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On April 05 2012 22:45 Shiori wrote:http://imgur.com/a/XmBDVApparently Terrans are busy wining games against Protoss. No worries people, I've found them.
So in Korea Terran are 61.2>38.8% over Protoss for March and 54.9>45.1% over Protoss internationally at tournament level and you guys want a bunch of buffs for Terran so you can go up a few ranks on ladder? LOL, if Blizzard were to listen to the whiners in this thread when Terrans at the highest level are stomping protoss, it would be the biggest joke ever. And don't try and pretend the buffs you want wouldn't affect pro level play as well.
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On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho.
I think most lower level (even low masters) terrans find this the most problematic, because protoss does not need to do either of these things.
Being constantly active and effective with your units while keeping up with your macro is one of the hardest things in this game. Yet its basically a requirement for any terran player once their opponent has decent enough macro.
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On April 05 2012 22:57 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 21:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote:This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl) http://replayfu.com/download/NgRR5fYea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss? Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax? Wow. Just... wow. Did you even bother to watch your own replay? (First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.) But your replay: @10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it. @14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss. @17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too. And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP. Here's the thing that bothers me about when people demand replays and analyze them like this: I know what I need to do. I know where I've gone wrong. I know that I need to control my army better. But knowing those things is a lot different than doing those things; it is really, really hard to properly control a terran bio army and keep macroing behind it. I've known what to do for a year know, and after a year with much trying I am not much better at controlling vs protoss as I was when I started . It is a lot easier to control the protoss blob, and that is where the problem is.
Please note that my criticisms of his performance are not exactly things like "omg you didn't have MKP-level micro? you're terrible!" and "your resources weren't always at 0/0? noob!"
These are what the biggest ones were:
1. He threw away units into a choke point without scouting (or I think he did scout with a factory first, and saw sentries with energy, which makes his decision even worse).
2. He occasionally dropped units into his opponent's base, but didn't actually harrass or deal significant damage with them. Then he just picked up and flew off.
3. During his final engagement, his ghosts and medivacs weren't used at all. His medivacs were somewhere else on the map, and his two ghosts were just using their regular attack (as opposed to EMP). And against chargelot archon, that's not gonna cut it.
Those are key mistakes. And also, those are things I think a player of his caliber can certainly fix. You don't need 100 more APM to do those things better, and I think that's important and constructive feedback.
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On April 05 2012 22:59 MetalSlug wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:59 xTrim wrote:http://drop.sc/143521how about this one then? win every single engagement and not being able to do absolutely nothing after them Then lose ONE engagement and lose the game :D masters level as well I noticed four engagements: @16:30- You sacrificed vikings for colossi (fair enough), but you never did any harrassment at all. It's fine; you guys are both macroing and powering. This attack ends up being negligible, as you both just re-make your units. @20:00- You kill off his colossi with your vikings but oh my god your units are all sitting in his (somewhat poorly placed) storms x.x If you just moved your army back a few feet they would all be green instead of red. You just sat there and took it. You were so worried about taking out his colossi that you sacrificed most of your army's health, which allowed reinforcements to clean you up (you had no medivacs left). @26:00- You have a lot of ghosts and you EMP most of his army, but you still miss some HTs and he still hits some key storms, which equalizes the damage. The colossi/ HT/ ghost/ viking count are all pretty much reduced to zero, and so the game resets and stabilizes. @32:00- The final engagement, once you guys are all powered and maxed again. You run up and EMP all his high templars (well done) but apparently don't consider that now he's got a fuckton of colossi and archons (merged high templar) and you end up being backed into a wall/ don't micro effectively and you get rolled this time around. It also didn't help that a lot of your vikings got erased by archon splash damage before they could take out the mass colossi. You should have sniped colossi with your vikings (you can at least 2-shot them with that many vikings) since he had no more storms, and then after that harrassment just split your army so that your pile of bio doesnt get hit by multiple archons at the same time. And then you BM ::shrugs:: It really all came down to that last engagement. You tried engaging max archon, colossi, chargelot head on, and that shouldn't work, considering your unit composition of... bio and vikings (because the ghosts and HTs and medivacs were gone at that point) is so much cheaper and weaker. You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho. So basicly what you trying to say is that while Terran is not allowed to make any mistakes its totaly normal that protoss come back from anything and mob the floor ? Because you are analysing this replay by pro/semi-pro standarts...
If he can snipe high templar with ghosts (and he can- he does in the replay), then he can certainly hit colossi with vikings out on the field before an engagement starts. Allowing the area of effect waves of both mass colossi and mass archon to annihilate his ground army (leaving only a few vikings left and his trickle of reinforcements) is what lost him the game. A lot of the engagements that happened previously were sparked by the Terran player and then eventually reset due to banked money (on both sides) and a few minutes. They didn't even necessarily have to happen, and they weren't really game-changing.
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This thread is a complete and utter joke. People complaining about thier meaningless ladder experiences, when at the pro level terrans are smashing. Even foreigners are stepping up their tvp through practice and determination, rather than qq like everyone here. If you want blizzard to help you climb a couple of ladder ranks because you are bad, you are killing esports lol
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You cant go after win rates in tournaments when the top terrans are godlike.
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On April 05 2012 23:04 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho. I think most lower level (even low masters) terrans find this the most problematic, because protoss does not need to do either of these things. Being constantly active and effective with your units while keeping up with your macro is one of the hardest things in this game. Yet its basically a requirement for any terran player once their opponent has decent enough macro.
Ok so imagine how hard it is for protoss once terran plays right? Then do you want a "where did all the protoss players go" qq thread? Every time a new skill ceiling is reached it makes it that much harder for the other race. Ignorance is bliss tho
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On April 05 2012 23:00 tomatriedes wrote:So in Korea Terran are 61.2>38.8% over Protoss for March and 54.9>45.1% over Protoss internationally at tournament level and you guys want a bunch of buffs for Terran so you can go up a few ranks on ladder? LOL, if Blizzard were to listen to the whiners in this thread when Terrans at the highest level are stomping protoss, it would be the biggest joke ever. And don't try and pretend the buffs you want wouldn't affect pro level play as well.
Terran has historically been the most successful race in SC2, raping Protoss and Zerg at the highest levels (as the data shows). However, this thread is merely talking about how the middle and lower league Terrans may have some trouble keeping up with their Zerg and Protoss counterparts. Most of the discussion on this thread is at the platinum, diamond, or low-master level. Apparently, a lot of those Terrans are leaving for other leagues because there are harder mechanics required of them, and it's easier to play the other races at that level.
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On April 05 2012 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 22:57 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 21:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote:This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl) http://replayfu.com/download/NgRR5fYea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss? Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax? Wow. Just... wow. Did you even bother to watch your own replay? (First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.) But your replay: @10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it. @14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss. @17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too. And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP. Here's the thing that bothers me about when people demand replays and analyze them like this: I know what I need to do. I know where I've gone wrong. I know that I need to control my army better. But knowing those things is a lot different than doing those things; it is really, really hard to properly control a terran bio army and keep macroing behind it. I've known what to do for a year know, and after a year with much trying I am not much better at controlling vs protoss as I was when I started . It is a lot easier to control the protoss blob, and that is where the problem is. Please note that my criticisms of his performance are not exactly things like "omg you didn't have MKP-level micro? you're terrible!" and "your resources weren't always at 0/0? noob!" These are what the biggest ones were: 1. He threw away units into a choke point without scouting (or I think he did scout with a factory first, and saw sentries with energy, which makes his decision even worse). 2. He occasionally dropped units into his opponent's base, but didn't actually harrass or deal significant damage with them. Then he just picked up and flew off. 3. During his final engagement, his ghosts and medivacs weren't used at all. His medivacs were somewhere else on the map, and his two ghosts were just using their regular attack (as opposed to EMP). And against chargelot archon, that's not gonna cut it. Those are key mistakes. And also, those are things I think a player of his caliber can certainly fix. You don't need 100 more APM to do those things better, and I think that's important and constructive feedback.
The point of it isn't this analysis, or any analysis in particular. The point is I can know what I need to do and can still have room to fix it and it can still be unfair. Go back to the five rax reaper era. Zergs knew what they had to do to stop it, and they did, but that didn't stop blizzard from patching the game.
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On April 05 2012 23:04 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho. I think most lower level (even low masters) terrans find this the most problematic, because protoss does not need to do either of these things. Being constantly active and effective with your units while keeping up with your macro is one of the hardest things in this game. Yet its basically a requirement for any terran player once their opponent has decent enough macro.
The protoss can't do this harass thing because their harassment drops are much less effective. Medvac with any mix of marine/marauder is MUCH greater than a warp prism with any gateway tech. Not only in terms of dps when harassing workers, etc, but also in terms of fighting power. Bio just shreds Gateway tech in equal cost/supply.
But back on point, yes, harassing is very effective against toss. In general, no matter the race, players all the way up through diamond will simply fall apart to a basic 2-pronged attack. Drop 1 medvac in mineral line, wait five seconds, then press front. Or Press the front, wait five seconds, drop mineral line. Either of these situations will net you either a very powerful attack at the front, or tons of shit killed in the back, nine times out of ten. Also, as terran, don't neglect your vikings or your ghosts. Both sides of the PvT matchup revolve around trying to stay 1 step ahead in composition than your opponent. Use those scans of yours. If you see a Robo BAY, but no colossi yet, start making vikings in preparation.
As a protoss, after each engagement, I always gauge how many medvacs/vikings that my Terran opponent was able to keep alive. If I was able to pick of a large number, I feel safe making more colossi. If not, I move into templar/archons before the next engagement (if I can avoid fighting till then) Make sure you don't neglect upgrades as well, Terran BIO scales the hardest with upgrade of any army in the game. (not a whine, just an observation).
Also, I can't stress this enough, you should be stim-kiting. Sure you can win fights without doing it. But you will DEMOLISH everything that isn't a colossi if you do. Chargelots will get one hit then spend like ten seconds doing NO dmg. You'll eat all his zealots, and then you will get to see the massacre that is Marauders vs Stalkers.
No matter your league, just working on basic macro and army/control positioning are the best ways to improve rather than learning fancy tricks or sneaky attacks. This is especially true in PvT on both sides, in my opinion. It is a matchup that is very unforgiving for whichever player stops controlling their army properly. Both armies can do decently without being controlled, but both can be put into tons of situations if they're controlled properly. If you neglect to do so, and the other player does, you will simply lose everything. (no matter whether you're the terran or the toss)
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On April 05 2012 23:13 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 22:57 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 21:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote:This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl) http://replayfu.com/download/NgRR5fYea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss? Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax? Wow. Just... wow. Did you even bother to watch your own replay? (First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.) But your replay: @10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it. @14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss. @17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too. And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP. Here's the thing that bothers me about when people demand replays and analyze them like this: I know what I need to do. I know where I've gone wrong. I know that I need to control my army better. But knowing those things is a lot different than doing those things; it is really, really hard to properly control a terran bio army and keep macroing behind it. I've known what to do for a year know, and after a year with much trying I am not much better at controlling vs protoss as I was when I started . It is a lot easier to control the protoss blob, and that is where the problem is. Please note that my criticisms of his performance are not exactly things like "omg you didn't have MKP-level micro? you're terrible!" and "your resources weren't always at 0/0? noob!" These are what the biggest ones were: 1. He threw away units into a choke point without scouting (or I think he did scout with a factory first, and saw sentries with energy, which makes his decision even worse). 2. He occasionally dropped units into his opponent's base, but didn't actually harrass or deal significant damage with them. Then he just picked up and flew off. 3. During his final engagement, his ghosts and medivacs weren't used at all. His medivacs were somewhere else on the map, and his two ghosts were just using their regular attack (as opposed to EMP). And against chargelot archon, that's not gonna cut it. Those are key mistakes. And also, those are things I think a player of his caliber can certainly fix. You don't need 100 more APM to do those things better, and I think that's important and constructive feedback. The point of it isn't this analysis, or any analysis in particular. The point is I can know what I need to do and can still have room to fix it and it can still be unfair. Go back to the five rax reaper era. Zergs knew what they had to do to stop it, and they did, but that didn't stop blizzard from patching the game.
Honestly, I don't see the connection between an old broken strategy that required patching, and this guy just not keeping his important units together and suiciding half his army. They're on entirely different levels >.> I don't see this critique as unfair, because I think what I'm asking him to do is not something only pro players can do.
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On April 05 2012 23:10 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:04 Bagi wrote:On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho. I think most lower level (even low masters) terrans find this the most problematic, because protoss does not need to do either of these things. Being constantly active and effective with your units while keeping up with your macro is one of the hardest things in this game. Yet its basically a requirement for any terran player once their opponent has decent enough macro. Ok so imagine how hard it is for protoss once terran plays right? Then do you want a "where did all the protoss players go" qq thread? Every time a new skill ceiling is reached it makes it that much harder for the other race. Ignorance is bliss tho
As long as 99% of terrans cannot play completely "right", I don't see what that has to do with what I said.
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i dont know man... terran is definitely still favored even vs P. it's just that terran are used to winning unless they really screw up or didnt scout an all in. Finally P is figuring it out how to play PvT now don't tell me P is imbalanced...
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On April 05 2012 23:15 Sphen5117 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:04 Bagi wrote:On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho. I think most lower level (even low masters) terrans find this the most problematic, because protoss does not need to do either of these things. Being constantly active and effective with your units while keeping up with your macro is one of the hardest things in this game. Yet its basically a requirement for any terran player once their opponent has decent enough macro. The protoss can't do this harass thing because their harassment drops are much less effective. Medvac with any mix of marine/marauder is MUCH greater than a warp prism with any gateway tech. Not only in terms of dps when harassing workers, etc, but also in terms of fighting power. Bio just shreds Gateway tech in equal cost/supply. But back on point, yes, harassing is very effective against toss. In general, no matter the race, players all the way up through diamond will simply fall apart to a basic 2-pronged attack. Drop 1 medvac in mineral line, wait five seconds, then press front. Or Press the front, wait five seconds, drop mineral line. Either of these situations will net you either a very powerful attack at the front, or tons of shit killed in the back, nine times out of ten. Also, as terran, don't neglect your vikings or your ghosts. Both sides of the PvT matchup revolve around trying to stay 1 step ahead in composition than your opponent. Use those scans of yours. If you see a Robo BAY, but no colossi yet, start making vikings in preparation. As a protoss, after each engagement, I always gauge how many medvacs/vikings that my Terran opponent was able to keep alive. If I was able to pick of a large number, I feel safe making more colossi. If not, I move into templar/archons before the next engagement (if I can avoid fighting till then) Make sure you don't neglect upgrades as well, Terran BIO scales the hardest with upgrade of any army in the game. (not a whine, just an observation). Also, I can't stress this enough, you should be stim-kiting. Sure you can win fights without doing it. But you will DEMOLISH everything that isn't a colossi if you do. Chargelots will get one hit then spend like ten seconds doing NO dmg. You'll eat all his zealots, and then you will get to see the massacre that is Marauders vs Stalkers. No matter your league, just working on basic macro and army/control positioning are the best ways to improve rather than learning fancy tricks or sneaky attacks. This is especially true in PvT on both sides, in my opinion. It is a matchup that is very unforgiving for whichever player stops controlling their army properly. Both armies can do decently without being controlled, but both can be put into tons of situations if they're controlled properly. If you neglect to do so, and the other player does, you will simply lose everything. (no matter whether you're the terran or the toss)
this is a pretty large misconception, warp prism harass is one of the deadliest in the game. Most cost efficient as well, drop 2 zeals in a terrans mineral line when he moves out, (main with warp prism and nat with proxy pylon). And since you can keep warping in its basically a sustained harass. If you go for a heavy gateway style play, warping in mass zeals on terran production is brutal as well. Late game terran cannot devote any amount of units to drops unless its some sort of doom drop, because they have to have EVERY unit possible for the 200/200 fight. However this is not the case for protoss, because 2 zealots can be warped in anywhere and shut down exterior expansions before they even go up. It is very very hard for terran to defend when they are out of position, so well timed harass is deadly even if it is simply 2 or more zealots
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On April 05 2012 23:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:13 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 22:57 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 21:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote:This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl) http://replayfu.com/download/NgRR5fYea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss? Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax? Wow. Just... wow. Did you even bother to watch your own replay? (First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.) But your replay: @10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it. @14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss. @17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too. And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP. Here's the thing that bothers me about when people demand replays and analyze them like this: I know what I need to do. I know where I've gone wrong. I know that I need to control my army better. But knowing those things is a lot different than doing those things; it is really, really hard to properly control a terran bio army and keep macroing behind it. I've known what to do for a year know, and after a year with much trying I am not much better at controlling vs protoss as I was when I started . It is a lot easier to control the protoss blob, and that is where the problem is. Please note that my criticisms of his performance are not exactly things like "omg you didn't have MKP-level micro? you're terrible!" and "your resources weren't always at 0/0? noob!" These are what the biggest ones were: 1. He threw away units into a choke point without scouting (or I think he did scout with a factory first, and saw sentries with energy, which makes his decision even worse). 2. He occasionally dropped units into his opponent's base, but didn't actually harrass or deal significant damage with them. Then he just picked up and flew off. 3. During his final engagement, his ghosts and medivacs weren't used at all. His medivacs were somewhere else on the map, and his two ghosts were just using their regular attack (as opposed to EMP). And against chargelot archon, that's not gonna cut it. Those are key mistakes. And also, those are things I think a player of his caliber can certainly fix. You don't need 100 more APM to do those things better, and I think that's important and constructive feedback. The point of it isn't this analysis, or any analysis in particular. The point is I can know what I need to do and can still have room to fix it and it can still be unfair. Go back to the five rax reaper era. Zergs knew what they had to do to stop it, and they did, but that didn't stop blizzard from patching the game. Honestly, I don't see the connection between an old broken strategy that required patching, and this guy just not keeping his important units together and suiciding half his army. They're on entirely different levels >.> I don't see this critique as unfair, because I think what I'm asking him to do is not something only pro players can do.
It isn't that this critique is unfair. It is that the amount of effort required to get the same result is disproportionate between terran and protoss.
A typical analysis will say: well you need to do this here, this there and control better and then you could have won this game. That means that the game isn't unfair!!! See - you can stop it!
I'm saying that it is like back around release when you'd tell a zerg: you need to get either quick speed and a couple of spines or open roach. That means 5 rax reaper isn't unbalanced!!! See - you can stop it!
Just because you can identify room for improvement and places to get better doesn't mean that the game isn't fundamentally flawed.
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On April 05 2012 20:17 ntssauce wrote:
zerg is stronger atm , but harder to play then terran. if you can play zerg , you'll be winning against terrans of the same level as you.
Lol, it is not harder than Terran just by looking at pure mechanics of the race, I would argue that Zerg is the most forgiving race..but thats for another 200page thread 
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I think most Terrans here just play macro all the time, get into the lategame and die. Korean Terrans use a LOOOT of allins and a lot of pressure before 15 mins to kill the Protoss. I think people here need to get out of the mindset that doing risky/allinish builds is bad.
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On April 05 2012 23:22 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 23:13 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 23:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 22:57 Horseballs wrote:On April 05 2012 21:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote:This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl) http://replayfu.com/download/NgRR5fYea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss? Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax? Wow. Just... wow. Did you even bother to watch your own replay? (First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.) But your replay: @10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it. @14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss. @17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too. And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP. Here's the thing that bothers me about when people demand replays and analyze them like this: I know what I need to do. I know where I've gone wrong. I know that I need to control my army better. But knowing those things is a lot different than doing those things; it is really, really hard to properly control a terran bio army and keep macroing behind it. I've known what to do for a year know, and after a year with much trying I am not much better at controlling vs protoss as I was when I started . It is a lot easier to control the protoss blob, and that is where the problem is. Please note that my criticisms of his performance are not exactly things like "omg you didn't have MKP-level micro? you're terrible!" and "your resources weren't always at 0/0? noob!" These are what the biggest ones were: 1. He threw away units into a choke point without scouting (or I think he did scout with a factory first, and saw sentries with energy, which makes his decision even worse). 2. He occasionally dropped units into his opponent's base, but didn't actually harrass or deal significant damage with them. Then he just picked up and flew off. 3. During his final engagement, his ghosts and medivacs weren't used at all. His medivacs were somewhere else on the map, and his two ghosts were just using their regular attack (as opposed to EMP). And against chargelot archon, that's not gonna cut it. Those are key mistakes. And also, those are things I think a player of his caliber can certainly fix. You don't need 100 more APM to do those things better, and I think that's important and constructive feedback. The point of it isn't this analysis, or any analysis in particular. The point is I can know what I need to do and can still have room to fix it and it can still be unfair. Go back to the five rax reaper era. Zergs knew what they had to do to stop it, and they did, but that didn't stop blizzard from patching the game. Honestly, I don't see the connection between an old broken strategy that required patching, and this guy just not keeping his important units together and suiciding half his army. They're on entirely different levels >.> I don't see this critique as unfair, because I think what I'm asking him to do is not something only pro players can do. It isn't that this critique is unfair. It is that the amount of effort required to get the same result is disproportionate between terran and protoss. A typical analysis will say: well you need to do this here, this there and control better and then you could have won this game. That means that the game isn't unfair!!! See - you can stop it! I'm saying that it is like back around release when you'd tell a zerg: you need to get either quick speed and a couple of spines or open roach. That means 5 rax reaper isn't unbalanced!!! See - you can stop it! Just because you can identify room for improvement and places to get better doesn't mean that the game isn't fundamentally flawed.
basically what you are saying is if you switched to protoss you would be much higher on the ladder. You can test this for yourself and find out the hardships of the other side.
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On April 05 2012 21:20 VoO wrote:
And thats basically the main issue of this thread: Everything is pretty good with Terran if you are high skilled but below that you have issues and you can't fix them since you are never going to be Korean. Balancing is affected by this too. How do you balance a race which is incredibly strong on the highest levels but weak (in certain matchups and situations) on the lowest levels?
I basically agree with this - unless you're flat out amazing at the game, Terran isn't the best race for you to play, unless the sole reason that you play Terran is because you find it the most entertaining. If you want to reach your maximum potential as a foreign player, especially in the lower leagues, you probably should look to one of the other two races. This has been my personal experience, as whenever I switch races I have loads more success with them. And yet, I still play Terran, because something inside of me wants to be MVP and MKP, lol. I guess I'm just stubborn :p
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On April 05 2012 23:23 huehuehuehue wrote:
I think most Terrans here just play macro all the time, get into the lategame and die. Korean Terrans use a LOOOT of allins and a lot of pressure before 15 mins to kill the Protoss. I think people here need to get out of the mindset that doing risky/allinish builds is bad.
Don't be stupid. Risky / allin builds ARE bad. The whole concept of them will eventually phase out as players get better at the game, thus making your cheese play obsolete to the strong macro style that ultimately becomes dominant in strategy games.
The game is barely over it's first year of age... by the time the new expansion comes out this entire thread will be irrelevant.
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EPT
