Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 201

Where is your pride?

On April 06 2012 02:57 Superneenja wrote:


Hey atleast he doesn't play protoss...jk hahaha :D

But can we agree that Terran skill ceiling is higher, therefore protoss will be less skilled? Or are we saying both races take the same amount of skill, which obviously i don't agree with.

Hopefully me playing protoss from now on will change my mind?

On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote:
Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!

I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.

FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol!
whooo that was quite refreshing

C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!

Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is)

On April 06 2012 03:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


You realize his name backwards is TerranOp (Overpowered), right?

You're really getting mad at such an obvious troll?

On April 06 2012 02:57 Superneenja wrote:


Hey atleast he doesn't play protoss...jk hahaha :D

But can we agree that Terran skill ceiling is higher, therefore protoss will be less skilled? Or are we saying both races take the same amount of skill, which obviously i don't agree with.

Hopefully me playing protoss from now on will change my mind?

On April 06 2012 02:12 ZenithM wrote:

Wouldn't mind that. In fact, it might make me switch back to Protoss, which I was since the beta when suddenly I decided I didn't want to play the race considered the easiest anymore. Plus MKP's awesome, lawl, so I'm T now.

On April 06 2012 03:07 Plansix wrote:


I don't think anyone is going to agree to that. Different races have require different skills. I am intrested to see how you do as protoss if you take is objectively.

On April 06 2012 01:54 Plansix wrote:


It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears.

On April 06 2012 00:35 ArcticFox wrote:
At least when a T plays vs. a Z, we know that they're putting in as much effort macroing as we are into microing. It's a different mechanic, but both are damn difficult to do. Spreading creep, hitting injects, setting up flanks, keeping map vision, readying counterattacks -- there's a lot of effort that goes into a Zerg trying to beat a Terran, and there's just as much effort the Terran has to put in to keep the Zerg in check and running roughshod across the map.

There's nothing mechanically difficult about what a protoss has to do to win a PvT game (Note to prevent flames: good mechanics are important in general for all 3 races, but by design, there's no micro that a protoss can do that makes a Diamond league viewer think, "wow, there's no way I could pull that off." -- you can blame the Colossus for most of this. I also couldn't tell you the last game I saw where a protoss's nexii didn't all hit 100 energy at some point, plus with how forgiving the warp gate mechanic is, there's no way for a Protoss to wow you with macro either like a Zerg does.), and that's where the disparity starts coming in. At an "equal" skill level (which is theoretically anyone I meet on the ladder, which should have my MMR fairly spot on after 3000 or so 1s games), the amount of effort expended by a protoss to win is FAR less than what I'm expending to win. For a P to win vs a T, it's simply a matter of setting up enough FFs to survive the midgame, secure a 3rd, then 2 cannons and a templar in each base to prevent drops. Then put your zealots in the front of your army, build your AoE units, 1a, and randomly storm to keep the Bio army moving instead of firing. I've played 1s from both sides (I don't play Zerg b/c I'm terrible at it, much respect to all those Zergs who can keep all those macro mechanics flowing all game and not just die to early timings x.x), and once I've secured a 3rd as P, I feel like there's actually no way to lose vs. a T without a glaring error on my side.

The rest of the TvP complaints have been made throughout the thread, but one bears repeating -- the one-sided domino effect. When it gets past about the 15 minute mark, when the T army is broken by a P, with any number of units leftover, the zealot warp-in and 1a ends the game, or at the very least causes significant economic damage and makes the next push the game-ender. When the P army is broken by the T, you're lucky to get any damage done at all before the next zealot warp-in, or even a single templar stationed at the base storms your already damaged army and ends your push.

There's a reason that the current best Terrans in the world (read: Koreans) are all of the 1-base and 2-base timing specialists, and our macro heroes are all falling out of Code S. Terran early game and midgame play are extremely strong, and our late game play is very lacking. So the Terrans who want to win are focusing on hitting strong midgame timings that force massive reactions or just kill the opponent outright, and the Terrans who spent their time learning late-game focused macro styles are really struggling. The macro heroes are performing well in TvT, but not making much of a splash in the other 2 MUs.

Now, what's the fix to this? Remove the Colossus in HotS and make something they're being given useful (HotS units for Protoss, though they're very likely to change, at the reveal looked like utter shit -- except the Tempest of course, which is ANOTHER massive AoE no-micro unit....seriously blizzard, stop with the terrible, terrible damage already...), change how the warp gate mechanic works so that the choice between regular gateway and warp gate is a significant one (such as: make the gateway produce faster, but warp gate can do long-distance reinforcement on a longer CD) and rebalance the game around the idea that something that does a HUGE amount of damage should take at least some effort to maximize its effectiveness. I'm fine with Templar doing a ton of damage, because they take at least some effort to position and use correctly. Colossi are the #1 reason for Protoss being given the "herp derp 1a" stigma, which isn't really deserved, and is detrimental to the game as a whole. And yes, I'm totally for an early game nerf (marine DPS?) if it would get our late game to a usable state.

On April 06 2012 03:20 Snowbear wrote:
After seeing the korean winrates (http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQ.png) I realised that we might see another nerf. TvP is already so hard (macro terran), and it seems like it will get even harder in the future.

On April 06 2012 00:35 ArcticFox wrote:
At least when a T plays vs. a Z, we know that they're putting in as much effort macroing as we are into microing. It's a different mechanic, but both are damn difficult to do. Spreading creep, hitting injects, setting up flanks, keeping map vision, readying counterattacks -- there's a lot of effort that goes into a Zerg trying to beat a Terran, and there's just as much effort the Terran has to put in to keep the Zerg in check and running roughshod across the map.

There's nothing mechanically difficult about what a protoss has to do to win a PvT game (Note to prevent flames: good mechanics are important in general for all 3 races, but by design, there's no micro that a protoss can do that makes a Diamond league viewer think, "wow, there's no way I could pull that off." -- you can blame the Colossus for most of this. I also couldn't tell you the last game I saw where a protoss's nexii didn't all hit 100 energy at some point, plus with how forgiving the warp gate mechanic is, there's no way for a Protoss to wow you with macro either like a Zerg does.), and that's where the disparity starts coming in. At an "equal" skill level (which is theoretically anyone I meet on the ladder, which should have my MMR fairly spot on after 3000 or so 1s games), the amount of effort expended by a protoss to win is FAR less than what I'm expending to win. For a P to win vs a T, it's simply a matter of setting up enough FFs to survive the midgame, secure a 3rd, then 2 cannons and a templar in each base to prevent drops. Then put your zealots in the front of your army, build your AoE units, 1a, and randomly storm to keep the Bio army moving instead of firing. I've played 1s from both sides (I don't play Zerg b/c I'm terrible at it, much respect to all those Zergs who can keep all those macro mechanics flowing all game and not just die to early timings x.x), and once I've secured a 3rd as P, I feel like there's actually no way to lose vs. a T without a glaring error on my side.

The rest of the TvP complaints have been made throughout the thread, but one bears repeating -- the one-sided domino effect. When it gets past about the 15 minute mark, when the T army is broken by a P, with any number of units leftover, the zealot warp-in and 1a ends the game, or at the very least causes significant economic damage and makes the next push the game-ender. When the P army is broken by the T, you're lucky to get any damage done at all before the next zealot warp-in, or even a single templar stationed at the base storms your already damaged army and ends your push.

There's a reason that the current best Terrans in the world (read: Koreans) are all of the 1-base and 2-base timing specialists, and our macro heroes are all falling out of Code S. Terran early game and midgame play are extremely strong, and our late game play is very lacking. So the Terrans who want to win are focusing on hitting strong midgame timings that force massive reactions or just kill the opponent outright, and the Terrans who spent their time learning late-game focused macro styles are really struggling. The macro heroes are performing well in TvT, but not making much of a splash in the other 2 MUs.

Now, what's the fix to this? Remove the Colossus in HotS and make something they're being given useful (HotS units for Protoss, though they're very likely to change, at the reveal looked like utter shit -- except the Tempest of course, which is ANOTHER massive AoE no-micro unit....seriously blizzard, stop with the terrible, terrible damage already...), change how the warp gate mechanic works so that the choice between regular gateway and warp gate is a significant one (such as: make the gateway produce faster, but warp gate can do long-distance reinforcement on a longer CD) and rebalance the game around the idea that something that does a HUGE amount of damage should take at least some effort to maximize its effectiveness. I'm fine with Templar doing a ton of damage, because they take at least some effort to position and use correctly. Colossi are the #1 reason for Protoss being given the "herp derp 1a" stigma, which isn't really deserved, and is detrimental to the game as a whole. And yes, I'm totally for an early game nerf (marine DPS?) if it would get our late game to a usable state.

On April 06 2012 03:20 Snowbear wrote:
After seeing the korean winrates (http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQ.png) I realised that we might see another nerf. TvP is already so hard (macro terran), and it seems like it will get even harder in the future.

On April 06 2012 03:25 Gimix wrote:


More people need to read this.

The only reason T winrates are higher is because every PvT is practically guaranteed to have a midgame while it is not guaranteed that every game will have an endgame. Simply put, TvP sucks for anyone who doesn't want to do a massive <20 minute timing.

On April 05 2012 22:59 MetalSlug wrote:


So basicly what you trying to say is that while Terran is not allowed to make any mistakes its totaly normal that protoss come back from anything and mob the floor ?
Because you are analysing this replay by pro/semi-pro standarts...

On April 06 2012 03:17 Noocta wrote:


Haha

Yeah. I might rage a little but we all know that the real Terran players don't really care, and just play along.
You might lose more TvP than before ( hell, I just lost one because i missed ONE templar ) but whatever, gonna improve that ghost control. :D