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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:10 IronManSC wrote: I've been facing a TON of terrans the past few days :O I think they are returning! Lord of the Rines: Return of the Terran Emperor sounds like a box office hit. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:10 IronManSC wrote: I've been facing a TON of terrans the past few days :O I think they are returning! Ladder lock T_T I'm sure most Terrans built up a healthy amount of bonus pool this season, people are probably just playing for the shitz and gigz since you can't get demoted. Out of 41 1v1 game this season (mid master) only 5 games against Terran | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 06 2012 03:17 Bagi wrote: While most terrans are annoyed about the amount of control terran requires, I really think terran is the best designed race in SC2 right now. Both protoss and zerg should require at least as much APM, and should have the micro options (and requirements) units like marines and tanks bring to the terran race. Not sure about that... As long as Mech/Sky transitioning is not viable in PvT, Terran lacks supplyefficient units in the lategame. On the other hand, Terrans bio units are just way more cost and supplyefficient than the other T1-T1.5 units in the game, which makes all those early-midgame allins possible that lead to the need for powerful splashunits on the other races. The only thing that makes Terran seem so complete, is how little you have to coinflip in the early game compared to the other races. But by not coinflipping Terran falls behind against the other races if they do coinflip (that's why Terran pros cut corners just as hard as other races) and f.e. don't get detection. Honestly, I think this is one of the biggest problems that Terrans struggle with on lower level. Zergs and even Protoss have to coinflip every game anyways (detection, air defense, how many canons/spines and where to put them, chrono/droning). When I play zerg, I often find it very easy to at least "feel" ahead, because I just crossed my fingers and hoped there would not be anything that requires an evo chamber and spores. Voila, now I have 500 minerals more in the midgame than I should have. With Terran it often feels very complicated to do the same and I find myself very often building an extra turret, just because it is so good "if he goes mutas", an extra barracks and then immidiatly adding the reactor and then realizing I can't produce steadily anyways when I want to squeeze in anoter CC and those upgrades and never cutting units, because of the "probes and pylons" mentality that people call good macro, but often is just bad decision making. I think this is also somewhat, what blizzard said was very complicated for low league Terran players. It's so easy not to lose early, that you often just find yourself unable to win later on. You have a lot of stuff to choose from early in a game as Terran, but the only way to compete with the other races in the longrun, is to limit yourself to as few options as your opponent has at that time. Just a thought on my own experiences with Terran from the last weeks. | ||
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mapleleafs791
United States225 Posts
On April 06 2012 02:24 SeventhPride wrote: Watch genius games on gsl. I think you can watch all his first games for free. He basically opens gate way first. Though he does go forge sometimes. He mixes them up but he has success with both of them. Im pretty sure he just goes gateway first on maps like crossfire where FFEing is difficult. I cant remember many games of him going gate first on a FFE map. Some specific games would be nice as i have a season 1 and 2 ticket and thats pretty much the only map i remember/would expect and i dont want to rewatch every one of his games lol. I gotta agree with the gateway expand builds sucking on the current map set assuming a player is familiar vs FFE and vs gateway openers. I am open to the opinion that it is good but i just need more proof than player doing it once in a while on maps that are bad for FFE and i dont want to rewatch every protoss game from season 1  | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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Cyclone999
Canada331 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Winrates for march heavily favored terran in TvP internationally, and even worse in Korea at the pro level. TvZ favored zerg both internationally and in Korea. Overall win rate internationally has Z > T > P, and in Korea it has T > Z > P So it's pretty hard to have an argument where P is OP vs. Terran, I'm surprised we see more complaints vs. P than vs. Z. That said, it's really hard to justify any sort of complaint that terran is too hard at low levels when you realize that people aren't playing well, and any sort of buff would make T even more powerful at the top level of play (which is indicated by the Korean results). | ||
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Bidj
France98 Posts
On April 06 2012 08:34 Whitewing wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326449 Winrates for march heavily favored terran in TvP internationally, and even worse in Korea at the pro level. TvZ favored zerg both internationally and in Korea. Overall win rate internationally has Z > T > P, and in Korea it has T > Z > P So it's pretty hard to have an argument where P is OP vs. Terran, I'm surprised we see more complaints vs. P than vs. Z. That said, it's really hard to justify any sort of complaint that terran is too hard at low levels when you realize that people aren't playing well, and any sort of buff would make T even more powerful at the top level of play (which is indicated by the Korean results). Nobody asked for a buff or said that TvP is P favored. Just harder at lower level. Analogy, if you have a game with two characters, both have one skill which do 1 damage and can only be cast every 5 seconds. But the 1st character has to click twice in order to the skill to go off, while the second one only have to click once. The game is balanced but 1st character is harder to play. And it's easy to change. That's the subject of this topic and a lot of people don't understand that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2012 08:59 Bidj wrote: Nobody asked for a buff or said that TvP is P favored. Just harder at lower level. Analogy, if you have a game with two characters, both have one skill which do 1 damage and can only be cast every 5 seconds. But the 1st character has to click twice in order to the skill to go off, while the second one only have to click once. The game is balanced but 1st character is harder to play. And it's easy to change. That's the subject of this topic and a lot of people don't understand that. The Game is Imbalanced for Me! argument strikes again. | ||
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Gako
Canada22 Posts
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:02 Plansix wrote: The Game is Imbalanced for Me! argument strikes again. No, that's not what that is. His example, while theoretical, is quite legitimate. Games shouldn't be designed like that, and it seems like Terran vs Protoss has a similar design to that, at least in the lategame. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On April 06 2012 08:34 Whitewing wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326449 Winrates for march heavily favored terran in TvP internationally, and even worse in Korea at the pro level. TvZ favored zerg both internationally and in Korea. Overall win rate internationally has Z > T > P, and in Korea it has T > Z > P So it's pretty hard to have an argument where P is OP vs. Terran, I'm surprised we see more complaints vs. P than vs. Z. That said, it's really hard to justify any sort of complaint that terran is too hard at low levels when you realize that people aren't playing well, and any sort of buff would make T even more powerful at the top level of play (which is indicated by the Korean results). there have been several arguments in this thread, and I dont think any of them have involved anyone saying P is just OP vs terran. you're either misunderstanding something, or you just haven't been reading. | ||
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Etrnity
United States88 Posts
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JoeCool
Germany2520 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:08 Gako wrote: As a Z in the early levels (Bronze to Plat) its nearly impossible to go two games without playing terran. I usually end up fighting against toss or terran, making my ZvZ matchup by far the worst. Are you sure? I just reached Plat, had 25 Matches and not ONE of them against Terran, not one! Everyone is playing protoss... I guess it´s time for me to take a break from SC2. 8/10 Games are ZvP, thats not funny anymore.... | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
If something caused a lot of Terrans to give up and switch or leave the game, those Terrans would disproportionately be the worst players, meaning the average skill of Terrans would shoot up. Then if they were still playing, they would be starting off anew as Zerg and Protoss players and playing like shit, pushing Terran winrates higher. It's really hard to quantify these effects though. But basically, the discussion should be about the actual gameplay, and what's causing people to stop playing Terran. Quite a few pages back, there was talk reaching something near a consensus that in TvP for example, Terran was too strong in the late-earlygame and midgame, and far too weak in the lategame. This means Terran players have to rely on risky aggression, which often works, but if it doesn't work then that game becomes incredibly frustrating in the lategame. There is a similar thing for Zerg, where their lategame is really, really good compared to Terran after a variously even or Terran favored early to early mid game. We need to talk about these things instead of balance. Only the most casual and stupid runners by of this thread failed to admit that Terran is favored until the lategame. Let's focus on evening out games so they are a little less one sided at all times. A long time ago back when stalker-colossus deathballs off 2 base were extremely popular and difficult to stop, Blizzard expressed a desire to prevent situations where one race sits and survives and has a hard time until an arbitrary point in the game where they become very difficult to stop. We want to change it so that it's anyone's game in a consistent macro scenario. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:48 neoghaleon55 wrote: You know I'm glad that Terrans are declining in numbers. If it's such a successful race, it shouldn't be an easy one to play or master. If it's both easy and successful...that's called broken. So kudos to all you Terrans who stuck with it. People who switched are just looking for an easy win, once many of their abusive crap's been figured out, they will have nothing to fall back on. There are a few of us to feel that way. But no one likes to hear "Well maybe you just aren't that good." Still every time I ask for help, all I hear is how much I could improve. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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EPT
I don't suppose there's any harm in trying out a new strategy. 
