On April 05 2012 18:39 dde wrote: ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot.
Zerg storng but at least with Zerg you usually lose to people around your level or better. Im mid master and wouldn't really be surprised if I lost a game to a plat Protoss to be honest.
Yeah, well let's continue spreading this little piece of info please. Last time it was "diamond Terrans have troubles with gold Protoss". Now mid-master Terrans lose to platinum Protoss. Couldn't agree more. At least the trend is consistent.
Next, Korean GM Terran loses to low diamond Protoss, I'm looking forward to it. In fact, several Korean Terrans have been matched against random Protoss no namers in the IPL4 Open Bracket Round 1, wouldn't be surprised if they were promptly 2-0'd and went back to Korea to train with their local diamond buddies Genius, Oz, PartinG and MC. Gotta work on that TvP.
Not going to happen. The issue is that Terran is hard to play in the league but once you have aquired the imba skillset (Code S niveau, which btw no foreigner ever had consistantly), you can still crush Protoss.
And thats basically the main issue of this thread: Everything is pretty good with Terran if you are high skilled but below that you have issues and you can't fix them since you are never going to be Korean. Balancing is affected by this too. How do you balance a race which is incredibly strong on the highest levels but weak (in certain matchups and situations) on the lowest levels?
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
Wow. Just... wow.
Did you even bother to watch your own replay?
(First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.)
But your replay:
@10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it.
@14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss.
@17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too.
And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP.
win every single engagement and not being able to do absolutely nothing after them
Then lose ONE engagement and lose the game :D masters level as well
You routinely overcommit, your army movements are fairly poor, and you don't manage to balance your unit composition particularly well. I also feel you're unneccesarily slow to expand after your fourth base (which you took at a nice time)l.
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
Wow. Just... wow.
Did you even bother to watch your own replay?
(First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.)
But your replay:
@10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it.
@14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss.
@17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too.
And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP.
I can't watch the replay at work, but did our Terran have the funds to keep up with the protoss upgrades but just did not do so? I see that a lot in my replays, where the terran just stops at 2-1, even though they alway have the funds to keep up.
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
Wow. Just... wow.
Did you even bother to watch your own replay?
(First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.)
But your replay:
@10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it.
@14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss.
@17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too.
And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP.
I can't watch the replay at work, but did our Terran have the funds to keep up with the protoss upgrades but just did not do so? I see that a lot in my replays, where the terran just stops at 2-1, even though they alway have the funds to keep up.
The angry Terran had double engineering bays, but wasn't even close to using them to their full potential. They were offline for a decent amount of time. The Protoss, on the other hand, was using his double forge for the entirety of the game.
To put it in perspective, when the game ended, the Protoss gateway units had 3-3-2 in upgrades, and the Terran bio units had only 3-1 in upgrades (with infantry armor level 2 not even halfway done yet). There's no excuse for Terran to be behind that much in upgrades.
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
Wow. Just... wow.
Did you even bother to watch your own replay?
(First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.)
But your replay:
@10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it.
@14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss.
@17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too.
And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP.
I can't watch the replay at work, but did our Terran have the funds to keep up with the protoss upgrades but just did not do so? I see that a lot in my replays, where the terran just stops at 2-1, even though they alway have the funds to keep up.
The angry Terran had double engineering bays, but wasn't even close to using them to their full potential. They were offline for a decent amount of time. The Protoss, on the other hand, was using his double forge for the entirety of the game.
To put it in perspective, when the game ended, the Protoss gateway units had 3-3-2 in upgrades, and the Terran bio units had only 3-1 in upgrades (with infantry armor level 2 not even halfway done yet). There's no excuse for Terran to be behind that much in upgrades.
Actually it's incredibly common for protoss to be up +1/+1 but not in this case. Don't make a general statement like that.
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
This thread reminds me of Carl Clover from BlazBlue Calamity Trigger. Playing as Carl was the most difficult thing I've ever had to endure in my life. He had the lowest health, was the only character that could be KO'd off a single combo/superthrow, had insane hitboxes that made things extra difficult...
yet at the highest level of play, Carl was broke as #$%#!
That infinite combo is insanely hard to do and hard to keep up...but it's still fundamentally broken. Setting it up properly required you to press like 19 commands in less than 3 seconds.
2A,2B,3C,2C[D22{D}],9,66,2C, 2C,[D8{D}D]8+Throw....just to start the combo. Each of those number represents a directional input for those of you who don't understand fighting game lingo. I don't like design choices like that.
I 1 rax fe and bunker up as usual scout him going blink stalkers and expoing aswell, immediatly start stim and produce marine marauder.
Fucking protoss chronos an obs and blinks into the highground sniping stim.
and he proceeds to kill like 30 marines 4 marauders with 16 blink stalkers.
there is NOTHING I could do against him without stim.
and I don't know how THE FUCK I need to protect my expo aswell as my tech labs. If I split my army he just crushes one half.
rant:
HOLY FUCK HELP MY FUCKING ASS THIS COMBINED WITH DTS 4 GATE 6 GATE VOID RAY ALL-IN DTS 2 BASE COLOSSUS UNKILLABLE CHARGELOTS MAKE MY LIFE ONE FUCKING NIGHTMARE
win every single engagement and not being able to do absolutely nothing after them
Then lose ONE engagement and lose the game :D masters level as well
I noticed four engagements:
@16:30- You sacrificed vikings for colossi (fair enough), but you never did any harrassment at all. It's fine; you guys are both macroing and powering. This attack ends up being negligible, as you both just re-make your units.
@20:00- You kill off his colossi with your vikings but oh my god your units are all sitting in his (somewhat poorly placed) storms x.x If you just moved your army back a few feet they would all be green instead of red. You just sat there and took it. You were so worried about taking out his colossi that you sacrificed most of your army's health, which allowed reinforcements to clean you up (you had no medivacs left).
@26:00- You have a lot of ghosts and you EMP most of his army, but you still miss some HTs and he still hits some key storms, which equalizes the damage. The colossi/ HT/ ghost/ viking count are all pretty much reduced to zero, and so the game resets and stabilizes.
@32:00- The final engagement, once you guys are all powered and maxed again. You run up and EMP all his high templars (well done) but apparently don't consider that now he's got a fuckton of colossi and archons (merged high templar) and you end up being backed into a wall/ don't micro effectively and you get rolled this time around. It also didn't help that a lot of your vikings got erased by archon splash damage before they could take out the mass colossi. You should have sniped colossi with your vikings (you can at least 2-shot them with that many vikings) since he had no more storms, and then after that harrassment just split your army so that your pile of bio doesnt get hit by multiple archons at the same time.
And then you BM ::shrugs:: It really all came down to that last engagement. You tried engaging max archon, colossi, chargelot head on, and that shouldn't work, considering your unit composition of... bio and vikings (because the ghosts and HTs and medivacs were gone at that point) is so much cheaper and weaker. You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho.
On April 05 2012 22:46 EpeenKingPrime wrote: okay need help:
I 1 rax fe and bunker up as usual scout him going blink stalkers and expoing aswell, immediatly start stim and produce marine marauder.
Fucking protoss chronos an obs and blinks into the highground sniping stim.
and he proceeds to kill like 30 marines 4 marauders with 16 blink stalkers.
there is NOTHING I could do against him without stim.
and I don't know how THE FUCK I need to protect my expo aswell as my tech labs. If I split my army he just crushes one half.
rant:
HOLY FUCK HELP MY FUCKING ASS THIS COMBINED WITH DTS 4 GATE 6 GATE VOID RAY ALL-IN DTS 2 BASE COLOSSUS UNKILLABLE CHARGELOTS MAKE MY LIFE ONE FUCKING NIGHTMARE
/RANT
p.s. lol........protoss.........
p.s. lol........... replay......... then maybe we can help......
I meant that I will let you decide for yourself if this is imbalanced or not, but in my opinion it is.
And yes like I've said I've made alot of mistakes but I've been harassing all game long while this guy is sitting on 2 base defending with units that need minimal micro.
People saying the drops were bad for me... not true at all, look at resources lost, they were pretty much even and on top of that I kill probes while I am producing workers.
In the actual battle I am 2-1 I think while he is 3-2 so I am behind 1-1 upgrades which is not that uncommon for terran. I certainly could be better upgraded but I had some gas issues.
Overall I played really bad and I aknowledge my mistakes but I don't think he played better. I can turtle on 2 base vs Protoss too, except I will never be able to win like that, even if the toss leaves me alone. If anyone thinks otherwise post me a replay.
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
Wow. Just... wow.
Did you even bother to watch your own replay?
(First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.)
But your replay:
@10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it.
@14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss.
@17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too.
And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP.
I can't watch the replay at work, but did our Terran have the funds to keep up with the protoss upgrades but just did not do so? I see that a lot in my replays, where the terran just stops at 2-1, even though they alway have the funds to keep up.
The angry Terran had double engineering bays, but wasn't even close to using them to their full potential. They were offline for a decent amount of time. The Protoss, on the other hand, was using his double forge for the entirety of the game.
To put it in perspective, when the game ended, the Protoss gateway units had 3-3-2 in upgrades, and the Terran bio units had only 3-1 in upgrades (with infantry armor level 2 not even halfway done yet). There's no excuse for Terran to be behind that much in upgrades.
Actually it's incredibly common for protoss to be up +1/+1 but not in this case. Don't make a general statement like that.
3+3+2 = 8 3+1 = 4
He was behind twice as far as he should have been.
I'm well aware that Terrans tend to fall behind on upgrades because Protoss players chrono boost their forges. However, because this particular player had a lot of downtime on his engineering bays (whereas the Protoss was pretty good at keeping on top of his upgrades), there is no excuse for Terran to be behind by that much. Especially when you rush for double engineering bay, and you don't get harrassed by Protoss (causing you to spend resources in other areas when you wanted to invest them in upgrades).
On April 05 2012 21:18 caretony wrote: This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades. I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
Wow. Just... wow.
Did you even bother to watch your own replay?
(First of all, gateways = 150 minerals and barracks = 150 minerals too and I hear reactors are pretty good.)
But your replay:
@10:50- You a-move half your army up his ramp, which gets forcefielded and killed off incredibly easy. Very dumb move on your part. You accomplished nothing but lost a lot of units. You tried being cute by simultaneously dropping in his main with a very small force, but you didn't even try to do any damage with it.
@14:20- You drop again with a slightly larger force, but you still don't focus down anything. It's like you drop units and then focus on your base and assume your bio will harrass the Protoss by themselves. You killed a few workers and Protoss defender units but again, minimal losses from the Protoss.
@17:00- The big engagement. Protoss pushes out to you now. You have 5 medivacs and 2 ghosts! And guess what? You don't use them for this battle. Your medivacs aren't even with your army, and your ghosts don't use any spells. This battle ends up being chargelot archon vs. the same supply of marine marauder. And let's not forget that the Protoss has 3-2, while you only have 1-2 too.
And then the best part of all is when you BM your opponent at the end and talk about how bad of a player he is, which is exactly why I'm taking this tone with you and not more of an optimistic one. Quite frankly, you acted like a jerk. And you certainly deserved to lose that game. The Protoss played decent defense. You harrassed incredibly poorly. And you couldn't keep your key units together during engagements. Your replay certainly doesn't show any imbalance in TvP.
Here's the thing that bothers me about when people demand replays and analyze them like this: I know what I need to do. I know where I've gone wrong. I know that I need to control my army better. But knowing those things is a lot different than doing those things; it is really, really hard to properly control a terran bio army and keep macroing behind it. I've known what to do for a year know, and after a year with much trying I am not much better at controlling vs protoss as I was when I started . It is a lot easier to control the protoss blob, and that is where the problem is.
win every single engagement and not being able to do absolutely nothing after them
Then lose ONE engagement and lose the game :D masters level as well
I noticed four engagements:
@16:30- You sacrificed vikings for colossi (fair enough), but you never did any harrassment at all. It's fine; you guys are both macroing and powering. This attack ends up being negligible, as you both just re-make your units.
@20:00- You kill off his colossi with your vikings but oh my god your units are all sitting in his (somewhat poorly placed) storms x.x If you just moved your army back a few feet they would all be green instead of red. You just sat there and took it. You were so worried about taking out his colossi that you sacrificed most of your army's health, which allowed reinforcements to clean you up (you had no medivacs left).
@26:00- You have a lot of ghosts and you EMP most of his army, but you still miss some HTs and he still hits some key storms, which equalizes the damage. The colossi/ HT/ ghost/ viking count are all pretty much reduced to zero, and so the game resets and stabilizes.
@32:00- The final engagement, once you guys are all powered and maxed again. You run up and EMP all his high templars (well done) but apparently don't consider that now he's got a fuckton of colossi and archons (merged high templar) and you end up being backed into a wall/ don't micro effectively and you get rolled this time around. It also didn't help that a lot of your vikings got erased by archon splash damage before they could take out the mass colossi. You should have sniped colossi with your vikings (you can at least 2-shot them with that many vikings) since he had no more storms, and then after that harrassment just split your army so that your pile of bio doesnt get hit by multiple archons at the same time.
And then you BM ::shrugs:: It really all came down to that last engagement. You tried engaging max archon, colossi, chargelot head on, and that shouldn't work, considering your unit composition of... bio and vikings (because the ghosts and HTs and medivacs were gone at that point) is so much cheaper and weaker. You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho.
So basicly what you trying to say is that while Terran is not allowed to make any mistakes its totaly normal that protoss come back from anything and mob the floor ? Because you are analysing this replay by pro/semi-pro standarts...
EPT
