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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
On March 26 2012 13:51 Aemilia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 13:45 oBlade wrote:On March 26 2012 13:34 Aemilia wrote:On March 26 2012 13:28 oBlade wrote:On March 26 2012 12:16 Aemilia wrote:On March 26 2012 11:17 oBlade wrote:On March 26 2012 11:04 KevinIX wrote:
Blizzard getting involved with esports can only be good. It's a conflict of interest for a company, who wants to release new titles and sell lots of copies, to be involved in esports, in which everyone wants a select group of very good titles that last a long time. It's like trying to build a community from the top down. This is just so incredibly wrong. Firstly Blizzard is not a company that makes a lot of games, they release a small number of titles and always stand by quality over quantity. This is both debatable and possibly irrelevant. It might be their goal, but that doesn't mean they always achieve it, nor does it mean when they create worse games that they wouldn't still play up esports to the extend it was profitable. For instance, look at all the forgotten titles that have been pushed through WCG. Secondly if people get extremely into one Blizzard because of ESports they game they will A) Buy the expansions, B) Tell their friends about the game and C) Buy/try other Blizzard games because they're super into one Blizzard game so they will of course try the other games. Yeah, people will buy an RTS and its 2 expansions and an MMO and its 4 expansions on monthly pay-to-play. It's not in dispute that if any of a company's titles is an esport, they will have more exposure. The point is that they can grow more by using the newer titles. For instance, compare SC2 sales that were a cause of BW's esportness to, say, all the sales in Blizzard games coming from SC2's esportness. Now do you really think the tendency of a company in this position would be to support the longevity of just one title in their franchise? Only so far as it's convenient - i.e., until the next sequel comes around. ESports is nothing but win for a company like Blizzard, or indeed any company but especially one like Blizzard. Yes, they are better with it than without it. But they're also better with their hand in it than without. But scenes themselves don't need benevolent dictators. I don't see the problem with Blizzard only supporting their products until a sequel comes along because Blizzard sequels are nearly a decade in the making. This might present a clash with Esports for Call of Duty or Battlefield, but it really doesn't for Blizzard. I was using "until" as an upper limit. SC2 expansions are paced every 2 years. I don't think it would be surprising if Blizzard's vested interest in the SC2 scene was noticeably declining from 2 years after Legacy of the Void. The way to create marginally profitable, but sustainable and professional (for the players' welfare), esports is to do so independent of a shepherd studio injecting money like it was heroin. I would like to think that after 6 years of Sc2 the scene and game would have all functions required and was well established enough to flourish without Blizzard, especially given we already do it right now. If we get a six year run out of Sc2 then that's pretty damn good really given only Brood War and Counter Strike have done better. It's the nature of the business that platforms change over time. I don't think anyone wants Blizzard to act like Riot, we just want LAN, replays with friends, clan names plus other stuff and them to assist the major tournaments where required in a non financial way. I wouldn't be too suprised if 2 years after Legacy of the Void Blizzard was ready to release Starcraft 3 (or Warcraft 4) and everyone will then move on to that.
Actually, War3 in China this year's slated for over 10 tournaments/leagues, and this is its 10th year since RoC came out. (Which, btw, RoC also still has a small, dedicated following amongst fans, which is pretty amazing, imo.) Not sure how China does it since it's running DotA, War3, SC2, and other games simultaneously, even with SC2 being pretty massively unpopular in China and losing out to DotA, War3, and LoL; I wonder if the Chinese scene's sponsors really are that much better off than Korea's. Though War3's certainly being cannibalized by DotA and SC2 more than BW is by SC2, they're still managing to get their tournaments off the ground with pretty good production value and good attendance, while BW is ... getting thrown out.
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On March 26 2012 13:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 10:52 Zariel wrote:
Lol at the people who say 'bw is dying'. Did you know that in korea, it's actually uncommon to find someone playing SC2? 90% of people in net Cafes still play bw.
SC2 is insignificant in korea. GOM fucked up big time for SC2 and they are too stubborn to co-exist with OGN. Clearly if you want something to grow, you need to open its doors to everyone. It's really sad that GOM is actually limiting the growth of SC2. Still, bw isn't that popular outside of Korea anymore. If we want esports to grow, we need to promote a game that can become popular with the rest of the world instead of focusing on a market which excludes all but one small country and a few online fans. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that, once the current bw legends switch to sc2, their national fans will follow suit.
Oh gawd i just threw up all over myself.
Edit: What a mess...
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On March 26 2012 11:01 hydrogg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 10:58 babylon wrote:On March 26 2012 10:52 Zariel wrote:
Lol at the people who say 'bw is dying'. Did you know that in korea, it's actually uncommon to find someone playing SC2? 90% of people in net Cafes still play bw. I think it's more likely that 90% of people in PCBangs are playing LoL, tbh ...  The highest ranked game is around 20% and is either a Korean FPS or Korean MMO. Last time I checked LOL was 4 and BW was 5. SC2 was 20. EDIT: Nvm LOL #1 now. http://www.gametrics.com/
bw - 5,25%
wc3 - 4,87%
okay.
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On March 26 2012 13:43 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 10:52 Zariel wrote:
Lol at the people who say 'bw is dying'. Did you know that in korea, it's actually uncommon to find someone playing SC2? 90% of people in net Cafes still play bw.
SC2 is insignificant in korea. GOM fucked up big time for SC2 and they are too stubborn to co-exist with OGN. Clearly if you want something to grow, you need to open its doors to everyone. It's really sad that GOM is actually limiting the growth of SC2. Still, bw isn't that popular outside of Korea anymore. If we want esports to grow, we need to promote a game that can become popular with the rest of the world instead of focusing on a market which excludes all but one small country and a few online fans. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that, once the current bw legends switch to sc2, their national fans will follow suit.
Many people would rather watch something they enjoy than promote 'esports.' This attitude has gotten out of hand. We watch Broodwar because the game is entertaining and we enjoy it, not because we believe in some utopian vision of Esports. We should not have to accept a game we enjoy less, just because it might have the potential to become more popular in the future. Sacrificing a part of Korean culture hoping to make SC2 popular is crazy. Popularity should come to a game because of its own merits.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like many people are desperate for validation. I wish they could just drop it and enjoy a game for what it is.
Sometimes I feel like the Starcraft 2 part of teamliquid has lost it with this whole growing esports business. Every week theres a new thread debating some pseudophilosophical issue that desperatley needs to be resolved to prepare SC2 for ascension. We see threads about things like the use of language, women in games, content warnings for streams (I cringed when teamliquid listened to that guy), and caster professionalism. Many have crazy ideas about the success of SC2 and its place in society. SC2 fans should just step back and realize they are talking about a game and not rewriting the constitution.
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On March 26 2012 14:38 LamaMitHut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 11:01 hydrogg wrote:On March 26 2012 10:58 babylon wrote:On March 26 2012 10:52 Zariel wrote:
Lol at the people who say 'bw is dying'. Did you know that in korea, it's actually uncommon to find someone playing SC2? 90% of people in net Cafes still play bw. I think it's more likely that 90% of people in PCBangs are playing LoL, tbh ... The highest ranked game is around 20% and is either a Korean FPS or Korean MMO. Last time I checked LOL was 4 and BW was 5. SC2 was 20. EDIT: Nvm LOL #1 now. http://www.gametrics.com/ bw - 5,25% wc3 - 4,87% okay.
The WC3 figures are almost entirely DOTA, not RTS WC3. BW is the top played RTS in pcbangs by far.
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On March 26 2012 14:38 LamaMitHut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 11:01 hydrogg wrote:On March 26 2012 10:58 babylon wrote:On March 26 2012 10:52 Zariel wrote:
Lol at the people who say 'bw is dying'. Did you know that in korea, it's actually uncommon to find someone playing SC2? 90% of people in net Cafes still play bw. I think it's more likely that 90% of people in PCBangs are playing LoL, tbh ... The highest ranked game is around 20% and is either a Korean FPS or Korean MMO. Last time I checked LOL was 4 and BW was 5. SC2 was 20. EDIT: Nvm LOL #1 now. http://www.gametrics.com/ bw - 5,25% wc3 - 4,87% okay.
I am not understanding your point. Writing percentage rate about two games and writing okay doesnt really explain anything 
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Blizzard says they want to promote Starcraft as an e-sport.. yet they expect some kind of "cut" when tournaments become lucrative. That is ridiculous... nobody "owns" football.. nobody "owns" soccer. Anyone can pick it up a ball go to a field and play and can set up their own tournaments without worrying about big brother looking over their shoulders. Sure certain companies "own" players, "own" teams, "own" leagues.. but nobody owns the sport itself. That's what Blizzard is trying to do.. nobody can pick up the game and play with their friends without having to cough up $60. Noone can make a significant profit off a tourney without letting Blizzard wet it's beak (in an unreasonable fashion as in the case of Kespa).. SCBW didn't die a slow death.. when Blizzard started to exercise it's IP muscle, in fact creating a whole new game which allowed them to do it more effectively, the whole house of cards came tumbling down.
A longstanding, legitimate, and singular "e-sport" is just a dream as long as this particular profit model continues to be adopted. You got to give it to LoL.. say what you want about the game itself.. but they had the right idea with the free to play model.
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Blizzard wants money, they don't care about esports unless it means money in their pockets. This isn't even a hateful comment, it's a simple fact that everyone needs to accept before martyring themselves over blizzards decision.
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Unless they're (Blizzard) going to do it right this time (not like they did it with BW), I'd be happy to see if SC2 can actually grow in Korea and attract BW's sponsors. Of course if it means BW is going to die, it makes me sad, but these changes would be a true test of SC2's popularity and strength as an esport. I don't have anything against LoL - I'm just curious how its gonna be this time with Blizzard and Korean companies and how they're going to convince average users to leave moba and get interested in SC2.
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That is ridiculous... nobody "owns" football.. nobody "owns" soccer.
You've identified a significant difference between competitive video games and traditional sports. Thing is, Blizzard's rights to control broadcast of their games rests on the elements of the games that traditional games don't have -- story elements, characters, music, sound effects, graphic artwork that are inseparable from the game.
Are these elements barriers to video games taking on the cultural significance of sports like soccer and American football? Possibly. However, Blizzard's intellectual property rights to their game can't be made to go away just by declaring them "ridiculous."
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gsl is forever my favourite show
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On March 26 2012 17:23 Lysenko wrote:You've identified a significant difference between competitive video games and traditional sports. Thing is, Blizzard's rights to control broadcast of their games rests on the elements of the games that traditional games don't have -- story elements, characters, music, sound effects, graphic artwork that are inseparable from the game. Are these elements barriers to video games taking on the cultural significance of sports like soccer and American football? Possibly. However, Blizzard's intellectual property rights to their game can't be made to go away just by declaring them "ridiculous."
On the issue of cultural significance Broodwar is of the same standing as traditional sports in Korea. No where have I seen parents bringing their children and house wife cheering over a player name flash in a game. The significance of a starcraft professional in South Korea is not to be whittle down and considered to be just another dumb profession . Players who are sponsored under this huge company like CJ stand's the chance of even working with their parent company increasing their future prospect beyond pro gaming .
If you ask me, will broodwar fit the description of something that holds the same magnitude that soccer,golf has been playing for generations ? It will in Korea and despite Blizzard claiming to have the copyright the only decided to get greedy when they see there is money to be made prior to this the scene was left untouched and untainted . But what do you know, I am Blizzard I want royalties my plans to make money out of the first gsl was a big failure so now I will try to claim I have copyright over the whole scene .
Really respectable moves from the guys who first supported Kespa in it's early day and nonetheless kespa has given free promotion for their beloved game and now they are trying to say kespa has been milking the scene free of charge ? . Show me a e-sport game where the same audience can be seen in a broodwar proleague finals and standard league where people are just there to enjoy the game even if they don't play the game .
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On March 26 2012 17:23 Lysenko wrote:You've identified a significant difference between competitive video games and traditional sports. Thing is, Blizzard's rights to control broadcast of their games rests on the elements of the games that traditional games don't have -- story elements, characters, music, sound effects, graphic artwork that are inseparable from the game. Are these elements barriers to video games taking on the cultural significance of sports like soccer and American football? Possibly. However, Blizzard's intellectual property rights to their game can't be made to go away just by declaring them "ridiculous."
Did you by chance follow the IP lawsuits? When Acti-Blizzard sued MBC and OGN, the Korean court asked them to define IP and how it was being infringed upon. Blizzard had no response and that was the end of that.
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If i would told one of you in 1990 that Conan the Barbarian will be once the master chief of California...who would believe me? We will see what will happen cause nobody knows what will happen so stay relaxed and just enjoy the future?
Sry I am not a friend of speculations if there is no real inside knowledge.
I just hope Kespa players will get more freedom in sc2.
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On March 26 2012 19:18 tadL wrote:
If i would told one of you in 1990 that Conan the Barbarian will be once the master chief of California...who would believe me? We will see what will happen cause nobody knows what will happen so stay relaxed and just enjoy the future?
Sry I am not a friend of speculations if there is no real inside knowledge.
I just hope Kespa players will get more freedom in sc2.
more freedom like in what?
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On March 26 2012 19:19 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 19:18 tadL wrote:
If i would told one of you in 1990 that Conan the Barbarian will be once the master chief of California...who would believe me? We will see what will happen cause nobody knows what will happen so stay relaxed and just enjoy the future?
Sry I am not a friend of speculations if there is no real inside knowledge.
I just hope Kespa players will get more freedom in sc2. more freedom like in what?
To abuse the game ! MHWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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On March 26 2012 17:47 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:23 Lysenko wrote:That is ridiculous... nobody "owns" football.. nobody "owns" soccer. You've identified a significant difference between competitive video games and traditional sports. Thing is, Blizzard's rights to control broadcast of their games rests on the elements of the games that traditional games don't have -- story elements, characters, music, sound effects, graphic artwork that are inseparable from the game. Are these elements barriers to video games taking on the cultural significance of sports like soccer and American football? Possibly. However, Blizzard's intellectual property rights to their game can't be made to go away just by declaring them "ridiculous." Did you by chance follow the IP lawsuits? When Acti-Blizzard sued MBC and OGN, the Korean court asked them to define IP and how it was being infringed upon. Blizzard had no response and that was the end of that.
Actually, it wasn't the end. Blizzard never abandoned their argument that they owned the intellectual property rights to the graphics and sound in the game. What happened to end the case was that they negotiated a settlement that resulted in Blizzard granting KESPA, OGN, and MBC a license to their intellectual property.
Regardless, intellectual property rights and legitimate exceptions to them vary from country to country. In Korea, the Blizzard Brood War case didn't yield any kind of precedential court ruling; instead it yielded a settlement. A case in any other country might go another way.
All that said, there's no question that Blizzard has strong IP rights in the graphics and sound for their games. The limits of those rights might vary from country to country, but the only way that gets resolved is through a lawsuit and either a court ruling or a settlement.
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On March 26 2012 19:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:47 ShadeR wrote:On March 26 2012 17:23 Lysenko wrote:That is ridiculous... nobody "owns" football.. nobody "owns" soccer. You've identified a significant difference between competitive video games and traditional sports. Thing is, Blizzard's rights to control broadcast of their games rests on the elements of the games that traditional games don't have -- story elements, characters, music, sound effects, graphic artwork that are inseparable from the game. Are these elements barriers to video games taking on the cultural significance of sports like soccer and American football? Possibly. However, Blizzard's intellectual property rights to their game can't be made to go away just by declaring them "ridiculous." Did you by chance follow the IP lawsuits? When Acti-Blizzard sued MBC and OGN, the Korean court asked them to define IP and how it was being infringed upon. Blizzard had no response and that was the end of that. Actually, it wasn't the end. Blizzard never abandoned their argument that they owned the intellectual property rights to the graphics and sound in the game. What happened to end the case was that they negotiated a settlement that resulted in Blizzard granting KESPA, OGN, and MBC a license to their intellectual property. Regardless, intellectual property rights and legitimate exceptions to them vary from country to country. In Korea, the Blizzard Brood War case didn't yield any kind of precedential court ruling; instead it yielded a settlement. A case in any other country might go another way. All that said, there's no question that Blizzard has strong IP rights in the graphics and sound for their games. The limits of those rights might vary from country to country, but the only way that gets resolved is through a lawsuit and either a court ruling or a settlement.
It was the end of the lawsuit. They had no case and dropped it and an out of court settlement was reached. As for "Blizzards IP rights is obvious and blah blah blah", this is the exact same stuff that came out of the Blizzard PR dept. in the months leading up the the lawsuit but in the end when asked in court to define their own definition of IP and prove infringements they didn't even try because they couldn't. And let's not get into all of their insane demands (audit kespa, players contracts).
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On March 26 2012 19:37 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:47 ShadeR wrote:On March 26 2012 17:23 Lysenko wrote:That is ridiculous... nobody "owns" football.. nobody "owns" soccer. You've identified a significant difference between competitive video games and traditional sports. Thing is, Blizzard's rights to control broadcast of their games rests on the elements of the games that traditional games don't have -- story elements, characters, music, sound effects, graphic artwork that are inseparable from the game. Are these elements barriers to video games taking on the cultural significance of sports like soccer and American football? Possibly. However, Blizzard's intellectual property rights to their game can't be made to go away just by declaring them "ridiculous." Did you by chance follow the IP lawsuits? When Acti-Blizzard sued MBC and OGN, the Korean court asked them to define IP and how it was being infringed upon. Blizzard had no response and that was the end of that. Actually, it wasn't the end. Blizzard never abandoned their argument that they owned the intellectual property rights to the graphics and sound in the game. What happened to end the case was that they negotiated a settlement that resulted in Blizzard granting KESPA, OGN, and MBC a license to their intellectual property. Regardless, intellectual property rights and legitimate exceptions to them vary from country to country. In Korea, the Blizzard Brood War case didn't yield any kind of precedential court ruling; instead it yielded a settlement. A case in any other country might go another way. All that said, there's no question that Blizzard has strong IP rights in the graphics and sound for their games. The limits of those rights might vary from country to country, but the only way that gets resolved is through a lawsuit and either a court ruling or a settlement.
Did you follow it to the end? Because Blizzard lost the the case. They were just trying to bully Kespa and they thought they can extort money out of them. Kespa fought back and Blizzard lost their heat and raised the white flag. lol
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On March 26 2012 20:02 ShadeR wrote:
They had no case and dropped it and an out of court settlement was reached.
That makes no sense. Dropping a case precludes settling it. A settlement is an agreement that resolves a case without taking it to trial (or taking a trial to completion.)
Anyway, courts in Korea, in the U.S., and probably elsewhere all favor settlement over taking cases to trial because of the cost to the public of having such a trial. When a case is settled, neither side "wins" or "loses" except in the sense that the settlement is more or less favorable to them.
That KESPA and OGN are still involving Blizzard in conversations about what to do with their games is a pretty strong sign that Blizzard's arguments about IP rights were probably pretty strong. Otherwise, why would they?
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EPT
