any build with unmatched efficiency....
i think that given time, he will be able to do very well in SC2.... that said, i think there is a big difference between SC2 and the current pro bw scene in korea... i don't know much about the SC2 scene but from what i've seen, i've seen so many pros open about their strategies and many of them stream.... i don't know how many current bw pros feel about this.....
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Turtly?
Standard response to 2 hatch lurker: OH SHI-, 2 bunkers, ebay, turrets, save scans and range upgrade or siege mode.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Since when was Zero mediocre at BW? He's an S class player and can beat anyone in the world and has. I don't call that mediocre
Zero only really has close to S-class TvZ, and he was completely outclassed by Flash who was on painkillers at the time and didn't even bother to use vessels.
Maybe you've missed Zero shiting countless time on protoss players such as Bisu and Stork to claim that only his ZvT is close to S - class . Zero only real weakness has been nerves . Thats why he has done poorly mainly in ZvZ when you need to have the nerves of steel . At his best his game is close to what Jaedong's was in his prime . Not to mention that he rarely ever uses cheese strategy to try and snap out an easier win . Flash beat Zero , because he is Flash and the no vessel use was actually what won him the series . He would have had harder time if he played more standart .
People shouldn't expect too much until Oct. when Proleague is going full SC2. Double for the people still currently in the OSL who have to practice for that, Proleague maps and SC2.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
Lol... i used to think stephano had pretty fast movements, then i saw that video :D Poor steph.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
(1) Disregarding 100s of pro player's skills, judging on 1 map: check (2) Questioning the skill ceiling of a rapidly developing 2-year old game which has not been reached yet: check (3) Calling SC2 noobish/a-movy/easy (choose other random discrimation) not checked
Congratulations, you are almost there. Continue on your path, and you, dear sir, pass the test and deserve to call yourself a true BW elitist!
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Flash doesn't have notably high APM, and he's the greatest player of all time. Stork is considered very slow, and is one of the best protoss players ever. Yeah, you sure can't do well in Brood War unless you're the fastest player out there.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Flash doesn't have notably high APM, and he's the greatest player of all time. Stork is considered very slow, and is one of the best protoss players ever. Yeah, you sure can't do well in Brood War unless you're the fastest player out there.
Haha I still remember that WCG game where Stork's ~90 APM beat Idra's ~290 APM.
skill ceiling in sc2 is much much lower because whereas in bw micro could make a unit 10x better, in sc2, it only makes it 1.2x better. there are too many hard counters, aoe, and ball vs ball fights, so mechanics dont make nearly as much difference.
this is why nobody has dominated at all in sc2, its completely volatile with champions falling into code A all the time. they're all at about the same skill level and on one can really gain a leg up on the other.
On May 08 2012 07:31 fishjie wrote: skill ceiling in sc2 is much much lower because whereas in bw micro could make a unit 10x better, in sc2, it only makes it 1.2x better. there are too many hard counters, aoe, and ball vs ball fights, so mechanics dont make nearly as much difference.
this is why nobody has dominated at all in sc2, its completely volatile with champions falling into code A all the time. they're all at about the same skill level and on one can really gain a leg up on the other.
/imo
I pretty much agree with this and think it will turn out to be the case unless drastic changes show up in HOTS which I have my doubts on. Lets not forget force fields or fungal growth those are pretty exciting to watch when one guys ball of marines all just die because the other player managed to click on them. Abilities like this look cool at first but then later on you realize maybe it was not such a good idea.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Flash doesn't have notably high APM, and he's the greatest player of all time. Stork is considered very slow, and is one of the best protoss players ever. Yeah, you sure can't do well in Brood War unless you're the fastest player out there.
Haha I still remember that WCG game where Stork's ~90 APM beat Idra's ~290 APM.
Did he just play chilled cause it was against a foreigner? You can't tell me he plays with that speed regularly.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
personally, i enjoy watching bw as much as sc2. (though i never played bw before) but this.
On May 08 2012 07:31 fishjie wrote: skill ceiling in sc2 is much much lower because whereas in bw micro could make a unit 10x better, in sc2, it only makes it 1.2x better. there are too many hard counters, aoe, and ball vs ball fights, so mechanics dont make nearly as much difference.
this is why nobody has dominated at all in sc2, its completely volatile with champions falling into code A all the time. they're all at about the same skill level and on one can really gain a leg up on the other.
/imo
MVP dominated for quite some time and repeatedly proved he was the best player in the world pre injury
MVP was dominating for a while before his hand let him down other champions falling because skill gap between all top pros is not really big atm
ye u know sc2 is a different game Skill ceiling in mechanics is lower in sc2, yes. But it's not worse, it's the main point. You can (and should) be more focused on your decision making, mind games and many other more interesting things. Wanna more mechanics than in bw? Well make the game where you not only have to clicking all your buildings, units etc basically manually, but also you have to give a name to every unit and every structure! or even more - you have to code every unit movements, in ASM! that's gonna be a better game than just scbw apparently!
On May 08 2012 07:59 HQuality wrote: MVP was dominating for a while before his hand let him down other champions falling because skill gap between all top pros is not really big atm
ye u know sc2 is a different game Skill ceiling in mechanics is lower in sc2, yes. But it's not worse, it's the main point. You can (and should) be more focused on your decision making, mind games and many other more interesting things. Wanna more mechanics than in bw? Well make the game where you not only have to clicking all your buildings, units etc basically manually, but also you have to give a name to every unit and every structure! or even more - you have to code every unit movements, in ASM! that's gonna be a better game than just scbw apparently!
MVP never really stopped dominating. Of course, he can't win every tournament he's been in ever, but he's been very consistent in GSL and got pretty high up in a few tournaments recently.
Nestea has also done really well lately, placing high in foreigner tournaments.
On May 08 2012 07:31 fishjie wrote: skill ceiling in sc2 is much much lower because whereas in bw micro could make a unit 10x better, in sc2, it only makes it 1.2x better. there are too many hard counters, aoe, and ball vs ball fights, so mechanics dont make nearly as much difference.
this is why nobody has dominated at all in sc2, its completely volatile with champions falling into code A all the time. they're all at about the same skill level and on one can really gain a leg up on the other.
/imo
hmm (partly influenced because im currently watching a bw tvt with flash haha) would you also think its because the strategies are much more volatile in sc2? (of course no knowledge on bw lol so i guess everyone can shoot me down) its just that whenever i watch a tvt its always mech vs mech (occasionally i see a late late late game with air transitions) and a standard match up like that makes it so that both players start at an equal footing (mech) and hence the mechanics and micro show through (and so the better player wins)? Cause that's a bit like sc2 mech vs mech, but not so in mech vs bio?
whilst i would also like to say, whilst yeah there are hard counters and stuff... micro does make a diff though no? yes a colossus would almost always kill bio balls but haven't we seen many times when mkp's micro prevails or something like that? would you say that that as an evidence shows that the skill ceiling of sc2 is not necessarily stagnant but just growing?
i dont really know whether im putting my point through clear enough though lol.
On May 08 2012 07:59 HQuality wrote: MVP was dominating for a while before his hand let him down other champions falling because skill gap between all top pros is not really big atm
ye u know sc2 is a different game Skill ceiling in mechanics is lower in sc2, yes. But it's not worse, it's the main point. You can (and should) be more focused on your decision making, mind games and many other more interesting things. Wanna more mechanics than in bw? Well make the game where you not only have to clicking all your buildings, units etc basically manually, but also you have to give a name to every unit and every structure! or even more - you have to code every unit movements, in ASM! that's gonna be a better game than just scbw apparently!
So go or chess would then be the best games. No mechanics required, just extremely deep strategy. I mean what's the point of playing starcraft, you could just make the players carve their pieces during the game or something.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
personally, i enjoy watching bw as much as sc2. (though i never played bw before) but this.
this is incredible. absolutely... madness
yeah, JD is pretty fast, freaking hell.. i would go blind trying to do all that.
On May 08 2012 07:31 fishjie wrote: skill ceiling in sc2 is much much lower because whereas in bw micro could make a unit 10x better, in sc2, it only makes it 1.2x better. there are too many hard counters, aoe, and ball vs ball fights, so mechanics dont make nearly as much difference.
this is why nobody has dominated at all in sc2, its completely volatile with champions falling into code A all the time. they're all at about the same skill level and on one can really gain a leg up on the other.
On May 08 2012 01:30 FeelTHeBluEZ wrote: Really excited, that Flash will play SC2 (no pun against BW, it is a really great game), but what exactly made / makes him the best in BW? I don't really follow the BW scene, but would be really interested what made / makes all the A-Pros the best of the best. So what made / makes Flash, Bisu, Jaedong and whoever is one of the best in BW the best? Brutal mechanics? Sharp decision-making? And how will it be transferable to SC2? Honest question here.
their ability to micro 2-3 different areas while macroing flawlessly.
This video is all the evidence I need to claim that BW pros are more talented than SC2 pros; unfortunately, the skill ceiling in sc2 might be a problem.
Lol... i used to think stephano had pretty fast movements, then i saw that video :D Poor steph.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
I know this is offtopic, but it's just amazing to me how good Tasteless used to be. There's not a single stupid joke in that entire ten minute video, he keeps doing excellent play by play commentary while throwing in strategic advice (e.g. Jaedong going lurker rather than spine, Protoss needing the gas expansions, etc.), and he just does an all-round excellent job of making the game exciting.
Also, Jaedong's FPV is unbelievable, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be just as unbelievable in SC2.
^ Lots of sc2 people hate on tasteless and don't realize he was a much more celebrated commentator than artosis was back in sc1. It's a shame he hasn't kept the same passion in sc2 because he really is one of the most talented rts casters ever.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
I know this is offtopic, but it's just amazing to me how good Tasteless used to be. There's not a single stupid joke in that entire ten minute video, he keeps doing excellent play by play commentary while throwing in strategic advice (e.g. Jaedong going lurker rather than spine, Protoss needing the gas expansions, etc.), and he just does an all-round excellent job of making the game exciting.
Also, Jaedong's FPV is unbelievable, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be just as unbelievable in SC2.
The crazy thing about progamer FPVODs is look at the amount of effective actions they are doing... there's no spamming at all.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
I know this is offtopic, but it's just amazing to me how good Tasteless used to be. There's not a single stupid joke in that entire ten minute video, he keeps doing excellent play by play commentary while throwing in strategic advice (e.g. Jaedong going lurker rather than spine, Protoss needing the gas expansions, etc.), and he just does an all-round excellent job of making the game exciting.
Also, Jaedong's FPV is unbelievable, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be just as unbelievable in SC2.
On May 08 2012 08:58 rysecake wrote: ^ Lots of sc2 people hate on tasteless and don't realize he was a much more celebrated commentator than artosis was back in sc1. It's a shame he hasn't kept the same passion in sc2 because he really is one of the most talented rts casters ever.
probably because sc1 was his childhood, its what brought him to the present, he didnt get here playing sc2. sc1 probably means a lot more to him.
On May 08 2012 08:58 rysecake wrote: ^ Lots of sc2 people hate on tasteless and don't realize he was a much more celebrated commentator than artosis was back in sc1. It's a shame he hasn't kept the same passion in sc2 because he really is one of the most talented rts casters ever.
I completely agree with this. Back in BW, Tasteless was the only caster for WCG and it was really entertaining and refreshing from the Korean commentating.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
I know this is offtopic, but it's just amazing to me how good Tasteless used to be. There's not a single stupid joke in that entire ten minute video, he keeps doing excellent play by play commentary while throwing in strategic advice (e.g. Jaedong going lurker rather than spine, Protoss needing the gas expansions, etc.), and he just does an all-round excellent job of making the game exciting.
Also, Jaedong's FPV is unbelievable, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be just as unbelievable in SC2.
Thats so true, he did a fantastic job. I want exactly this Tasteless casting the GSL. But I guess his heart is with BW so he can't really do SC2 the exact same way (plus he lacks knowledge, whereas in BW he -at least for me seemed to- know everything). Pretty sad. I find it funny how few Drones there are in this game.
Agreed. Sometimes when I watch Tasteless casting these days I wonder what people see in him, but if you go back and check out his old-school BW stuff you can tell that he used to be really fucking good. I mean, he cracked some jokes back in those days too (I remember spraying whatever it was I was drinking over my keyboard when he quipped ''Scantid - the defilers gay cousin''), but first and foremost it was all about providing high-level commentary of the game, whereas nowadays... yeh, lack of passion for the game seems the right way to put it.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Flash doesn't have notably high APM, and he's the greatest player of all time. Stork is considered very slow, and is one of the best protoss players ever. Yeah, you sure can't do well in Brood War unless you're the fastest player out there.
What are you talking about?
FlaSh had an average of 320-350 apm at all stages in the game in his 2010 WCG replays.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Mediocre?? Zero has been one of the top zergs for ages. Until Soulkey/Hydra came along he was indisputably one of the top 3 zergs with JD and Effort, and even now he's a top A teamer, just one tier below the S class. After JD, Flash and Bisu, he's the one person I most look forward to seeing play SC2.
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Flash doesn't have notably high APM, and he's the greatest player of all time. Stork is considered very slow, and is one of the best protoss players ever. Yeah, you sure can't do well in Brood War unless you're the fastest player out there.
What are you talking about?
FlaSh had an average of 320-350 apm at all stages in the game in his 2010 WCG replays.
He means compared to say.. BaBy who gets measured at around 400 yet doesn't have nearly the same amount of success.
On May 08 2012 08:58 rysecake wrote: ^ Lots of sc2 people hate on tasteless and don't realize he was a much more celebrated commentator than artosis was back in sc1. It's a shame he hasn't kept the same passion in sc2 because he really is one of the most talented rts casters ever.
Say what ? First thing. a) tasteless is commentator , NOT analysis LIKE Artosis , thats why commentators cast in duets. TB +Appolo , Day 9 + DJ etc. b) tasteless say himself he has mega hyped love and passion for Sc2 , dont try to think for him.
Other thing.. Maby he just get older ? ,you lose some of "gaming power and enthusiasm" with years passes by..
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
Flash doesn't have notably high APM, and he's the greatest player of all time. Stork is considered very slow, and is one of the best protoss players ever. Yeah, you sure can't do well in Brood War unless you're the fastest player out there.
What are you talking about?
FlaSh had an average of 320-350 apm at all stages in the game in his 2010 WCG replays.
Yeah that's average, but also most of his apm is involved in mindless mechanical stuff like mining up and building turrets.
Nearly every game where he had to divert his attention to 2 places or more, he just fell apart. Its more his multitasking which isn't very good, that's why he's so timing attack oriented.
On May 08 2012 11:33 JayDee_ wrote: You guys can thank Blizzard for not allowing LAN. Organizations (kespa, gom, etc) play nice when all somebody has to do is pull the plug.
agreed. if sc2 had lan, i doubt we would even see the switch from bw to sc2
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
It's not just the action, is the whole supply thing too. Look at how much action there is and they are only around 70-130 supply and it allows comebacks when you pull out godly play like Jaedong that game. In Sc2 that supply is nothing and you run around with 200/200 rouch army in sc2 at the same ingame time like in that BW game. >(
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
It's not just the action, is the whole supply thing too. Look at how much action there is and they are only around 70-130 supply and it allows comebacks when you pull out godly play like Jaedong that game. In Sc2 that supply is nothing and you run around with 200/200 rouch army in sc2 at the same ingame time like in that BW game. >(
Alot easier to stage comebacks in SC1 I do agree xD.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
It's not just the action, is the whole supply thing too. Look at how much action there is and they are only around 70-130 supply and it allows comebacks when you pull out godly play like Jaedong that game. In Sc2 that supply is nothing and you run around with 200/200 rouch army in sc2 at the same ingame time like in that BW game. >(
Sigh, looks so much more fun to play/watch at times, hopefully Blizz can get SC2 to that level by the time Legacy of the Void is dropped on us
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
It's not just the action, is the whole supply thing too. Look at how much action there is and they are only around 70-130 supply and it allows comebacks when you pull out godly play like Jaedong that game. In Sc2 that supply is nothing and you run around with 200/200 rouch army in sc2 at the same ingame time like in that BW game. >(
Alot easier to stage comebacks in SC1 I do agree xD.
You can be sure that what jaedong did was not easy lol.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
Problem is the way SC2 is designed doesn't really cater to action all over the map style. In BW, you can have small engagements all over the place. This is because defenders advantage is much greater and a smaller amount of units can hold off/trade efficiently vs a significantly larger force. So you end up with players having about 50% of their army defending their bases and the rest all over the map.
In SC2, the bigger army (even 20% more support) has a huge advantage. Unless the unit comps are hard hard counters, the bigger army will win and more efficiently. So most SC2 engagements are ball vs ball. You do get multi prong attacks sometimes but most are just base harass and lasts a short time. You rarely see multi fights in different location. Because it is just better to your entire army all together.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
It's not just the action, is the whole supply thing too. Look at how much action there is and they are only around 70-130 supply and it allows comebacks when you pull out godly play like Jaedong that game. In Sc2 that supply is nothing and you run around with 200/200 rouch army in sc2 at the same ingame time like in that BW game. >(
This is What I was trying to told in TL but keep getting warned or ban from them. Roaches, Marauder and Colossus is making SC2 look dumb. Dumb these unit plz
On May 08 2012 08:58 rysecake wrote: ^ Lots of sc2 people hate on tasteless and don't realize he was a much more celebrated commentator than artosis was back in sc1. It's a shame he hasn't kept the same passion in sc2 because he really is one of the most talented rts casters ever.
Say what ? First thing. a) tasteless is commentator , NOT analysis LIKE Artosis , thats why commentators cast in duets. TB +Appolo , Day 9 + DJ etc. b) tasteless say himself he has mega hyped love and passion for Sc2 , dont try to think for him.
Other thing.. Maby he just get older ? ,you lose some of "gaming power and enthusiasm" with years passes by..
Actually tasteless used to do both. He would do color commentary as well as analysis in a game by himself. He was a very very talented caster. I can't speak for tasteless of course but you can easily tell his passion for sc2 is not like it was for sc1. Believe what you want to believe but don't think he has "mega hyped love and passion" for sc2 just because he says it.
On May 08 2012 08:58 rysecake wrote: ^ Lots of sc2 people hate on tasteless and don't realize he was a much more celebrated commentator than artosis was back in sc1. It's a shame he hasn't kept the same passion in sc2 because he really is one of the most talented rts casters ever.
Say what ? First thing. a) tasteless is commentator , NOT analysis LIKE Artosis , thats why commentators cast in duets. TB +Appolo , Day 9 + DJ etc. b) tasteless say himself he has mega hyped love and passion for Sc2 , dont try to think for him.
Other thing.. Maby he just get older ? ,you lose some of "gaming power and enthusiasm" with years passes by..
Actually tasteless used to do both. He would do color commentary as well as analysis in a game by himself. He was a very very talented caster. I can't speak for tasteless of course but you can easily tell his passion for sc2 is not like it was for sc1. Believe what you want to believe but don't think he has "mega hyped love and passion" for sc2 just because he says it.
last thing. you come off very rude.
I cant "easily" tell anything about someones passion. I choose to take the man at his word until science gives us awesome mind reading devices that mean we dont have to.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
Problem is the way SC2 is designed doesn't really cater to action all over the map style. In BW, you can have small engagements all over the place. This is because defenders advantage is much greater and a smaller amount of units can hold off/trade efficiently vs a significantly larger force. So you end up with players having about 50% of their army defending their bases and the rest all over the map.
In SC2, the bigger army (even 20% more support) has a huge advantage. Unless the unit comps are hard hard counters, the bigger army will win and more efficiently. So most SC2 engagements are ball vs ball. You do get multi prong attacks sometimes but most are just base harass and lasts a short time. You rarely see multi fights in different location. Because it is just better to your entire army all together.
This is probably more true for protoss, they like their balls clump and tight,
zerg and terran, not so much. It really boils down to the map types, and we ought to get rid of all these choke point/few entrances maps
He will be top teir and possibly win more than anyone else but he can't dominate sc2 like he did in BW. The games are far to different and once you get to the highest tier of skill it's much easier to loss to someone lesser skilled than you in SC2. SC2 has much more rigidity with its builds and counter units, in BW flash could rely on pure mechanics and skill to overcome various obstacles mortals couldn't. This just isn't possible in SC2.
I'm not saying its bad and BW > SC 2 or anything, but you have to understand the core differences between the games.
On May 08 2012 11:33 JayDee_ wrote: You guys can thank Blizzard for not allowing LAN. Organizations (kespa, gom, etc) play nice when all somebody has to do is pull the plug.
Lol are you suggesting MKP etc pulled the plug to his computer ie when he was losing to ST_Parting? Can we keep our wild accusations to ourselfs please?
On May 08 2012 13:05 crms wrote: He will be top teir and possibly win more than anyone else but he can't dominate sc2 like he did in BW. The games are far to different and once you get to the highest tier of skill it's much easier to loss to someone lesser skilled than you in SC2. SC2 has much more rigidity with its builds and counter units, in BW flash could rely on pure mechanics and skill to overcome various obstacles mortals couldn't. This just isn't possible in SC2.
I'm not saying its bad and BW > SC 2 or anything, but you have to understand the core differences between the games.
this pretty much sums up how I feel. It is partially why I feel the BW scene is more exciting. Not even saying BW is better (even though I think is is ), just that the scene is more addictive and entertaining due to the gauntlet the players must go through to reach the top, and stay there. Fuckin Flash has been ranked #1 for 30 months total on Kespa's ranking system now. I don't think we'll ever see dominating eras like this in sc2. For example: I started following BW during the reign of Bisu, who had just recently de-throned Savior. Then there was the rise of Jaedong, who is my favorite player (so sad he's doing poorly ), and now we have Flash. It has been truly awe inspiring to see someone at that level of skills where nobody even calls him bonjwa, they call him God. Sure he loses games here and there, but a boX is something I always expect him to win.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
wow. I gained like 20 apm just from watching that VOD.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
Problem is the way SC2 is designed doesn't really cater to action all over the map style. In BW, you can have small engagements all over the place. This is because defenders advantage is much greater and a smaller amount of units can hold off/trade efficiently vs a significantly larger force. So you end up with players having about 50% of their army defending their bases and the rest all over the map.
In SC2, the bigger army (even 20% more support) has a huge advantage. Unless the unit comps are hard hard counters, the bigger army will win and more efficiently. So most SC2 engagements are ball vs ball. You do get multi prong attacks sometimes but most are just base harass and lasts a short time. You rarely see multi fights in different location. Because it is just better to your entire army all together.
This is probably more true for protoss, they like their balls clump and tight,
zerg and terran, not so much. It really boils down to the map types, and we ought to get rid of all these choke point/few entrances maps
I think it's because it's just so much easier to move your entire army around now. Before, if you tried to move 40 dragoons across the map they would go all different directions and just keep bumping into each other but now pathfinding is better and you can put all your units on 1 hotkey.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
Problem is the way SC2 is designed doesn't really cater to action all over the map style. In BW, you can have small engagements all over the place. This is because defenders advantage is much greater and a smaller amount of units can hold off/trade efficiently vs a significantly larger force. So you end up with players having about 50% of their army defending their bases and the rest all over the map.
In SC2, the bigger army (even 20% more support) has a huge advantage. Unless the unit comps are hard hard counters, the bigger army will win and more efficiently. So most SC2 engagements are ball vs ball. You do get multi prong attacks sometimes but most are just base harass and lasts a short time. You rarely see multi fights in different location. Because it is just better to your entire army all together.
This is probably more true for protoss, they like their balls clump and tight,
zerg and terran, not so much. It really boils down to the map types, and we ought to get rid of all these choke point/few entrances maps
I think it's because it's just so much easier to move your entire army around now. Before, if you tried to move 40 dragoons across the map they would go all different directions and just keep bumping into each other but now pathfinding is better and you can put all your units on 1 hotkey.
tell that to my ultralisks, I don't think they got the memo (
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
wow. I gained like 20 apm just from watching that VOD.
Wow watching that just helped me remember how awesome BW actually was, and that SC2 actually has some huge design flaw. As a toss player, I feel like a big problem with the race is that to deal with marine maruder and roach balls, you need AOE, normally collosi because of how cost inefficient stalkers are. Basically the toss army gets stronger as more stuff is in front of the collosi because it's basically a glass cannon. This is the reason why the deathball occurs, and why toss has a hard to of splitting their armies to attack and defend different parts of the map.
When I watch this VoD, I think BW was better than sc2, even if I have never played BW, but we must keep in mind that sc2 isn't fully done yet, there are still two more expansion in coming which might change the game. When I see how TFT changed War3 in a good way, I have faith in the future of sc2
However , the tempo of the games is much faster due to the increased speed in macro because of larvae inject and chronoboost (and mules). So more things will happen in the same time compared to a BW game.
The rumors about SC2 and micro are a bit wrong I think. I think it only applies for zerg and protoss due to some poor design choices. But there is definitely room for improvement here. A lot of terrans are complaining that protoss should use drops more for instance.
When it comes to terran the units become a lot more effective if microed perfectly. The improved pathing and increased control groups also introduces micro capabilities that were never possible in BW.
You should check out some marine vs baneling splitting action if you don't believe me.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
On May 08 2012 11:33 JayDee_ wrote: You guys can thank Blizzard for not allowing LAN. Organizations (kespa, gom, etc) play nice when all somebody has to do is pull the plug.
Lol are you suggesting MKP etc pulled the plug to his computer ie when he was losing to ST_Parting? Can we keep our wild accusations to ourselfs please?
Wait what? That's not at all what he said... He said that if Kespa / GOM doesn't play nice blizzard can shut them down by not giving them server access.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
wow. I gained like 20 apm just from watching that VOD.
Wow watching that just helped me remember how awesome BW actually was, and that SC2 actually has some huge design flaw. As a toss player, I feel like a big problem with the race is that to deal with marine maruder and roach balls, you need AOE, normally collosi because of how cost inefficient stalkers are. Basically the toss army gets stronger as more stuff is in front of the collosi because it's basically a glass cannon. This is the reason why the deathball occurs, and why toss has a hard to of splitting their armies to attack and defend different parts of the map.
That VOD was deffinitely awesome. I do wish SC2 could play more like that, it really lacks that extra dose of action. On the one hand I think the maps could still be bigger, but on the other hand there's not much you can do if the units just work better when balled up rathen than split up.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
Considering that Flash is now in an OSL group with opponents of all 3 races (including the reigning champion Jangbi), he probably will need to cut back on his SC2 practice for the time being if he wants to do well in what could be the last BW OSL.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
Well there's really no need for something of that sort in BW - there aren't anything equivalent to Banelings, short of Infested Terrans. Also, dodging storms is non-existent, simply because no sane Terran would go Bio unless it's a cheese build like BBS or Deep Six.
I don't have a link right now but Light and Flash's TvZ VODs (using SK Terran builds or variations, in other words - pure bio) are amazing displays of multi-splitting marines even with the limitation.
What's more amazing than Happy's micro is the fact that a 200/200 Zerg army can move so well in BW despite the 12-unit limitation. Jaedong, Zero, Soulkey, and Action have shown amazing control in those instances. Also, Happy's micro doesn't really use the hotkey advantage in SC2 - it's selection splitting. That's done in BW as well.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
Well there's really no need for something of that sort in BW - there aren't anything equivalent to Banelings, short of Infested Terrans. Also, dodging storms is non-existent, simply because no sane Terran would go Bio unless it's a cheese build like BBS or Deep Six.
I don't have a link right now but Light and Flash's TvZ VODs (using SK Terran builds or variations, in other words - pure bio) are amazing displays of multi-splitting marines even with the limitation.
What's more amazing than Happy's micro is the fact that a 200/200 Zerg army can move so well in BW despite the 12-unit limitation. Jaedong, Zero, Soulkey, and Action have shown amazing control in those instances. Also, Happy's micro doesn't really use the hotkey advantage in SC2 - it's selection splitting. That's done in BW as well.
Interesting.
I recon that you would have to split like this vs plague, right ?
No sane person would use hotkeys to split marines vs banelings. The reason SC2 makes it easier in this case is that selection groups can be larger than 12 units. This , together with improved pathing makes the control much more consistent so that you can achieve more with less clicks.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
Well there's really no need for something of that sort in BW - there aren't anything equivalent to Banelings, short of Infested Terrans. Also, dodging storms is non-existent, simply because no sane Terran would go Bio unless it's a cheese build like BBS or Deep Six.
I don't have a link right now but Light and Flash's TvZ VODs (using SK Terran builds or variations, in other words - pure bio) are amazing displays of multi-splitting marines even with the limitation.
What's more amazing than Happy's micro is the fact that a 200/200 Zerg army can move so well in BW despite the 12-unit limitation. Jaedong, Zero, Soulkey, and Action have shown amazing control in those instances. Also, Happy's micro doesn't really use the hotkey advantage in SC2 - it's selection splitting. That's done in BW as well.
Interesting.
I recon that you would have to split like this vs plague, right ?
No sane person would use hotkeys to split marines vs banelings. The reason SC2 makes it easier in this case is that selection groups can be larger than 12 units. This , together with improved pathing makes the control much more consistent so that you can achieve more with less clicks.
Ah well you can barely dodge plague, it's nearly instant. You don't know if the Defiler will be casting a swarm or plague as well.
I do agree with what you say: SC2 makes this type of amazing control much simpler to pull off because you can clump them using one hotkey, then split them real fast afterwards.
I think the original point you were trying to make is that in BW, it's impossible to speedkite en masse, not speedkite per se, because there are many examples in BW of a small number of marines kiting against huge swarms of zerglings and pulling out a win.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
lol dodging banelings would take a BW progamer less than one week to master. There was some "dodging" in Brood War as Marines would have to dodge Lurker spines (still not to the extent as you would microing banelings though). But, dodging banelings isn't hard at all if your hands, awareness, and reactions are good enough which I'm sure all the current Bw progamers are because you have to have an unparalleled amount of multitask to play at that level.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
Well there's really no need for something of that sort in BW - there aren't anything equivalent to Banelings, short of Infested Terrans. Also, dodging storms is non-existent, simply because no sane Terran would go Bio unless it's a cheese build like BBS or Deep Six.
I don't have a link right now but Light and Flash's TvZ VODs (using SK Terran builds or variations, in other words - pure bio) are amazing displays of multi-splitting marines even with the limitation.
What's more amazing than Happy's micro is the fact that a 200/200 Zerg army can move so well in BW despite the 12-unit limitation. Jaedong, Zero, Soulkey, and Action have shown amazing control in those instances. Also, Happy's micro doesn't really use the hotkey advantage in SC2 - it's selection splitting. That's done in BW as well.
Interesting.
I recon that you would have to split like this vs plague, right ?
No sane person would use hotkeys to split marines vs banelings. The reason SC2 makes it easier in this case is that selection groups can be larger than 12 units. This , together with improved pathing makes the control much more consistent so that you can achieve more with less clicks.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
lol dodging banelings would take a BW progamer less than one week to master. There was some "dodging" in Brood War as Marines would have to dodge Lurker spines (still not to the extent as you would microing banelings though). But, dodging banelings isn't hard at all if your hands, awareness, and reactions are good enough which I'm sure all the current Bw progamers are because you have to have an unparalleled amount of multitask to play at that level.
I'm sure they could learn it. The point was that it was kind of a new concept. Splitting cost effective is not that hard, any master level terran has to be able to do that. But if you wanna do it like Happy, you have to practice. More than a week I guarantee you.
MKP was one of the pioneers when it came to marine micro, but if you compare his marine splitting now to how it looked 6-12 months ago the difference is astounding.
It is gonna be so interesting to see what Flash can do.
Logically he would be able to reach the absolute top. Even semi-retired BW pros like JulyZerg , Boxer and ForGG has been in code S , or very close at least. MVP who probably was the best BW player by the time he switched over has been truly impressive to watch.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
lol dodging banelings would take a BW progamer less than one week to master. There was some "dodging" in Brood War as Marines would have to dodge Lurker spines (still not to the extent as you would microing banelings though). But, dodging banelings isn't hard at all if your hands, awareness, and reactions are good enough which I'm sure all the current Bw progamers are because you have to have an unparalleled amount of multitask to play at that level.
I'm sure they could learn it. The point was that it was kind of a new concept. Splitting cost effective is not that hard, any master level terran has to be able to do that. But if you wanna do it like Happy, you have to practice. More than a week I guarantee you.
MKP was one of the pioneers when it came to marine micro, but if you compare his marine splitting now to how it looked 6-12 months ago the difference is astounding.
It is gonna be so interesting to see what Flash can do.
Logically he would be able to reach the absolute top. Even semi-retired BW pros like JulyZerg , Boxer and ForGG has been in code S , or very close at least. MVP who probably was the best BW player by the time he switched over has been truly impressive to watch.
On May 08 2012 19:48 Garmer wrote: the only thing not possibile in BW, is the super fast kiting
then you don't understand much about sc2.
im a master league player in sc2, and I promise you that the mechanics of BW players will pay off immensely. the units are microable , and this will probably improve even more in the expansion.
multitasking is very rewarding also.
i never said : there is no micro in SC2, just that in SC2 the only micro not present in BW is the fast-kiting, stuff like marine splitting against bane, can be done with any units in BW, isn't exactly something never seen
do you play sc2? if so , in what league ?
splitting large groups of marines super quickly would not be possible in BW.
why ? well, you can only select 12 units at the time, and the unit pathing is awful which might counteract what you are trying to achieve.
edit: this is one of the reasons why former WC3 players do so well in Sc2 imo, their micro really shines.
lol dodging banelings would take a BW progamer less than one week to master. There was some "dodging" in Brood War as Marines would have to dodge Lurker spines (still not to the extent as you would microing banelings though). But, dodging banelings isn't hard at all if your hands, awareness, and reactions are good enough which I'm sure all the current Bw progamers are because you have to have an unparalleled amount of multitask to play at that level.
I'm sure they could learn it. The point was that it was kind of a new concept. Splitting cost effective is not that hard, any master level terran has to be able to do that. But if you wanna do it like Happy, you have to practice. More than a week I guarantee you.
MKP was one of the pioneers when it came to marine micro, but if you compare his marine splitting now to how it looked 6-12 months ago the difference is astounding.
It is gonna be so interesting to see what Flash can do.
Logically he would be able to reach the absolute top. Even semi-retired BW pros like JulyZerg , Boxer and ForGG has been in code S , or very close at least. MVP who probably was the best BW player by the time he switched over has been truly impressive to watch.
It's going to be exciting for sure!
In terms of breathtaking displays of micro, I think Baby and Leta, and Fantasy to a lesser extent, have shown fancier stuff with marines (not applicable to Fantasy), vultures, and wraiths. But Flash is always the most amazing because his small decisions, in context, lead to amazing results. His micro and macro is, of course, at the peak.
And to all those saying Flash's APM isn't as high as others... in EAPM he ranks right up there with Jaedong and Bisu (hovering at 250-280). That's cause his APM is at a consistent, efficient pace and doesn't peak too much (which is why he can be out-multitasked by, for example, Baby in TvT or Bisu in PvT). He doesn't play moment by moment but whole game by whole game. Amazing really. Hopefully he can show that in SC2 as well.
Name translated into "I'm coming", started playing during the time of Flash's wrist surgery rehabilitation and was placed in platinum, lots of games played during rehabilitation, quickly moved into master league, less games played during Flash's huge win streak, more games played during Flash's losses, heaps of games played recently, currently in a two digit rank of master league and of course a Terran player.
On May 08 2012 07:13 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Here's a great video (Second part of 2, but this is the more action packed part) of Jaedong's insance speed in first person view.
Trying to find a flash fpvod but it seems that none exist.
Looks like FBH is confirmed, and unfortunately confirmed to play P...not a big loss compared to if Bisu switched to T
He's going to FF-donut opponents and dance around them like he did around savior, pretending to be a forcefield.
I can't wait.
I saw ForGG play a "firebathero" on his stream. FBH was playing Protoss which is why no one in the chat (me included) belived it was the real FBH. Anyways I asked ForGG but he said he didn't know if it was him or not.
Looks like FBH is confirmed, and unfortunately confirmed to play P...not a big loss compared to if Bisu switched to T
He's going to FF-donut opponents and dance around them like he did around savior, pretending to be a forcefield.
I can't wait.
I saw ForGG play a "firebathero" on his stream. FBH was playing Protoss which is why no one in the chat (me included) belived it was the real FBH. Anyways I asked ForGG but he said he didn't know if it was him or not.
Yeah it was confirmed multiple times that FBH switched to P...I think ForGG either didn't understand you or didn't want to reveal it on stream b/c of Kespa. But now since everything has been announced, my guess is you'll see some reveals soon, although probably not S class players.
Looks like FBH is confirmed, and unfortunately confirmed to play P...not a big loss compared to if Bisu switched to T
He's going to FF-donut opponents and dance around them like he did around savior, pretending to be a forcefield.
I can't wait.
I saw ForGG play a "firebathero" on his stream. FBH was playing Protoss which is why no one in the chat (me included) belived it was the real FBH. Anyways I asked ForGG but he said he didn't know if it was him or not.
Yeah it was confirmed multiple times that FBH switched to P...I think ForGG either didn't understand you or didn't want to reveal it on stream b/c of Kespa. But now since everything has been announced, my guess is you'll see some reveals soon, although probably not S class players.
FBH couldn't beat a protoss, so he became a protoss!
Looks like FBH is confirmed, and unfortunately confirmed to play P...not a big loss compared to if Bisu switched to T
He's going to FF-donut opponents and dance around them like he did around savior, pretending to be a forcefield.
I can't wait.
I saw ForGG play a "firebathero" on his stream. FBH was playing Protoss which is why no one in the chat (me included) belived it was the real FBH. Anyways I asked ForGG but he said he didn't know if it was him or not.
Considering firebathero has been confirmed playing protoss with top MMR, it's safe to assume it was him.
I'm surprised no one has reposted this yet (or at least I don't think anyone has) The original thread was closed because they want centralization of discussion here
Apparently some SC2 announcement thing happened. Here's a quick translation. If enough people want I'll go through a more thorough translation
KT's head tried to sorta jokingly ask bisu if he wants to transfer to KT, and all the other players QQed saying it'd be OP
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
To Flash's comment on protoss bisu said "I don't even grasp SC2 enough to say which race is good" and everyone yelled at him for it. But he responded "It's only been a short time since I've started practicing and the fact that I can't even understand why he would say protoss is OP makes me frustrated at myself"
Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level. Also according to Calm the Air Force Ace team's Sc2 skills are pretty high.
There are players chaning races in SC2, and apparently one player in particular has gotten a lot of attention for being godly at the new race that they're play.
On May 09 2012 15:37 knyttym wrote: I'm surprised no one has reposted this yet (or at least I don't think anyone has) The original thread was closed because they want centralization of discussion here
Apparently some SC2 announcement thing happened. Here's a quick translation. If enough people want I'll go through a more thorough translation
KT's head tried to sorta jokingly ask bisu if he wants to transfer to KT, and all the other players QQed saying it'd be OP
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
To Flash's comment on protoss bisu said "I don't even grasp SC2 enough to say which race is good" and everyone yelled at him for it. But he responded "It's only been a short time since I've started practicing and the fact that I can't even understand why he would say protoss is OP makes me frustrated at myself"
Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level. Also according to Calm the Air Force Ace team's Sc2 skills are pretty high.
There are players chaning races in SC2, and apparently one player in particular has gotten a lot of attention for being godly at the new race that they're play.
*will keep updating
Edit: mistranslation
Can anyone hunt down flash, bisu, soulkey, or zero's account on sc2ranks?
On May 09 2012 15:37 knyttym wrote: I'm surprised no one has reposted this yet (or at least I don't think anyone has) The original thread was closed because they want centralization of discussion here
Apparently some SC2 announcement thing happened. Here's a quick translation. If enough people want I'll go through a more thorough translation
KT's head tried to sorta jokingly ask bisu if he wants to transfer to KT, and all the other players QQed saying it'd be OP
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
To Flash's comment on protoss bisu said "I don't even grasp SC2 enough to say which race is good" and everyone yelled at him for it. But he responded "It's only been a short time since I've started practicing and the fact that I can't even understand why he would say protoss is OP makes me frustrated at myself"
Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level. Also according to Calm the Air Force Ace team's Sc2 skills are pretty high.
There are players chaning races in SC2, and apparently one player in particular has gotten a lot of attention for being godly at the new race that they're play.
*will keep updating
Edit: mistranslation
Can anyone hunt down flash, bisu, soulkey, or zero's account on sc2ranks?
On May 09 2012 15:37 knyttym wrote: I'm surprised no one has reposted this yet (or at least I don't think anyone has) The original thread was closed because they want centralization of discussion here
Apparently some SC2 announcement thing happened. Here's a quick translation. If enough people want I'll go through a more thorough translation
KT's head tried to sorta jokingly ask bisu if he wants to transfer to KT, and all the other players QQed saying it'd be OP
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
To Flash's comment on protoss bisu said "I don't even grasp SC2 enough to say which race is good" and everyone yelled at him for it. But he responded "It's only been a short time since I've started practicing and the fact that I can't even understand why he would say protoss is OP makes me frustrated at myself"
Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level. Also according to Calm the Air Force Ace team's Sc2 skills are pretty high.
There are players chaning races in SC2, and apparently one player in particular has gotten a lot of attention for being godly at the new race that they're play.
*will keep updating
Edit: mistranslation
Can anyone hunt down flash, bisu, soulkey, or zero's account on sc2ranks?
I posted a possible Flash account on the previous page, have a look at tell me what you think.
On May 09 2012 17:46 PredY wrote: i wonder what 3 units he rolled with. MMM? not that you need much more right??
Lol, I kinda imagine Flash entering the GSL qualifier (code b) beating everyone with MMM, crushes through Code A with only MMM, even though the opponent knows what's coming he still loses and then becomes GSL champion with only MMM.
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
what? u mean 3 types of units right? cause 3 units is just nuts, gotta have 666 micro for that
On May 09 2012 17:46 PredY wrote: i wonder what 3 units he rolled with. MMM? not that you need much more right??
That or marine+tank+medivac I guess I'm actually so excited to see some games from one of the top BW dogs now , I know they won't be amazing yet but I'm sure it's possible to recognize potential through their mechanics.
On May 09 2012 10:53 Mirror0423 wrote: Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level.
o_o That's nice and everything, I'd be down with Soulkey dominating. But dude...you've kinda got an OSL to win right now.
On May 09 2012 10:53 Mirror0423 wrote: Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level.
o_o That's nice and everything, I'd be down with Soulkey dominating. But dude...you've kinda got an OSL to win right now.
It's quite a difficult decision to make though, are you gonna train your ass off for the last BW OSL, with the chance of falling behind when you transition to sc2? Or are you gonna play it safe?
On May 09 2012 10:53 Mirror0423 wrote: Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level.
o_o That's nice and everything, I'd be down with Soulkey dominating. But dude...you've kinda got an OSL to win right now.
It's quite a difficult decision to make though, are you gonna train your ass off for the last BW OSL, with the chance of falling behind when you transition to sc2? Or are you gonna play it safe?
2 weeks for possibility in being written in history books or 2 weeks of laddering? Not really a hard choice...
On May 08 2012 01:20 ppshchik wrote: MMA did say that Zero will do best in SC2 amongst all BW pros in an interview. Him as a former BW pro who doesn not following the "Flash" bandwagon means something. Zero must have a good understanding of SC2.
I doubt SC2 TvP and TvZ really reward Flash's turtling playstyle. Flash should play SC2 protoss so he can turtle til he has 3-3 voidray colossi or something
Way to dumb down one of the best Starcraft pros. if Zero was so damn good then why was he so mediocre in BW?
Because maybe he didn't have fast enough fingers? In BW, someone can know perfectly what to do in each situation, but still lose just because he isn't fast enough. That's also why Idra thinks Stork is going to be good at SC2, he doesn't have hands as fast as the younger ones, but he has a better understanding of the game.
You don't need fast hands to play protoss in brood war.
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
Only the slightest possibility that Flash might reconsider his choice to play terran makes me nervous :S Just play terran Flash. Don't look back!
He is supposed to help us terrans out of the dark age with large macro maps and no viable terran lategame, lol
Someone should do some statistical analysis on TL's forum balance whine. Would be funny to see the trends : like "Terran OP" before pros figured out 111 and "Protoss OP" nowadays.
Then why more people dont play P and win more of the big tournaments?
Protoss is strong Protoss players are bad ( exept a few one )
Well none of top EU P players were able to stop Stephano's roaches at Take's recent invitational. They all just got crushed by that even they knew what was coming. Clearly P overpowered...
You leave Z alone as P.. you die to mass / tech. You leave P alone as T.. you die to tech.
Ah that's true. I still grin when I remember all the 2base all-ins that Protoss were doing without experimenting with anything else. But what do I know ~
It's silly to switch to the strongest race anyway. If it's really that strong, Blizzard will do something about it. They should understand that right? It works like that in SC2.
On May 09 2012 20:05 ZenithM wrote: It's silly to switch to the strongest race anyway. If it's really that strong, Blizzard will do something about it. They should understand that right? It works like that in SC2.
On May 09 2012 20:05 ZenithM wrote: It's silly to switch to the strongest race anyway. If it's really that strong, Blizzard will do something about it. They should understand that right? It works like that in SC2.
Actually that's a good point. What if they think that the game is gonna stay the way it is now forever? xP That would explain all these comments. Inb4 flash-keanu reeves meme.
Lol its to early to call this, almost everyone tries different races at the beginning, in the end they choose after SOME time and stick to it. Flash said he still did not experience all 3 races and he was playing terran mainly. Lets wait after OSL for more concrete standings, because now it will change a lot, all players could aswell switch again even those who are playing in masters/GM.
On May 09 2012 20:05 ZenithM wrote: It's silly to switch to the strongest race anyway. If it's really that strong, Blizzard will do something about it. They should understand that right? It works like that in SC2.
Not
? I'm not saying they'll patch if a Protoss win the GSL. But surely if there are 32 Protoss in Code S Blizzard will do something you know. It does work like that, you cannot let a game in a state of complete imbalance if you care for esports just one bit.
So, I'm saying that even if pros believe a race is stronger at the moment, doesn't mean it will stay that way for too long, so it's silly to choose based on current balance. Surely you must see that right? And I'm not even talking about innovation from players themselves, balancing around maps and metagame shifts...
Edit: The keyword here is "current". Balance shifts all the time. If they were joining in late 2010, they would have all picked Terran and been doing stim timings and abusing cliffs with siege tanks right?
Then why more people dont play P and win more of the big tournaments?
Protoss is strong Protoss players are bad ( exept a few one )
Well none of top EU P players were able to stop Stephano's roaches at Take's recent invitational. They all just got crushed by that even they knew what was coming. Clearly P overpowered...
You leave Z alone as P.. you die to mass / tech. You leave P alone as T.. you die to tech.
What top EU P players are better than Stephano? And putting on pressure vs P and Z are two completely different things. Forcing unit production so zerg can't drone is key in both T and P vs. Z, while in TvP, at most u force some sentry warp ins.
On May 09 2012 20:05 ZenithM wrote: It's silly to switch to the strongest race anyway. If it's really that strong, Blizzard will do something about it. They should understand that right? It works like that in SC2.
Not
? I'm not saying they'll patch if a Protoss win the GSL. But surely if there are 32 Protoss in Code S Blizzard will do something you know. It does work like that, you cannot let a game in a state of complete imbalance if you care for esports just one bit.
So, I'm saying that even if pros believe a race is stronger at the moment, doesn't mean it will stay that way for too long, so it's silly to choose based on current balance. Surely you must see that right? And I'm not even talking about innovation from players themselves, balancing around maps and metagame shifts...
Edit: The keyword here is "current". Balance shifts all the time. If they were joining in late 2010, they would have all picked Terran and been doing stim timings and abusing cliffs with siege tanks right?
You said "It works like that in SC2", I said "Not" as in a "Not-joke". Because Blizzard is just trolling us (terran players) since august 2010.
Look at how action packed that ZvP is god damn I hope it can be like that in SC2 some day.
Problem is the way SC2 is designed doesn't really cater to action all over the map style. In BW, you can have small engagements all over the place. This is because defenders advantage is much greater and a smaller amount of units can hold off/trade efficiently vs a significantly larger force. So you end up with players having about 50% of their army defending their bases and the rest all over the map.
In SC2, the bigger army (even 20% more support) has a huge advantage. Unless the unit comps are hard hard counters, the bigger army will win and more efficiently. So most SC2 engagements are ball vs ball. You do get multi prong attacks sometimes but most are just base harass and lasts a short time. You rarely see multi fights in different location. Because it is just better to your entire army all together.
This is probably more true for protoss, they like their balls clump and tight,
zerg and terran, not so much. It really boils down to the map types, and we ought to get rid of all these choke point/few entrances maps
I think it's because it's just so much easier to move your entire army around now. Before, if you tried to move 40 dragoons across the map they would go all different directions and just keep bumping into each other but now pathfinding is better and you can put all your units on 1 hotkey.
That's one point, but the defenders advantage is a main factor. Unit Pathing and Control groups just emphazises the lazyness of players but would be seen less (after a lot of time) if there were the same defenders advantage as in bw.
Flash said "Toss is too strong, I regreat picking terran" According to him, it's been 10 days since he's started seriously practicing, but he rolled ladder with just 3 units only.
what? u mean 3 types of units right? cause 3 units is just nuts, gotta have 666 micro for that
I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
It was only a month ago when people were saying that all the BW pro's were switching to Terran so I wouldn't be too bothered by it. There haven't been many P's with tournament wins so a few more top Protoss wouldn't hurt.
Also if Flash only used 3 units I can imagine why he's having a hard time vs P, with no vikings vs colossi and EMP vs HT :p.
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
GSL alone is not an indicator of balance.
Depends what balance you want. No it doesn't cover the average ladder player but it got the best pro players in the world.
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
Zergs were doing bad previous season as well tbh. DRG was the only zerg in the round of 8.
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
Zergs were doing bad previous season as well tbh. DRG was the only zerg in the round of 8.
Right, I meant in general TLPD winrates. Why is there supposed balance across the board when Zerg has only one or two notorious top finishers each season? What isn't carrying over from ladder and other tournaments (because Zergs do just fine there) into the GSL?
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
Zergs were doing bad previous season as well tbh. DRG was the only zerg in the round of 8.
Right, I meant in general TLPD winrates. Why is there supposed balance across the board when Zerg has only one or two notorious top finishers each season? What isn't carrying over from ladder and other tournaments (because Zergs do just fine there) into the GSL?
Probably the time to prepare. Zergs are the most vurnable to timing attacks since they don't have a "oh shit" solution to stop or at least delay an attack. If you got the wrong units out, you die. You have no forcefields, you cannot move your natural to your main. They also got the lovely design that their main bust units (banelings) actually get lost no matter what. I dunno how this went in BW and i don't claim to be an expert in any means but zerg simply lacks utility.
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
Zergs were doing bad previous season as well tbh. DRG was the only zerg in the round of 8.
Right, I meant in general TLPD winrates. Why is there supposed balance across the board when Zerg has only one or two notorious top finishers each season? What isn't carrying over from ladder and other tournaments (because Zergs do just fine there) into the GSL?
Probably the time to prepare. Zergs are the most vurnable to timing attacks since they don't have a "oh shit" solution to stop or at least delay an attack. If you got the wrong units out, you die. You have no forcefields, you cannot move your natural to your main. They also got the lovely design that their main bust units (banelings) actually get lost no matter what. I dunno how this went in BW and i don't claim to be an expert in any means but zerg simply lacks utility.
I think that's why Zerg was given the fastest units with the most mobility (mutalisks, zerglings, overlord drop/ nydus options, etc.), to keep harrassing- especially with multi-pronged attacks, as Zerg isn't necessarily supposed to win in a straight up engagement (although some of their unit compositions aren't terrible, to be honest).
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
Zergs were doing bad previous season as well tbh. DRG was the only zerg in the round of 8.
Right, I meant in general TLPD winrates. Why is there supposed balance across the board when Zerg has only one or two notorious top finishers each season? What isn't carrying over from ladder and other tournaments (because Zergs do just fine there) into the GSL?
Probably the time to prepare. Zergs are the most vurnable to timing attacks since they don't have a "oh shit" solution to stop or at least delay an attack. If you got the wrong units out, you die. You have no forcefields, you cannot move your natural to your main. They also got the lovely design that their main bust units (banelings) actually get lost no matter what. I dunno how this went in BW and i don't claim to be an expert in any means but zerg simply lacks utility.
I think that's why Zerg was given the fastest units with the most mobility (mutalisks, zerglings, overlord drop/ nydus options, etc.), to keep harrassing- especially with multi-pronged attacks, as Zerg isn't necessarily supposed to win in a straight up engagement (although some of their unit compositions aren't terrible, to be honest).
Oh ofc some of the compositions aren't terrible, otherwise we would never seen a GSL win in the first place. about the mobility tough, stalkers and MMM are pretty dam fast as well, not as fast as lings muta's but they can do quite a bit more damage as well since they don't melt usually. Hell, maybe its the players and not the race. We constantly see new terran and new protoss coming up in code A/S except for zerg. It's about time to get a fresh batch of them, the last was DRG and how many months was that ago.
I really dislike trying to get statements like this, as they just try to just get an "out-there" statement that can cause some controversy, and then people just run with it like shown here in this thread. I wish that people could just read stuff like this with a grain of salt. Most of the Koreans at HSC4 were basically just going "imba imba imba" at every possible thing when they commentated, and I think it just extends to something like this.
On May 09 2012 23:28 Mirosuu wrote: I really dislike trying to get statements like this, as they just try to just get an "out-there" statement that can cause some controversy, and then people just run with it like shown here in this thread. I wish that people could just read stuff like this with a grain of salt. Most of the Koreans at HSC4 were basically just going "imba imba imba" at every possible thing when they commentated, and I think it just extends to something like this.
the imba imba thing at HSC4 was just MC fooling around. Hell he called marine vs marine imba vs imba.
On May 09 2012 23:46 SoniStreet wrote: BTW how come there is no Flash Fanclub thread yet??? I have tried looking for Flash Fanclub, KT_Flash Fanclub but had no luck in finding it
On May 09 2012 22:11 iCastor wrote: I am a Protoss player and I do think Protoss is a little strong even though I have a lot of trouble with zerg... anyone watching the GSL code S??? 3 toss top 4 :D
iirc, when it was DRG vs. Genius, the other two players in the top four were both Terrans So it hardly matters.
Terran and Protoss were pretty even throughout the GSL this season. It's really the Zergs we should be looking at- how poorly they're doing, despite Zerg supposedly doing just fine against Protoss and Terran.
Zergs were doing bad previous season as well tbh. DRG was the only zerg in the round of 8.
Right, I meant in general TLPD winrates. Why is there supposed balance across the board when Zerg has only one or two notorious top finishers each season? What isn't carrying over from ladder and other tournaments (because Zergs do just fine there) into the GSL?
Probably the time to prepare. Zergs are the most vurnable to timing attacks since they don't have a "oh shit" solution to stop or at least delay an attack. If you got the wrong units out, you die. You have no forcefields, you cannot move your natural to your main. They also got the lovely design that their main bust units (banelings) actually get lost no matter what. I dunno how this went in BW and i don't claim to be an expert in any means but zerg simply lacks utility.
I think that's why Zerg was given the fastest units with the most mobility (mutalisks, zerglings, overlord drop/ nydus options, etc.), to keep harrassing- especially with multi-pronged attacks, as Zerg isn't necessarily supposed to win in a straight up engagement (although some of their unit compositions aren't terrible, to be honest).
Really it's the creep. speeding up both your units and acting as a cloaked observer. It never feels like I can attack zerg if he has sufficient creep spread as I have to spend time going Alpha Centauri on the creep.
On May 09 2012 23:28 Mirosuu wrote: I really dislike trying to get statements like this, as they just try to just get an "out-there" statement that can cause some controversy, and then people just run with it like shown here in this thread. I wish that people could just read stuff like this with a grain of salt. Most of the Koreans at HSC4 were basically just going "imba imba imba" at every possible thing when they commentated, and I think it just extends to something like this.
the imba imba thing at HSC4 was just MC fooling around. Hell he called marine vs marine imba vs imba.
Yeah, and as I said, it's usually done in the same manner as the stuff that happened at HSC4. It's just to grab some attention, not really for any substance and people shouldn't buy into it so much, but hell, because it's flash, it must be true. -rolls eyes-
On May 09 2012 10:53 Mirror0423 wrote: Clam said "Soulkey and Zero just dominates on ladder all day". According to Calm they play Zerg on a different level.
I see what you did there...
Also, Soulkey I am glad to hear your stomping noobs faces in SC2 and look forward to your continued domination there but don't forget you also have an OSL to win!
Oh trust me, he is. He was one of the first slain, and is hidden somewhere in the bottom of the pile.
more importantly, who is the girl??? : D
She represents me.
And I doubt that Kespa will allow Flash to stream.
Why would they? Can they really dictate if one player can stream or not? :/
yes ur team. that u play for and have a contract with u. can dictate this stuff.
but i doubt even flash wants 2 show his practice. progamers dont even like that there are videos of their official games. cause the other teams just pick them apart. no reason 2 show ur practice like that.
On May 10 2012 03:33 Tchado wrote: The elephant will die
The elephant will rise
Let's wait and see. I'll bet only a few elephants will rise (the major ones) and show us the awesome, while some will go the way of ForGG (the way of mediocrity) and some will flat out fail.
On May 10 2012 03:33 Tchado wrote: The elephant will die
The elephant will rise
Let's wait and see. I'll bet only a few elephants will rise (the major ones) and show us the awesome, while some will go the way of ForGG (the way of mediocrity) and some will flat out fail.
Since when is being a Code S player being "mediocre"? Especially since everybody else had about ao ne year head start on him.
On May 10 2012 03:33 Tchado wrote: The elephant will die
The elephant will rise
Let's wait and see. I'll bet only a few elephants will rise (the major ones) and show us the awesome, while some will go the way of ForGG (the way of mediocrity) and some will flat out fail.
Since when is being a Code S player being "mediocre"? Especially since everybody else had about a one year head start on him.
On May 10 2012 03:33 Tchado wrote: The elephant will die
The elephant will rise
Let's wait and see. I'll bet only a few elephants will rise (the major ones) and show us the awesome, while some will go the way of ForGG (the way of mediocrity) and some will flat out fail.
The thing people like you keep forgetting is that ForGG or MVP didn't have A team Brood War progamers to practice with after their transition. They were forced to practice with players that were mediocre in Brood War (not having the same mindset as a progamer). Plus, they don't have their original coaches who were experienced veterans in competitive StarCraft gaming. These two factors play a huge role in how good somebody could really be.
On May 10 2012 03:33 Tchado wrote: The elephant will die
The elephant will rise
Let's wait and see. I'll bet only a few elephants will rise (the major ones) and show us the awesome, while some will go the way of ForGG (the way of mediocrity) and some will flat out fail.
Since when is being a Code S player being "mediocre"? Especially since everybody else had about ao ne year head start on him.
he still has the option to gain a Code S spot for next season though; he will fight Happy
and I didn't mean to insult his skills or his fans or anything. Imho, he's just not top tier, that's what I meant by mediocre. Compared to the hype train he himself started he objectively underperformed though.
Flash probably will be in Code A and maybe even make it into Code S if he does that is amazing in itself. I do think his best chance will be Heart of the Swarm.
Looks like FBH is confirmed, and unfortunately confirmed to play P...not a big loss compared to if Bisu switched to T
Stork is here too ! He's playing WoW at the top of MC's Friendlist :D
Oh stork.
hahahahahaha
FBH is def the one I want to see enter the pro scene the most.
Here. He. Comes.
honestly mc's throat slash is hardly one of his best ceremonies.. i would rank him up there along with fbh for ceremonies
I'm a huge MC fan, but nothing in life will ever come close to FBH throwing steamed rice at his opponents booth, dancing while stripping down to swim shorts and then jumping in the ocean. By far the best ceremony in the history of ceremonies.
Edit: In case someone hasn't seen it....
Also Watch all of Cholera's videos.. especially The Reach ones.... will miss them both T.T
Looks like FBH is confirmed, and unfortunately confirmed to play P...not a big loss compared to if Bisu switched to T
Stork is here too ! He's playing WoW at the top of MC's Friendlist :D
Oh stork.
hahahahahaha
FBH is def the one I want to see enter the pro scene the most.
Here. He. Comes.
honestly mc's throat slash is hardly one of his best ceremonies.. i would rank him up there along with fbh for ceremonies
I'm a huge MC fan, but nothing in life will ever come close to FBH throwing steamed rice at his opponents booth, dancing while stripping down to swim shorts and then jumping in the ocean. By far the best ceremony in the history of ceremonies.
Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
"Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games."
Flash: In my heart, I'd love to catch up in three months, but realistically I think it will take a year. If I want to reach my SC1 level of skill, I think it will take 2~3 years.
On May 10 2012 12:19 Holgerius wrote: Flash: In my heart, I'd love to catch up in three months, but realistically I think it will take a year. If I want to reach my SC1 level of skill, I think it will take 2~3 years.
So he's going to win every single LotV GSL tournament? Great.
On May 10 2012 12:10 raf3776 wrote: Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
On May 10 2012 12:10 raf3776 wrote: Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
On May 10 2012 12:10 raf3776 wrote: Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
On May 10 2012 12:10 raf3776 wrote: Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. I'll work hard so I can show everyone better games.
On May 10 2012 12:19 Holgerius wrote: Flash: In my heart, I'd love to catch up in three months, but realistically I think it will take a year. If I want to reach my SC1 level of skill, I think it will take 2~3 years.
So he's going to win every single LotV GSL tournament? Great.
Any chance he'll switch to Protoss by then?
I think he should play Terran so he could show us this:
On May 10 2012 12:52 radiantshadow92 wrote: "Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. "
Oh god hes gonna play 21 hours a day till his fingers blister and literally bleed (yes that actually happened and his teammates had to stop him) like in BW.
On May 10 2012 12:52 radiantshadow92 wrote: "Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. "
As I said in the other topic, they show now a really good feeling for SCII , I am kinda worried for the flash statement that it will take up to 2-3 years to take my actual SC:BW skill on SCII.
On May 10 2012 12:52 radiantshadow92 wrote: "Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. "
Oh god hes gonna play 21 hours a day till his fingers blister and literally bleed (yes that actually happened and his teammates had to stop him) like in BW.
Im afraid that Blizzard will have to put additional Battle.net server just for Flash practicing.
On May 10 2012 12:52 radiantshadow92 wrote: "Flash (Rolster): I've become immersed in SC2 and play the game until 3-4 in the morning. It feels like when I first played SC1. "
Oh god hes gonna play 21 hours a day till his fingers blister and literally bleed (yes that actually happened and his teammates had to stop him) like in BW.
Im afraid that Blizzard will have to put additional Battle.net server just for Flash practicing.
I'm glad he is coming over because it will bring korean fans into SC2, but for me unless Jaedong comes I don't care lol. Uber Terran comes in it just hurts Zerg. (although maybe it will cause a buff for Zerg)
YES I am so happy. He is already pretty good. Great control (obv), but good timings it seems, good game sense when to take expos... im so excited about what is to come when the BW pros are regularly playing in sc2 tourneys
Looking at that video just confirms me something. It won't take long for terrans at least to play at a competent level. All races pretty much need the same depth of understanding to play, but breadth-wise not so much as a minimum requirement for terrans. All they need to do is to practice some standard builds and understand them inside-out, then they can start tweaking BOs according to their style from there.
Of course, they would still need more time if they want to play at the highest level which involves mindgames.
By being lucky and finding account which has similar game like in that youtube video does not prove anything yet.
Correct, but it was pretty easy going through his match history to find a game vs NosSave on CK where everything he builds in the FPVOD is at exactly the same supply/in game time as in the post match build order tab.
On May 12 2012 01:42 readytorock wrote: Flash is now using barcode id, so it would be hard to find him. Flash said he was Star Master in interview a few days ago.
I bet he didnt even have to do placement matches and put him right into masters.
By being lucky and finding account which has similar game like in that youtube video does not prove anything yet.
Correct, but it was pretty easy going through his match history to find a game vs NosSave on CK where everything he builds in the FPVOD is at exactly the same supply/in game time as in the post match build order tab.
You cannot say for sure if EVERYTHING is exactly same. That video does not reveal every info needed.
You might have found right account but you cannot be sure.
By being lucky and finding account which has similar game like in that youtube video does not prove anything yet.
Correct, but it was pretty easy going through his match history to find a game vs NosSave on CK where everything he builds in the FPVOD is at exactly the same supply/in game time as in the post match build order tab.
You cannot say for sure if EVERYTHING is exactly same. That video does not reveal every info needed.
You might have found right account but you cannot be sure.
Everything that was shown in the scope of the FPVOD, of course. It would be quite remarkable however for a game to play out precisely as that one did for an amount of time against the same opposition on the same map yesterday, but I accept there is a tiny iota of a chance that could have happened.
I can still say with huge confidence that it is Flash's account however
By being lucky and finding account which has similar game like in that youtube video does not prove anything yet.
Correct, but it was pretty easy going through his match history to find a game vs NosSave on CK where everything he builds in the FPVOD is at exactly the same supply/in game time as in the post match build order tab.
You cannot say for sure if EVERYTHING is exactly same. That video does not reveal every info needed.
You might have found right account but you cannot be sure.
I think the evidence is enough if every build times and battles fits the video. What else do you need ?
Flash´s build was very standard and its not wonder that someone else would build their buildings or units at the same supply. Also you cannot see opponent info in the FPVOD.
If you know total game time and everything built is same as in the accounts game, then you have to check the army value graphs to make sure everything is similar to that game in FPVOD. Then we could assume it really is the same game if everything is similar.
By being lucky and finding account which has similar game like in that youtube video does not prove anything yet.
Correct, but it was pretty easy going through his match history to find a game vs NosSave on CK where everything he builds in the FPVOD is at exactly the same supply/in game time as in the post match build order tab.
You cannot say for sure if EVERYTHING is exactly same. That video does not reveal every info needed.
You might have found right account but you cannot be sure.
Yes you can. Even looking at supply, cross referencing it to the time, and looking at a single units position you can be sure. Sorry mate, but 1/1000000 chance it isnt him does not mean you can say "BUT YOU CANNOT BE SURE!111". God it's like arguing about evolution.
By being lucky and finding account which has similar game like in that youtube video does not prove anything yet.
Correct, but it was pretty easy going through his match history to find a game vs NosSave on CK where everything he builds in the FPVOD is at exactly the same supply/in game time as in the post match build order tab.
You cannot say for sure if EVERYTHING is exactly same. That video does not reveal every info needed.
You might have found right account but you cannot be sure.
Yes you can. Even looking at supply, cross referencing it to the time, and looking at a single units position you can be sure. Sorry mate, but 1/1000000 chance it isnt him does not mean you can say "BUT YOU CANNOT BE SURE!111". God it's like arguing about evolution.
Unit position is possible to be analyzed from post-game results?
Well, if they we're trying to hide it they wouldn't post videos showing him playing on that account. It's not that difficult to have a smurf account and to keep it secret if you want to do that.
Haha, I didn't realize this was the same thread from a few weeks ago being bumped, I read the title in the sidebar and thought "Wait, what? why is Flash practicing translating sc2 articles..."
In regards to the account, you never know if Flash played every game on that account. It could be a team account, or an account picked up from someone else or something.
Jaedong really seems not too experienced yet with the game. He played earlier. He had nearly no creep spread, and didn't handle forcefields very well. He got first trapped in his main with forcefields, and then his army got split by forcefields while walking up a ramp. He got tunneling claws and burrow at least, but still it seems he needs some more time to practice.
On May 20 2012 18:24 Garmer wrote: why they zoomed in, in that game....
It's not zoomed in, its just that they're showing the game in 4:3 screen ratio rather than a widescreen format to keep consistency with BroodWar, it makes SC2 look a bit odd.
I think it might be zoomed in to make it look a little more like BW, where the isometric perspective is a little forced.
Anycase, Flash didn't play particularly well in that game. He was macroing very decently but that was all he did - no pressure, no being active on the map, he just allowed Effort to get to 4base and steamroll him. Also his marine-splits left a little to be desired. It'll be a couple of months before we see them ease into SC2, and it'll be silly to expect GSL-quality games out of these players especially because of the split format.
But these guys know how to learn, and they know how to practice, and they really know how to get ridiculously good at a game. They'll increasingly become a force to be reckoned with and the BW teams are by and large unlike anything in SC2.
EPT
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