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On April 30 2012 22:14 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:13 Acer1791 wrote:On April 30 2012 22:10 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 22:07 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 21:56 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Flash probably will be another very good SC2 player but it is not quaranteed that he will dominate the game like in BW. This is also because of easier mechanics and the game in general is faster than BW so it makes it easier for everyone to get more wins. People always say this but can never back it up with statistics. It would seem like tlpd win rates of the top top BW pros and SC2 pros are very similar. It would seem like the best still win... What? Was MKP or MVP or whatever winrates in bw lately same as his current peak? no he means the best in bw have the same winrates as the best in sc2 Of course they are similar because they kinda dominate the sc2 currently. But it actually supports what I just said in my previous post. Those who were not so good at BW are now very good at SC2.
It doesn't supports anything. Cause not only can people change (scary I know), people have different things that they each excels at
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On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters.
Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
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On April 30 2012 22:57 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters. Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
I would not say GSL is consistent, people drop to code A and rise up to code S constantly and championship titles are given to different players all the time. It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
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On April 30 2012 22:57 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters. Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling!
We are talking about Flash here.
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If these stars switch it might make SC2 bigger than LOL which apparently is taking over as the biggest esport in Korea?
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Lets hope for the happy ending.
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On April 30 2012 23:17 Mech0z wrote:
If these stars switch it might make SC2 bigger than LOL which apparently is taking over as the biggest esport in Korea?
Remains to be seen obviously, but i also do question the longevity of LoL as a esport, i wonder what kind of presence DOTA 2 will have.
But SC2's popularity will undoubtedly go up with Kespa on board, question is how much? Will be interesting to see where we are at come late 2012, how popular is the game and what effect will HotS have.
I bet Blizzard is trying to get some good feedback on units for that expansion that will have a positive effect on the game and make even more exciting.
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On April 30 2012 23:16 zergmacro34 wrote:
bw is dead
long live sc2!
This is asking for a flame war.
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I would be happier to see Flash training for SC2 than just translating articles :/
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When is the next season (Aka when should we expect him aboard fully)
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On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:57 boxman22 wrote:On April 30 2012 22:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I dont think we are seeing anything as stabilized in SC2 in tournament results as in BW where we see Flash constantly beating everyone. GSL championship players wildly change currently, and other tournaments are even better examples of that. It seems currently, that everyone can beat everyone in SC2. And the foreigner vs korean gap is not so hopeless at all.
In BW, there is more trust that Flash will actually win the tournament where he enters. Except that's literally ONLY flash. Otherwise, sc2 is comparably predictable. Just look at how consistent the people in Code S are... Sure there isn't one person who dominates everything, but that's a new thing in bw anyway. Plus, *gasp* flash lost two straight to lose the teamleague and didn't win the last OSL. BW must not have a high enough skill ceiling! I would not say GSL is consistent, people drop to code A and rise up to code S constantly and championship titles are given to different players all the time. It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Okay let's use some stats. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League/Player_Progress: 20/30 people stayed in code s. 8 made the round of 16 both seasons.
Comparing the last 2 major tournaments: the jinair osl and abcmart msl. 4 of the same 16 people in the round of 16. 4... so much for consistency.
Comparing the 24 in the osl currently going on and the last one: 11 of the same people out of 24. It's just selective memory thinking that there is SO much more consistency in broodwar. The only thing that was once consistent was flash winning. And even that may not be so consistent anymore...
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Really cool. Ready to see the magic happen.
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On April 30 2012 23:27 Holytornados wrote:This is asking for a flame war.
If you take it into the context of the original usage (Kingly succession), not so much.
Anyway, people who have no idea how BW was played shouldn't really make predictions on how players will eventually perform in SC2.
MVP, who was the most mechanically proficient BW-player who switched (removing Nada from the equation, since his mechanics were probably better but who lacked a lot of the technical proficiency required in the modern era of BW), dominated during his peak. ForGG, a timing/build-order/strategic mind with monster macro, is a Code S player but hasn't really shined all that much. Hyun, an A-teamer from MBC (granted, he was the only decent Zerg at that time), is improving fast but is showing bad results atm.
This means that while there is a transfer of skills from one game to the other, the results cannot really be predicted because players have different strengths. For instance, I would still take ForGG over MVP any day in a BW series, but I would take MVP any day in a SC2 series. That's simply because MVP's skills transferred over better.
Now if you take Flash, whose skills are all at the highest level in BW, and put him in SC2, then you can definitely say he'll succeed, because he was so versatile in BW with no real weakness. Whatever made MVP, MKP, MMA etc succeed will be skills that Flash already possesses in a more abundant way. So really, I think that those who don't know the different strengths/weaknesses of the players in BW shouldn't attempt to make predictions.
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On April 30 2012 23:27 Holytornados wrote:This is asking for a flame war.
No he is right looking at the way things are going starcraft 3 will be coming out soon after lotv .
On April 30 2012 23:37 Caladbolg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:27 Holytornados wrote:On April 30 2012 23:16 zergmacro34 wrote:
bw is dead
long live sc2! This is asking for a flame war. If you take it into the context of the original usage (Kingly succession), not so much. Anyway, people who have no idea how BW was played shouldn't really make predictions on how players will eventually perform in SC2. MVP, who was the most mechanically proficient BW-player who switched (removing Nada from the equation, since his mechanics were probably better but who lacked a lot of the technical proficiency required in the modern era of BW), dominated during his peak. ForGG, a timing/build-order/strategic mind with monster macro, is a Code S player but hasn't really shined all that much. Hyun, an A-teamer from MBC (granted, he was the only decent Zerg at that time), is improving fast but is showing bad results atm. This means that while there is a transfer of skills from one game to the other, the results cannot really be predicted because players have different strengths. For instance, I would still take ForGG over MVP any day in a BW series, but I would take MVP any day in a SC2 series. That's simply because MVP's skills transferred over better. Now if you take Flash, whose skills are all at the highest level in BW, and put him in SC2, then you can definitely say he'll succeed, because he was so versatile in BW with no real weakness. Whatever made MVP, MKP, MMA etc succeed will be skills that Flash already possesses in a more abundant way. So really, I think that those who don't know the different strengths/weaknesses of the players in BW shouldn't attempt to make predictions.
Well if you do that here people will say you are restricting their right to freedom of speech based on their knowledge in the subject at hand just because they didn't play bw.
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What are those strenghts and weaknesses if you know them? What is the thing that makes MVP succesful in sc2 but forgg not?
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On April 30 2012 23:39 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
What are those strenghts and weaknesses if you know them? What is the thing that makes MVP succesful in sc2 but forgg not?
Mvp has been playing for a lot longer than forGG has.
Flash is not gonna appear and rape everyone after a month either. As Polt said, the s class players will dominate but it'll take them a few months, because the game is different.
Plus some people just are better at sc2, some are better at bw, some are good at both.
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On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history.
Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009):
Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury
8 different people (out of 11)
Let's look at winners of the GSL:
Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu
7 different people (out of 11)
Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
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On April 30 2012 23:46 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:02 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
It was a miracle that even two titles were given to one person at one point of GSLs history. Let's look at winners of major tournaments prior to the true rise of flash (2009): Nada, Jaedong, Firefist, Flash, Bisu, Savior, Calm, Jaedong, Flash, Jaedong, Luxury 8 different people (out of 11) Let's look at winners of the GSL: Fruitdealer, MC, Nestea, Mvp, MC, Mvp, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Jjakji, Dongraegu 7 different people (out of 11) Do you see much of a difference in random people being able to win?
Fruitdealer faded out of the scene very fast after his GSL victory. MC won two times GSL and kinda has faded away aswell even though he was considered the best protos in the planet. Nestea and MVP both dropped to code A at one point. Jjakji came out of nowhere and while more established players fell out. Dongraegu is still pretty relevant but considering the history or SC2 "established pros", its just matter of time when he fades out too and actually this is happening already.
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EPT
