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Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 69

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 11:49:59
March 17 2012 11:48 GMT
#1361
On March 17 2012 18:29 Recognizable wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 18:26 dani` wrote:
On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
[ ... ]
extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect

I hear what you are saying Beasty. However, that last comment is mind boggling to me. Last time I checked you are a pro and if you truly believe you can perform better with the other races I see no reason for you to stick with Terran. This 'self respect' argument is quite a common one among Zerg / Terran players who feel their race is super hard and weak but you and all those other (in my opinion, sorry about this) whiny players should realize that there is nothing that strengthens your argument as much as switching to P/Z and perform significantly better than with Terran. Not only does it help justify your opinion, it makes you feel awesome as you can say 'told ya so!' and, of course, your career will be more successful. So again, I don't see why you wouldn't at least try it.


There is something special about Terran.
You have to micro and microing is the most fun part of this game

In your opinion.

the games and activities I enjoy most very rarely involve intricate micro, for example (not listing SC2 or SC:BW):

chess
go (a boardgame several thousand years old revolving entirely around territorial control, I recommend learning it)
the Legend of Zelda series (except The legend of zelda II: Links adventure, that game had a completely different feel, as a matter of fact, it was very micro dependent)
Rubiks Cube
Magic: The Gathering
Sudoku and similar puzzles
5-in a row
programming software
Othello

WC3 never really warmed up to me very much, but I very much enjoyed several of the tower defense games made by the community.

all of the listed have 1 thing in common: problem solving. (I also like reading alot, but there is no active problem solving there so I didn't include it in the list)
the deciding factor in the games is not how well you make your moves, it's what moves you make.

in my opinion:
anyone can learn to micro, anyone can learn to follow a buildorder.
all you need for that is effort, but...
in the end, the hardest skill to learn and master is problem solving, finding the correct answer to a situation you did not know existed until 10 seconds ago.

that is why I am proud to play zerg, because zerg is the race where reationary problem solving gives the greatest reward.
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
Solid_J
Profile Joined February 2012
Norway18 Posts
March 17 2012 12:02 GMT
#1362
I think Beastyqt sums it up pretty good.

Im a high diamond terran, and I dont think the game is particularly imbalanced. However, TvP is with out a doubt my worst MU. I like macro games, but since toss is superior late game, I tend to go for a 2 base all in.

To sum up the problems:
1) Feedback destroys the tier 3 units of terran such as Thors and BC
2) Mech is not reliable in TvP, due to Zealots and Immortals (Im really looking forward to try mech against toss in HoTS though)
3) Compared to other races, Terran are so microintensive in a battle. Stimming, stutterstepping, splitting and emp, while toss a clicks the deathball with collosus, and if they're good, microing their stalkers. I would ex. love to make more use of ravens in TvP, but it require even more APM (which I dont have), and they suck against feedback.
4) Zealots are incredible tankers compared to the price.
5) DT's are incredible late game harras units.

Atleast Blizzard blessed the bioball with the highest DPS.
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
March 17 2012 12:08 GMT
#1363
On March 17 2012 20:07 freetgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 19:59 carmon wrote:
On March 17 2012 19:48 freetgy wrote:
terran not beeing >50% winrate for the entire time up to release, still having the best results overall, and now Terran is somehow broken/underpowered?

If you're not going to take the time to read the thread why bother posting something that is completely off base?


who says i didn't read it all?
It always comes to the same argument, terran is "harder" to play.

Terran has good the superior dps units, therefore is by design forced to have to micro. else the game would be broken.
If people do not like this they need to change their race.

There is no point in arguing this fact. Differnet races have different strenghs and weaknesses and play fundamentally different. Thats why this game is so interesting.


Terran doesn't have the superior dps units, and is forced to micro by design.

Protoss and zerg have superior dps units, and the only reason terran is keeping up is that terrans units are microable, even if worse.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
March 17 2012 12:14 GMT
#1364
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
March 17 2012 12:42 GMT
#1365
On March 17 2012 21:14 Shikyo wrote:
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration


Absolutely no. After BF nerf they are no longer good vs zealots unless in huge numbers. And if you get a lot of them, they start melting to Collosi/Archons/Storms and Stalkers which are common to the usual death ball.
speknek
Profile Joined February 2012
758 Posts
March 17 2012 12:45 GMT
#1366
Usually not a big fan of beasty, but that was an excellent post, sir.
Zorgaz
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2951 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 12:52:52
March 17 2012 12:52 GMT
#1367
On March 17 2012 21:42 Huragius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:14 Shikyo wrote:
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration


Absolutely no. After BF nerf they are no longer good vs zealots unless in huge numbers. And if you get a lot of them, they start melting to Collosi/Archons/Storms and Stalkers which are common to the usual death ball.


Before BF nerf this actually worked to a extent, and before the snipe nerf i was making use of it aswell.

Now I'm puzzled what to do in my TvP. Atleast I know what to do in PvT xD
Furthermore, I think the Collosi should be removed! (Zorgaz -Terran/AbrA-Random/Zorg-Dota2) Guineapigs <3
Dalavita
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1113 Posts
March 17 2012 12:58 GMT
#1368
On March 17 2012 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:42 Huragius wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:14 Shikyo wrote:
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration


Absolutely no. After BF nerf they are no longer good vs zealots unless in huge numbers. And if you get a lot of them, they start melting to Collosi/Archons/Storms and Stalkers which are common to the usual death ball.


Before BF nerf this actually worked to a extent, and before the snipe nerf i was making use of it aswell.

Now I'm puzzled what to do in my TvP. Atleast I know what to do in PvT xD


Use reapers. They work wonders in the endgame and you already got all the infrastructure for it.

Also Blizzard already nerfed them so they might actually be safe.
SKYFISH_
Profile Joined April 2011
Bulgaria990 Posts
March 17 2012 12:58 GMT
#1369
hellions never worked against a competent Protoss, especially when the metagame was for P to get colossus ASAP

GL microing you hellions against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi
In Soviet Terranistan you rush the Zerg
Tralalo
Profile Joined February 2012
18 Posts
March 17 2012 13:13 GMT
#1370
On March 17 2012 21:58 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:42 Huragius wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:14 Shikyo wrote:
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration


Absolutely no. After BF nerf they are no longer good vs zealots unless in huge numbers. And if you get a lot of them, they start melting to Collosi/Archons/Storms and Stalkers which are common to the usual death ball.


Before BF nerf this actually worked to a extent, and before the snipe nerf i was making use of it aswell.

Now I'm puzzled what to do in my TvP. Atleast I know what to do in PvT xD


Use reapers. They work wonders in the endgame and you already got all the infrastructure for it.

Also Blizzard already nerfed them so they might actually be safe.


I heard they gonna get nerfed in Hots.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
March 17 2012 13:17 GMT
#1371
On March 17 2012 21:58 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:42 Huragius wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:14 Shikyo wrote:
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration


Absolutely no. After BF nerf they are no longer good vs zealots unless in huge numbers. And if you get a lot of them, they start melting to Collosi/Archons/Storms and Stalkers which are common to the usual death ball.


Before BF nerf this actually worked to a extent, and before the snipe nerf i was making use of it aswell.

Now I'm puzzled what to do in my TvP. Atleast I know what to do in PvT xD


Use reapers. They work wonders in the endgame and you already got all the infrastructure for it.

Also Blizzard already nerfed them so they might actually be safe.


Wait a second. Not sure if troll LOL
Huragius
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
March 17 2012 13:27 GMT
#1372
On March 17 2012 22:17 ChaosTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:58 Dalavita wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:42 Huragius wrote:
On March 17 2012 21:14 Shikyo wrote:
So I'm not a Terran player and haven't played SC2 in a long time, however wouldn't it help to add some hellions into your army against the Zealots? They're extremely versatile units too so it should be worth consideration


Absolutely no. After BF nerf they are no longer good vs zealots unless in huge numbers. And if you get a lot of them, they start melting to Collosi/Archons/Storms and Stalkers which are common to the usual death ball.


Before BF nerf this actually worked to a extent, and before the snipe nerf i was making use of it aswell.

Now I'm puzzled what to do in my TvP. Atleast I know what to do in PvT xD


Use reapers. They work wonders in the endgame and you already got all the infrastructure for it.

Also Blizzard already nerfed them so they might actually be safe.


Wait a second. Not sure if troll LOL


Troll I guess...
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
March 17 2012 13:38 GMT
#1373
On March 17 2012 21:58 SKYFISH_ wrote:
hellions never worked against a competent Protoss, especially when the metagame was for P to get colossus ASAP

GL microing you hellions against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi


GL microing your marines against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi

... logic?

Hellions were amazing against zealots before the bf nerf, killed them so fast it was just ridiculous
beep boop
Supah
Profile Joined August 2010
708 Posts
March 17 2012 13:44 GMT
#1374
On March 17 2012 21:58 SKYFISH_ wrote:
hellions never worked against a competent Protoss, especially when the metagame was for P to get colossus ASAP

GL microing you hellions against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi


Chargelot buff and Hellion nerf happened nearly the same time, didn't it? Either way, they were becoming ridiculously common before Blizzard nerfed their damage output. Stalkers (aka the only thing that can catch Hellions) take a rather large amount of shots for them to kill one.

I'm curious, do you guys see Terrans as a race that can sit back and play passively? As in, going Bio and playing passive? Mech needs to play defensively because of how slow it takes to get rolling, but what about Bio or Marine/Tank? Should every unit composition be playable any way the player wants?
Riskr
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany403 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 13:57:56
March 17 2012 13:52 GMT
#1375
no if you let the protoss go on 4-5 even 6 bases he is invincible.
3 base 25 warpgate is enough if you ask me
you cant snipe the zealots either,my only conclussion is=cheese them till hots comes out
Unless you have gosu micro of course,then a normal mmmvg might work.
But its boring as shit to only have one solid strategy @all.(not counting 1-1-1 or variation)
Ain´t no mind to the battles you´ve won!
SKYFISH_
Profile Joined April 2011
Bulgaria990 Posts
March 17 2012 14:05 GMT
#1376
On March 17 2012 22:38 7mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:58 SKYFISH_ wrote:
hellions never worked against a competent Protoss, especially when the metagame was for P to get colossus ASAP

GL microing you hellions against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi


GL microing your marines against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi

... logic?

Hellions were amazing against zealots before the bf nerf, killed them so fast it was just ridiculous


you only have to stutter step you marines back, while with hellions your goal is to get a good angle.

not to mention that with medivacs MM is harder to fry than hellions with no support, which is why no one is dumping minerals into hellions on ladder and in tournaments.

they are only good early game against slow zealots and only provided the P produced them in large numbers



In Soviet Terranistan you rush the Zerg
sushichef
Profile Joined February 2011
Scotland48 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 14:43:08
March 17 2012 14:35 GMT
#1377
On March 17 2012 22:44 Supah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:58 SKYFISH_ wrote:
hellions never worked against a competent Protoss, especially when the metagame was for P to get colossus ASAP

GL microing you hellions against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi


Chargelot buff and Hellion nerf happened nearly the same time, didn't it? Either way, they were becoming ridiculously common before Blizzard nerfed their damage output. Stalkers (aka the only thing that can catch Hellions) take a rather large amount of shots for them to kill one.

I'm curious, do you guys see Terrans as a race that can sit back and play passively? As in, going Bio and playing passive? Mech needs to play defensively because of how slow it takes to get rolling, but what about Bio or Marine/Tank? Should every unit composition be playable any way the player wants?


BF got nerfed after one MLG where Slayers terrans rolled through foreign zergs with hellion marine elevator builds. The amount of tears from zerg players was ridiculous and no one wanted to wait a bit and "figure it out" (simcity is the answer - BF rushes had been very common in TvT prior to that and that's how you stopped them).

There's a trend - any time terrans come up with a strong build the outcry from toss and zerg players is enough for something to be nerfed in the next patch (blueflame, thor energy bar, immortal range upgrade etc), whereas now that terrans are struggling with late game in general and not a specific build, there's a choir of zergs and protosses telling us to "figure it out".
Nibbler89
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
884 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 15:45:35
March 17 2012 14:38 GMT
#1378
On March 17 2012 18:26 dani` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 17:49 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
[ ... ]
extra: I will always play terran because I have self respect

I hear what you are saying Beasty. However, that last comment is mind boggling to me. Last time I checked you are a pro and if you truly believe you can perform better with the other races I see no reason for you to stick with Terran. This 'self respect' argument is quite a common one among Zerg / Terran players who feel their race is super hard and weak but you and all those other (in my opinion, sorry about this) whiny players should realize that there is nothing that strengthens your argument as much as switching to P/Z and perform significantly better than with Terran. Not only does it help justify your opinion, it makes you feel awesome as you can say 'told ya so!' and, of course, your career will be more successful. So again, I don't see why you wouldn't at least try it.


Big rant / vent:

+ Show Spoiler +
Like he said over 40% of his games are tvp, people are already switching to p / quitting T, doesn't Goody even race pick p vs p now? While sadly yes atm he probably should switch to protoss honestly if you can play T it's hard to switch to P because it's so boring, when you win as T it's a very satisfying feeling because you know you outplayed your opponent, when you win as P so often it just feels like you are winning because of your race, the micro opportunities are few and far between(assuming you've played a race other than P before) and your options are either do a 2 base all in or just turtle pretty much the whole game. (it's not like this is protoss fault, its just bad design)

I think some of the most depressing things about playing T especially if you are a foreigner competing at higher levels are:
a) There are many good korean Terrans
b) TvT is a very stable MU so as a foreign T player you will lose vs better(korean) terrans pretty much every time.
c) As T if you are worse than your opponent in TvZ or equal to your opponent in tvp, you will lose pretty much every time.
d)P and Z have the best chance of winning vs a superior opponent because their all in's are stronger and are much easier to execute then they are to hold(especially for PvX and ZvT),whereas almost every terran all in requires very good constant banshee micro to be successful.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317571
You can even see this reflected in the statistics where p and z have a 17+% chance to beat a superior opponent compared to a 10% for terran.

These are pretty much the exact reasons you really only see foreigner p / z winning tournaments where there are koreans. Even if you are a way worse P or Z player you still at least always have some chance of winning a BO3. If you are terran and worse you are pretty much screwed, you might as well offrace and pick P or Z and do some sort of all in. add on the fact that even in macro TvP a worse player can still win in a macro game too because of how the MU is. This is also why terran is a very frustrating race to play, you rarely ever beat anyone better than you but other than in tvt you will lose to people worse than you pretty frequently especially in TvP.

The misconception that TvP is balanced or equally difficult for protoss is the result of MC pretty much single handedly shaping the protoss metgame for the first year of protoss play. MC likes to be very aggressive and this includes in PvT even in his style today. The thing is attacking T is pretty much the only way you can lose a macro game in PvT. Genius pretty much never moves out even to the middle of the map, much less attacking, until 3-3 is done and he is setting up a bank + mass gateways and he wins every single PvT, 100% win rate when both sides get to 200/200 this season. The fact that MC does silly attacks that STILL WIN HIM THE GAME HALF THE TIME and then protoss still complain about the other half where the attack fails and he loses 10 minutes later, while genius never attacks and wins 100% of his PvT is truly mind boggling.

It's like if terran still kept doing the old 2 base 3 siege tank push vs zerg in the earlier days, eventually zerg figured it out and crushed it, so terran figured out new ways to put on pressure like blue flame, as well as exploring more macro heavy styles, so they start going faster 3rd cc and playing a more passive game,(a lot like pvt) the difference is, pretty much every terran starts playing this style, the metagame evolved quickly and terrans were able to adapt quickly to it. Whereas protoss players TODAY still do these retarded failed timings attacks when they don't have to but it still gets them a win half the time. It was so bad blizzard had to do a minor buff to forge upgrades just to get protoss in right direction ( adel scott beat IM MVP with double forge 3-3 chargelot archon in TSL3 pre buff)

Not to mention the fact that when a PRO LEVEL protoss uses a warp prism(another time blizzard has nudged protoss through balance changes even though whitera was using warp prism with success)to harass in late game pvt it's considered really special or rarely seen when even diamond level terrans use drops regularly. Obviously I'm not saying diamond terrans are better than pro protosses, just a note on how behind/slow/ dependent on blizzard buffing them the protoss metagame is.
The phoenix change also further emphasizes this notion that protoss need to be coddled, its a relatively useless buff sure but phoenix could already indefinitely kite muta, the reason they did the change was to make the micro easier, on a unit that already shoots while moving, to help them with an issue that was never imbalanced in the first place(muta).

Also hearing the "WELL LOOK AT THE CHAMPIONS!" is one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard / seen on such a frequent basis and I have no idea why it's accepted as an argument. At release the champions were z and p does that mean T was UP at release? no of course not. I really don't understand how they make that argument make sense in their head.If Genius wins last gsl it would mean P is good but since genius lost it means "nope P still weak they haven't won a champion in so long" because apparently 2nd place means shit. It's a cop out to not look at the actual game and facts about the metagame.

Honestly I wouldn't even care about all this if there wasn't this misconception that protoss is equally difficult and that it was recognized that yes, their metagame was slow to evolve and indeed terran is harder. Pretty much everyone that has played all the races past mid master agrees that Terran is the hardest race,with pvt being their "best" mu. The last time I played protoss I stopped when I beat TT1 on ladder because I thought it was completely retarded how fast I got to that MMR and was able to actually win ~_~. I felt no sense of pride or accomplishment at all for beating him, because I knew I wouldn't have been able to beat him as T or Z.
In BW I thought it was pretty widely considered that T is the harder race to play especially in tvp at non pro level and if you are less skilled you will do better with protoss than you would with terran. In SC2, the majority of protoss I meet actually think protoss is HARDER than T at all levels, despite it being the most popular race by far outside of korea(just look at this thread so many face palm moments of protoss suggesting hellions vs lategame chargelots or "drop more its so hard to deal with!"). If terrans just got the respect they deserve you would see a lot less whining and a lot more terrans come back to play. Being the least played, hardest, and most hated race while seeing "sad zealot" on front page every other day, is it any wonder why people don't want to play terran?

Sadly in HOTS it seems the solution is make terran easier instead of making protoss harder, protoss got no new units that will give them real additional needed battle micro just more harass options they don't use anyways and their defense gets even more forgiving with recall, and being able to turn buildings into cannons when they already have warp in. Terran are just made easier assuming battle hellions don't get owned by collosi and are actually viable vs chargelots.

Honestly I could go on... the fact that gateways are 150 min and can warp in anywhere a variety of units, whereas rax cost 150 mins + build time and can make 1 marine without add on, need more money and lost production time for the add ons. How easy it is to macro chargelot archon(all gas into archons, all mins into zealots!), the lack of gas dump for terran in lategame tvp... but those are seperate issues.
sushichef
Profile Joined February 2011
Scotland48 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 14:41:41
March 17 2012 14:40 GMT
#1379
On March 17 2012 22:38 7mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 21:58 SKYFISH_ wrote:
hellions never worked against a competent Protoss, especially when the metagame was for P to get colossus ASAP

GL microing you hellions against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi


GL microing your marines against chargelots while they are being blasted to pieces by the colossi

... logic?

Hellions were amazing against zealots before the bf nerf, killed them so fast it was just ridiculous


The logic is that hellions have to wrap around their targets to be effective which is hard to do vs chargelots and colossi will land volley after volley, and 3-3 colossi vs 0-0 hellions is no joke.

Now that blueflame is so much weaker zealots murder every ground unit terran has apart from marines with stim, shields and medics -- for which protoss has two units that can make 20 marines die in two seconds with far less micro than is required to keep marines alive.

Something will be done in 1.5; zealot HT archon has a ridiculously low skill ceiling in TvP.
Skyda
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom23 Posts
March 17 2012 14:45 GMT
#1380
On March 11 2012 11:19 LaLuSh wrote:
Statement based on a sample size of: 15

->

Probability of thread being closed: 1



Probability of rage when losing ZvP: IdrA
http://www.fm-esports.org
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