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On April 06 2012 01:37 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qrhyKm.png) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQm.png) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless  Anyone else kinda chuckling on the inside considering that in BW the myth was that T>Z>P>T but in that graph is directly showed T<Z<P<T? hahaha Just a little something to note :p
That is pretty interesting, although ZvP oscillates (and I'm pretty sure historically Z>P more frequently than P>Z, especially because of the mutaling metagame).
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Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!"
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On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless
The problem with those stats is that they don't give an idea of when a race is overpowered as in early, mid or late game. Even if terran is strong vs protoss in the early and early mid game its usefulness declines exponentially over time. This is bad game design.
I order to make the game much more balanced - and protoss is the race that's bringing in imbalances all the time (despite the stupid snipe nerf) - you'd have to make gateway units stronger and therefore nerf colossi, archons and HTs so you can take away from the deathball. But buffing gateway units leads to overpoweredness early on that can only be handled by removing warpgate tech, which blizzard probably won't ever do.
Reason why I highly doubt this game will ever have consistent balance or even imbalance.
@SeventPride: plus it's you reading the stats wrong. Terran is blue and has less than 50% win ratio against Zerg.
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On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote:
Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!"
Its always been mostly about TvP though
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On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up  The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn.
A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894
I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills.
Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief.
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On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote:
Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though
:/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.)
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On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote:
Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.)
Idk I am a firm believer that courage trumps balance.
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On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief.
The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage
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On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote:
Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.)
I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else.
Like some kind of catalyst you know.
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On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote:
Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know.
It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones.
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On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless Take a look at the tvz graphs... Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again? I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance. Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not.
The Game is Imbalanced for Me argument. It is a great argument, because it is almost impossible to argue against because it says "I cannot win at my current skill level because of the requirements of my race. The skills I used to get to this level are no longer sufficent to win. Other people can win, but they are more skilled than me." The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve.
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I don't think the arguments most of us are making can be easily made into a statistic. Even if we do the whole T and P switch races and play 100 games blah blah blah, people will find something to nullify the argument.
But just for giggles I have another account that I randomed with season 3 or 4, so now I will dedicate that to my protoss account, it was mid diamond before and I have to play a placement match. To make this experiment somewhat valid what steps should i take, stay in diamond or tank and start from bronze? and any other suggestions.(I'm thinking stay in Diamond/Plat)
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On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage
It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord).
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On April 06 2012 01:52 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote:
Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know. It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones.
It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears.
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On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless Take a look at the tvz graphs... Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again? I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance. Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not. The Game is Imbalanced for Me argument. It is a great argument, because it is almost impossible to argue against because it says "I cannot win at my current skill level because of the requirements of my race. The skills I used to get to this level are no longer sufficent to win. Other people can win, but they are more skilled than me." The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve.
Kinda like how a kid goes from a kiddy pool to a 1.8m pool. "this pool is too deep! Make it around my height" kind of argument eh.
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On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless Take a look at the tvz graphs... Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again? I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance.
Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not.
Actually if you look back through the thread there have been quite a few posts saying the likes of 'even Korean terrans are whining about this match up' or 'even Korean terrans aren't doing well' as supposed evidence for imbalance. It's good to have some statistics to prove that these sort of comments are BS.
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On April 06 2012 01:53 Superneenja wrote:
I don't think the arguments most of us are making can be easily made into a statistic. Even if we do the whole T and P switch races and play 100 games blah blah blah, people will find something to nullify the argument.
But just for giggles I have another account that I randomed with season 3 or 4, so now I will dedicate that to my protoss account, it was mid diamond before and I have to play a placement match. To make this experiment somewhat valid what steps should i take, stay in diamond or tank and start from bronze? and any other suggestions.(I'm thinking stay in Diamond/Plat)
Play both Terran and Protoss in the same league (because obviously Protoss will be easier to use at a lower league) and after you play a lot of matches with both races, post your win percentages
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On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote:
The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve.
the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more.
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On April 06 2012 01:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:50 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:15 Superneenja wrote:Actually this thread was started to see where all the terrans have gone, because people have seen a fairly dramatic decrease in the terran population on ladder. And I think an idea came about that the terrans were becoming frustrated at the MUs and were either quitting or switching races. I myself quit around end of season 3 after reaching top 5 diamond, and have recently picked up playing again. I think what we all really want is that everyone is on a equal footing meaning you have to do as much as I have to do to keep things even, but this is just not the case and I doubt it will ever be. It's saddening...but ya right now I want to get back in form and shut some protoss up The whole having to play with skills of a higher league to beat a certain race in the same league as you is the frustrating part. Think of it this way lets say 2 people were going to perfect T and P play, who has more things to perfect? And out of those things each has to perfect which of things is harder to learn. A lot of us understand having a fustrating match up, but the issues people have in this thread are nothing new to SC2. PvZ has similar issues. Stephano developed a style of play where he maxes on roaches in 12 minutes and SMASHES a protoss third base, which is followed by a loss. Maxes on a single unit that is slightly upgraded to roll over a protoss attempting to expand. Currently there are a lot of people talking about how to stop it. So many, it has created a 52 page thread as shown below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894I am not going to say that a zerg that can pull off maxing in 12 minutes is not talented, because that is a feat. But stopping 140 supply of roaches(the zerg gets 60 drones) at the 12 minute mark for a protoss is ROUGH. I could say it is harder than controlling the 200 roach blob, or a least is seems that way. . But I am not telling all zergs they are scrubs or saying that protoss is so much harder than zerg. That is just not true and I am not going gripe about how we are not on equal footing. I watch this thread to see if a solution is found, because I cannot beat that build with my current skills. Protoss have provided pointers to those who posted replays. Those pointers and tips have been responded to with more griping, balance whining and grief. The funny thing is, players can actually prevent the stephano build by not going forge/nexus first. But of course, they will then state zergs have it easier if they do that. Kinda retarded how they just want a build that automatically give them an advantage It's pretty much established that FFE is the current best opening in PvZ >.> Going gateway first really isn't popular and you have to have some really ridiculous trick up your sleeve. After your FFE, you can get your econ and upgrades going and try a whole bunch of different harrassment options. If you go gateway first in hopes that you can shut down a mass roach opening, the Zerg doesn't even have to go mass roaches (they obviously have map control for the first 5 minutes of the game with their first few lings, so they have the watchtowers and know when your expansion is going down... plus they can scout your base with an overlord).
What you just state just proved my point, everyone thinks its the best opening yet they whine that zerg can get 3 bases easily. if you want to prevent zerg from getting 3 bases, go gate way first and pressure. Learn from the terrans, they pressure us and prevent us from getting our 3rd up quickly. And by forcing lings you can actually decrease our economy. And again, learn from the terrans, they have long learned that pressuring a zerg to make even 8 lings is enough to damage our economy. And btw, doing 5 zealot push would actually force more then 20 lings. Which is equivalent to more then 10 drones
Edit: and before you argue that protoss is sacrificing 500 minerals, at least know, that you can still make probes from your nexus, while WE are spending larvae on zerglings. And we won't have enough for more drones.
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On April 06 2012 01:56 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out): International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran) Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran) Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless Take a look at the tvz graphs... Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again? I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance.
Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not. Actually if you look back through the thread there have been quite a few posts saying the likes of 'even Korean terrans are whining about this match up' or 'even Korean terrans aren't doing well' as supposed evidence for imbalance. It's good to have some statistics to prove that these sort of comments are BS.
Agreed. Every month the statistics get posted in a brand new thread. And nearly every month most people remark about how well Terran is still doing at the highest levels (except for maybe the occasional month a big Terran nerf comes into play, but by the following month, that patch seems to be solved and Terrans are still owning in TvP and TvZ)... and also there's the remark about how PvZ switches back and forth (irrelevant to this thread)... and that's pretty much it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qrhyK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQ.png)
