Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 198

On April 06 2012 00:35 ArcticFox wrote:

At least when a T plays vs. a Z, we know that they're putting in as much effort macroing as we are into microing. It's a different mechanic, but both are damn difficult to do. Spreading creep, hitting injects, setting up flanks, keeping map vision, readying counterattacks -- there's a lot of effort that goes into a Zerg trying to beat a Terran, and there's just as much effort the Terran has to put in to keep the Zerg in check and running roughshod across the map.

There's nothing mechanically difficult about what a protoss has to do to win a PvT game (Note to prevent flames: good mechanics are important in general for all 3 races, but by design, there's no micro that a protoss can do that makes a Diamond league viewer think, "wow, there's no way I could pull that off." -- you can blame the Colossus for most of this. I also couldn't tell you the last game I saw where a protoss's nexii didn't all hit 100 energy at some point, plus with how forgiving the warp gate mechanic is, there's no way for a Protoss to wow you with macro either like a Zerg does.), and that's where the disparity starts coming in. At an "equal" skill level (which is theoretically anyone I meet on the ladder, which should have my MMR fairly spot on after 3000 or so 1s games), the amount of effort expended by a protoss to win is FAR less than what I'm expending to win. For a P to win vs a T, it's simply a matter of setting up enough FFs to survive the midgame, secure a 3rd, then 2 cannons and a templar in each base to prevent drops. Then put your zealots in the front of your army, build your AoE units, 1a, and randomly storm to keep the Bio army moving instead of firing. I've played 1s from both sides (I don't play Zerg b/c I'm terrible at it, much respect to all those Zergs who can keep all those macro mechanics flowing all game and not just die to early timings x.x), and once I've secured a 3rd as P, I feel like there's actually no way to lose vs. a T without a glaring error on my side.

The rest of the TvP complaints have been made throughout the thread, but one bears repeating -- the one-sided domino effect. When it gets past about the 15 minute mark, when the T army is broken by a P, with any number of units leftover, the zealot warp-in and 1a ends the game, or at the very least causes significant economic damage and makes the next push the game-ender. When the P army is broken by the T, you're lucky to get any damage done at all before the next zealot warp-in, or even a single templar stationed at the base storms your already damaged army and ends your push.

There's a reason that the current best Terrans in the world (read: Koreans) are all of the 1-base and 2-base timing specialists, and our macro heroes are all falling out of Code S. Terran early game and midgame play are extremely strong, and our late game play is very lacking. So the Terrans who want to win are focusing on hitting strong midgame timings that force massive reactions or just kill the opponent outright, and the Terrans who spent their time learning late-game focused macro styles are really struggling. The macro heroes are performing well in TvT, but not making much of a splash in the other 2 MUs.

Now, what's the fix to this? Remove the Colossus in HotS and make something they're being given useful (HotS units for Protoss, though they're very likely to change, at the reveal looked like utter shit -- except the Tempest of course, which is ANOTHER massive AoE no-micro unit....seriously blizzard, stop with the terrible, terrible damage already...), change how the warp gate mechanic works so that the choice between regular gateway and warp gate is a significant one (such as: make the gateway produce faster, but warp gate can do long-distance reinforcement on a longer CD) and rebalance the game around the idea that something that does a HUGE amount of damage should take at least some effort to maximize its effectiveness. I'm fine with Templar doing a ton of damage, because they take at least some effort to position and use correctly. Colossi are the #1 reason for Protoss being given the "herp derp 1a" stigma, which isn't really deserved, and is detrimental to the game as a whole. And yes, I'm totally for an early game nerf (marine DPS?) if it would get our late game to a usable state.

On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:
Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out):

International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran)


Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran)


Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless

On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:
Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out):

International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran)


Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran)


Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless

On April 06 2012 01:17 OmegaKnetus wrote:



Take a look at the tvz graphs...

On April 06 2012 01:18 SeventhPride wrote:

Look at koreans t v z. The place where "good" terrans are. Now whine again?

On April 06 2012 01:22 OmegaKnetus wrote:


Zerg is hugely favoured on that one aswell

On April 06 2012 01:10 Sphen5117 wrote:


Ignorant posts like yours are the reason I have to struggle each time I bring myself to engage in an internet conversation. You speak of having 2 cannons and an HT at every base while having this huge army that doesn't need to be controlled, without talking about the cost of all it , or the fact that if either side of a TvP controls their army when the other doesn't, they ROFLSTOMP. You speak of the Tempest like it's a good thing, and you claim Terran late game is lacking when basic control will nullify chargelots and HT's alltogether, and your counter to colossi auto-target them on their own.

On April 06 2012 01:22 OmegaKnetus wrote:


Zerg is hugely favoured on that one aswell
And i'm not talking about the rates, but rather about how the snipe nerf seems to have a giant impact on tvz

On April 06 2012 01:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


I don't think anyone here is disputing that Terrans have been doing the best at the highest levels of play for nearly the entire history of the game. In both TvZ and TvP. The Terrans here have been very careful to dodge those claims and ignore the highest levels of play, and instead only focus on lower league performance.

Interpret that however you want. It may be relevant or it may not.

On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:
Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out):

International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran)


Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran)


Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless

On April 06 2012 01:14 Sphen5117 wrote:


Careful brining facts in here. This is the internet. We don't take kindly to truth, only ignorance and covering our ears while screaming our own arguments are accepted.

On April 06 2012 01:03 dani` wrote:
Even though this is mainly low level Terrans crying, I just want to share some actual statistics (TLPD winrates March, just out):

International + Korea (TvP: 54.9% in favor of Terran)


Korea Only (TvP: 61.2% in favor of Terran)


Now I realize these 54.9% and 61.2% numbers are going to be dismissed incredibly quickly with the usual argument 'Korean Terrans just have sick control', but I wanted to put the stats out here nevertheless