|
ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot.
|
I stopped playing when protoss was a joke. It took so long to get better that eventually I restarted as zerg, I might switch to terran. they look like fun
|
I tend to get frustrated with TvZ and TvP to the point where I just quit the game and go off and spend several hours doing something productive.
Actually this doesn't seem so bad...
|
Let's not stop at bumping this post so we won't see any Terran in the ladder for a long time... maybe forever! Bunch of whiners
|
Finally switched to Zerg. I'm so glad that Terran is a dying race as TvZ is my worst MU.
|
I'm switching to zerg as well and already having more success with them
|
On April 05 2012 19:31 EleanorRIgby wrote:
I'm switching to zerg as well and already having more success with them
On April 05 2012 19:29 VoO wrote:
Finally switched to Zerg. I'm so glad that Terran is a dying race as TvZ is my worst MU.
Welcome to the swarm guys, the race where the grass is always... well there is no grass around our lairs, but you know... the creep is always purpler! 
|
On April 05 2012 19:40 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 19:31 EleanorRIgby wrote:
I'm switching to zerg as well and already having more success with them Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 19:29 VoO wrote:
Finally switched to Zerg. I'm so glad that Terran is a dying race as TvZ is my worst MU. Welcome to the swarm guys, the race where the grass is always... well there is no grass around our lairs, but you know... the creep is always purpler!
Awesome, more zerg. I love PvZ!
|
On April 05 2012 18:39 dde wrote:
ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot.
Zerg storng but at least with Zerg you usually lose to people around your level or better. Im mid master and wouldn't really be surprised if I lost a game to a plat Protoss to be honest.
|
On April 05 2012 19:48 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 18:39 dde wrote:
ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot. Zerg storng but at least with Zerg you usually lose to people around your level or better. Im mid master and wouldn't really be surprised if I lost a game to a plat Protoss to be honest.
Then your TvP is just really, really bad or you're exaggerating again.
|
On April 05 2012 19:48 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 18:39 dde wrote:
ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot. Zerg storng but at least with Zerg you usually lose to people around your level or better. Im mid master and wouldn't really be surprised if I lost a game to a plat Protoss to be honest.
a plat toss would have half your upgrades or army if you macro correctly and you would stomp him into the ground. If not you should maybe play above Plat niveau. I often loose to Toss too, but never to someone two leagues down, its even not uncommon to win against higher tosses, cause its your doing if you win or loose. That Tosses dont have the micro potential (requirement) that terrans have, still makes it your fault.
|
Swittched to zerg. Screw terran, so frustrating and hard.
|
zerg is stronger atm , but harder to play then terran. if you can play zerg , you'll be winning against terrans of the same level as you.
|
dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On April 05 2012 13:40 sirpsychosexy wrote:
The reason Terrans have disappeared is it is harder to play at the low to mid levels than any other race. It is that simple. As a terran your success in the big battles, a lot of times depends on your micro. Average players aren't super good at microing, so as a result the race that has to micro the most to win a batlle, will probably win less often.
It really is that unbelivably simple, lets look at the things terran has to do versus toss to do okay in a mid-late game battle: First off terran has to make sure they have the right composition to engage the army. You have to get the proper amount of vikings and ghosts that is appropriate to their collossus, and high temp count. You don't do this, you already lost the fight. Once you engage (or before if you can), emping or sniping the High temps is a huge priority. In the event that you cannot get all the high temps, you then have to dodge storms, not only your bio, but the vikings too. In addition you should be focus firing the vikings to kill collosus 1 at a time, having them all hit different one's won't be very beneficial. Meanwhile make sure you are kiting the charglots and not letting them get a good surround, this alone is daunting for someone in the lower-mid levels. And still while kiting the zealots, try to maintain a spread from the collosses splash if they don't die immediately from the vikings.
For protoss they do have to do a few things. You should probably try to find an advantageous area to engage in (same goes for terran), and then while you are attacking throw storms on top of the army, and try not to clump up your high temps too much for the emps. And that's about it.
If the terran gets too clumped up or the zealots get in a good position, you will probably lose the fight. If you take 1 bad storm, you will probably lose the fight. It really is this simple. Asking a platinum or dimaond level player to do all these things and not take a couple bad storms is too much. Storm just absolutely decimates your army, just fucking crushes it. No player on this level will consistently be able to emp every high templar before each fight.
The ease of the things toss has to do and the difficulty of the things terran has to do is staggering. Placing a storm on the army is incredibly easy. Dodging storms, kiting zealots, and emping the temps is not easy. Even pros take huge storm damage all the time. A fricken platnium-diamond player is just going to eat them alive half the time. The consequences of a toss getting all the high temps emp'd is nowhere near the consequence of a terran taking bad storms, if you get emp'd you still have an okay chance.
Now if the battle is over and you arent completely dead, the toss can probably warp in 30-40 supply almost instantly so get ready for that. To best deal with this, you have to make sure you start producing your units during the battle as you are losing units, and hope they come out in time. Another drawback for lower level terran players is having to constantly be making production using many of your scv's and also having to add techlabs/reactors and what not. This isn't so bad for gold players and beyond, it really isn't very difficult, but for the lowest of players, it is alot more to ask then simply throwing down 10 gateways with a probe.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing.
This pretty much sums it up for me. Was stucked in high Dia due to my TvP for a long time until i switched to Sky Terran (this is way easier to pull off and often just works due to the surprise advantage).
Now in mid Master i got some trouble in TvZ with maps getting bigger and bigger leading to more Lategame fights (which are quite hard when the Z is good - Ghost nerf also made it harder).
|
On April 05 2012 20:25 dezi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 13:40 sirpsychosexy wrote:
The reason Terrans have disappeared is it is harder to play at the low to mid levels than any other race. It is that simple. As a terran your success in the big battles, a lot of times depends on your micro. Average players aren't super good at microing, so as a result the race that has to micro the most to win a batlle, will probably win less often.
It really is that unbelivably simple, lets look at the things terran has to do versus toss to do okay in a mid-late game battle: First off terran has to make sure they have the right composition to engage the army. You have to get the proper amount of vikings and ghosts that is appropriate to their collossus, and high temp count. You don't do this, you already lost the fight. Once you engage (or before if you can), emping or sniping the High temps is a huge priority. In the event that you cannot get all the high temps, you then have to dodge storms, not only your bio, but the vikings too. In addition you should be focus firing the vikings to kill collosus 1 at a time, having them all hit different one's won't be very beneficial. Meanwhile make sure you are kiting the charglots and not letting them get a good surround, this alone is daunting for someone in the lower-mid levels. And still while kiting the zealots, try to maintain a spread from the collosses splash if they don't die immediately from the vikings.
For protoss they do have to do a few things. You should probably try to find an advantageous area to engage in (same goes for terran), and then while you are attacking throw storms on top of the army, and try not to clump up your high temps too much for the emps. And that's about it.
If the terran gets too clumped up or the zealots get in a good position, you will probably lose the fight. If you take 1 bad storm, you will probably lose the fight. It really is this simple. Asking a platinum or dimaond level player to do all these things and not take a couple bad storms is too much. Storm just absolutely decimates your army, just fucking crushes it. No player on this level will consistently be able to emp every high templar before each fight.
The ease of the things toss has to do and the difficulty of the things terran has to do is staggering. Placing a storm on the army is incredibly easy. Dodging storms, kiting zealots, and emping the temps is not easy. Even pros take huge storm damage all the time. A fricken platnium-diamond player is just going to eat them alive half the time. The consequences of a toss getting all the high temps emp'd is nowhere near the consequence of a terran taking bad storms, if you get emp'd you still have an okay chance.
Now if the battle is over and you arent completely dead, the toss can probably warp in 30-40 supply almost instantly so get ready for that. To best deal with this, you have to make sure you start producing your units during the battle as you are losing units, and hope they come out in time. Another drawback for lower level terran players is having to constantly be making production using many of your scv's and also having to add techlabs/reactors and what not. This isn't so bad for gold players and beyond, it really isn't very difficult, but for the lowest of players, it is alot more to ask then simply throwing down 10 gateways with a probe.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing. This pretty much sums it up for me. Was stucked in high Dia due to my TvP for a long time until i switched to Sky Terran (this is way easier to pull off and often just works due to the surprise advantage). Now in mid Master i got some trouble in TvZ with maps getting bigger and bigger leading to more Lategame fights (which are quite hard when the Z is good - Ghost nerf also made it harder).
so what's your problem exactly?
you found a good strategy that works for you on your level - or do you assume that even with skyterran you are held back way too much?
and in TvZ you have trouble against good players... well that's why they are good isn't it?
|
On April 05 2012 19:48 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 18:39 dde wrote:
ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot. Zerg storng but at least with Zerg you usually lose to people around your level or better. Im mid master and wouldn't really be surprised if I lost a game to a plat Protoss to be honest.
Yeah, well let's continue spreading this little piece of info please. Last time it was "diamond Terrans have troubles with gold Protoss". Now mid-master Terrans lose to platinum Protoss. Couldn't agree more.
At least the trend is consistent.
Next, Korean GM Terran loses to low diamond Protoss, I'm looking forward to it. In fact, several Korean Terrans have been matched against random Protoss no namers in the IPL4 Open Bracket Round 1, wouldn't be surprised if they were promptly 2-0'd and went back to Korea to train with their local diamond buddies Genius, Oz, PartinG and MC. Gotta work on that TvP.
|
dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On April 05 2012 20:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 20:25 dezi wrote:On April 05 2012 13:40 sirpsychosexy wrote:
The reason Terrans have disappeared is it is harder to play at the low to mid levels than any other race. It is that simple. As a terran your success in the big battles, a lot of times depends on your micro. Average players aren't super good at microing, so as a result the race that has to micro the most to win a batlle, will probably win less often.
It really is that unbelivably simple, lets look at the things terran has to do versus toss to do okay in a mid-late game battle: First off terran has to make sure they have the right composition to engage the army. You have to get the proper amount of vikings and ghosts that is appropriate to their collossus, and high temp count. You don't do this, you already lost the fight. Once you engage (or before if you can), emping or sniping the High temps is a huge priority. In the event that you cannot get all the high temps, you then have to dodge storms, not only your bio, but the vikings too. In addition you should be focus firing the vikings to kill collosus 1 at a time, having them all hit different one's won't be very beneficial. Meanwhile make sure you are kiting the charglots and not letting them get a good surround, this alone is daunting for someone in the lower-mid levels. And still while kiting the zealots, try to maintain a spread from the collosses splash if they don't die immediately from the vikings.
For protoss they do have to do a few things. You should probably try to find an advantageous area to engage in (same goes for terran), and then while you are attacking throw storms on top of the army, and try not to clump up your high temps too much for the emps. And that's about it.
If the terran gets too clumped up or the zealots get in a good position, you will probably lose the fight. If you take 1 bad storm, you will probably lose the fight. It really is this simple. Asking a platinum or dimaond level player to do all these things and not take a couple bad storms is too much. Storm just absolutely decimates your army, just fucking crushes it. No player on this level will consistently be able to emp every high templar before each fight.
The ease of the things toss has to do and the difficulty of the things terran has to do is staggering. Placing a storm on the army is incredibly easy. Dodging storms, kiting zealots, and emping the temps is not easy. Even pros take huge storm damage all the time. A fricken platnium-diamond player is just going to eat them alive half the time. The consequences of a toss getting all the high temps emp'd is nowhere near the consequence of a terran taking bad storms, if you get emp'd you still have an okay chance.
Now if the battle is over and you arent completely dead, the toss can probably warp in 30-40 supply almost instantly so get ready for that. To best deal with this, you have to make sure you start producing your units during the battle as you are losing units, and hope they come out in time. Another drawback for lower level terran players is having to constantly be making production using many of your scv's and also having to add techlabs/reactors and what not. This isn't so bad for gold players and beyond, it really isn't very difficult, but for the lowest of players, it is alot more to ask then simply throwing down 10 gateways with a probe.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing. This pretty much sums it up for me. Was stucked in high Dia due to my TvP for a long time until i switched to Sky Terran (this is way easier to pull off and often just works due to the surprise advantage). Now in mid Master i got some trouble in TvZ with maps getting bigger and bigger leading to more Lategame fights (which are quite hard when the Z is good - Ghost nerf also made it harder). so what's your problem exactly? you found a good strategy that works for you on your level - or do you assume that even with skyterran you are held back way too much? and in TvZ you have trouble against good players... well that's why they are good isn't it?
That's what i like about TL. You write down sth. and people make sth. completly different out of it. What i just was saying is that i know i don't have the APM to pull of all the stuff described at once to do well in TvP lategame. I personally just feel like it's more micro intensive to play bio in a lategame vs a P than it's for a P to play vs the T. I cannot pull this off but luckly there're some other strats i can you that work well at least for me, that aren't that micro intensive and that allow me to actually keep up with the P i consider to be on my level of play.
In top Dia Z often just struggeled vs 2 Rax, light Hellion pressure into 3/4 Tank contain. With the nerfs to Rax buildtime and the maps getting bigger i need to adapt a bit more because it's quite hard to really punish a Z for going Hatch first now (again: at my level of play (read: Multitasking)). My real problem in TvZ is the lategame - for me it's a bit to hard (on those more open maps) to survive vs the endgame composition of a Z with BLs, Corrupters, Infestors and especially the switch after (i think it's harder for Ts at my level to play on those bigger, more open maps vs Z - read: engagements).
|
On April 05 2012 20:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 19:48 SupLilSon wrote:On April 05 2012 18:39 dde wrote:
ive always thought the reason why terrans are disappearing is because of zergs being too strong atm. Everyone here seem to hate or frustrated with tvp a looooooooooooot. Zerg storng but at least with Zerg you usually lose to people around your level or better. Im mid master and wouldn't really be surprised if I lost a game to a plat Protoss to be honest. Yeah, well let's continue spreading this little piece of info please. Last time it was "diamond Terrans have troubles with gold Protoss". Now mid-master Terrans lose to platinum Protoss. Couldn't agree more. At least the trend is consistent. Next, Korean GM Terran loses to low diamond Protoss, I'm looking forward to it. In fact, several Korean Terrans have been matched against random Protoss no namers in the IPL4 Open Bracket Round 1, wouldn't be surprised if they were promptly 2-0'd and went back to Korea to train with their local diamond buddies Genius, Oz, PartinG and MC. Gotta work on that TvP.
made me lol 
Keeping this thread was not so bad at all - with all the funny stories people have to get off their chests, and terrans generally succumbing to a whiny attitude here and on the ladder. Keep it up guys 
|
This is how most of my TvPs look like, watch this replay if you want to see a 2 base turtling protoss beat a terran whos constantly ahead on eco, earlier third base and 4th earlier than toss has his third. (low masters lvl)
http://replayfu.com/download/NgRR5f
Yea I made some mistakes but still, I'm harassing constantly trading evenly and killing probes while he is turtling on 2 base often floating 1k+ minerals and then decides to pretty much a move into me when he's done turtling and has his upgrades.
I'm not saying this is imbalanced but I do personally believe it is, can anyone link me a replay of a 2 base terran doing this to a protoss?
Anyone else thinks its ridiculous gateways cost less than barracks yet fewer gateways can outproduce alot more rax?
|
On April 05 2012 20:59 dezi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 20:37 Big J wrote:On April 05 2012 20:25 dezi wrote:On April 05 2012 13:40 sirpsychosexy wrote:
The reason Terrans have disappeared is it is harder to play at the low to mid levels than any other race. It is that simple. As a terran your success in the big battles, a lot of times depends on your micro. Average players aren't super good at microing, so as a result the race that has to micro the most to win a batlle, will probably win less often.
It really is that unbelivably simple, lets look at the things terran has to do versus toss to do okay in a mid-late game battle: First off terran has to make sure they have the right composition to engage the army. You have to get the proper amount of vikings and ghosts that is appropriate to their collossus, and high temp count. You don't do this, you already lost the fight. Once you engage (or before if you can), emping or sniping the High temps is a huge priority. In the event that you cannot get all the high temps, you then have to dodge storms, not only your bio, but the vikings too. In addition you should be focus firing the vikings to kill collosus 1 at a time, having them all hit different one's won't be very beneficial. Meanwhile make sure you are kiting the charglots and not letting them get a good surround, this alone is daunting for someone in the lower-mid levels. And still while kiting the zealots, try to maintain a spread from the collosses splash if they don't die immediately from the vikings.
For protoss they do have to do a few things. You should probably try to find an advantageous area to engage in (same goes for terran), and then while you are attacking throw storms on top of the army, and try not to clump up your high temps too much for the emps. And that's about it.
If the terran gets too clumped up or the zealots get in a good position, you will probably lose the fight. If you take 1 bad storm, you will probably lose the fight. It really is this simple. Asking a platinum or dimaond level player to do all these things and not take a couple bad storms is too much. Storm just absolutely decimates your army, just fucking crushes it. No player on this level will consistently be able to emp every high templar before each fight.
The ease of the things toss has to do and the difficulty of the things terran has to do is staggering. Placing a storm on the army is incredibly easy. Dodging storms, kiting zealots, and emping the temps is not easy. Even pros take huge storm damage all the time. A fricken platnium-diamond player is just going to eat them alive half the time. The consequences of a toss getting all the high temps emp'd is nowhere near the consequence of a terran taking bad storms, if you get emp'd you still have an okay chance.
Now if the battle is over and you arent completely dead, the toss can probably warp in 30-40 supply almost instantly so get ready for that. To best deal with this, you have to make sure you start producing your units during the battle as you are losing units, and hope they come out in time. Another drawback for lower level terran players is having to constantly be making production using many of your scv's and also having to add techlabs/reactors and what not. This isn't so bad for gold players and beyond, it really isn't very difficult, but for the lowest of players, it is alot more to ask then simply throwing down 10 gateways with a probe.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing. This pretty much sums it up for me. Was stucked in high Dia due to my TvP for a long time until i switched to Sky Terran (this is way easier to pull off and often just works due to the surprise advantage). Now in mid Master i got some trouble in TvZ with maps getting bigger and bigger leading to more Lategame fights (which are quite hard when the Z is good - Ghost nerf also made it harder). so what's your problem exactly? you found a good strategy that works for you on your level - or do you assume that even with skyterran you are held back way too much? and in TvZ you have trouble against good players... well that's why they are good isn't it? That's what i like about TL. You write down sth. and people make sth. completly different out of it. What i just was saying is that i know i don't have the APM to pull of all the stuff described at once to do well in TvP lategame. I personally just feel like it's more micro intensive to play bio in a lategame vs a P than it's for a P to play vs the T. I cannot pull this off but luckly there're some other strats i can you that work well at least for me, that aren't that micro intensive and that allow me to actually keep up with the P i consider to be on my level of play. In top Dia Z often just struggeled vs 2 Rax, light Hellion pressure into 3/4 Tank contain. With the nerfs to Rax buildtime and the maps getting bigger i need to adapt a bit more because it's quite hard to really punish a Z for going Hatch first now (again: at my level of play (read: Multitasking)). My real problem in TvZ is the lategame - for me it's a bit to hard (on those more open maps) to survive vs the endgame composition of a Z with BLs, Corrupters, Infestors and especially the switch after (i think it's harder for Ts at my level to play on those bigger, more open maps vs Z - read: engagements).
The post you quoted gave a list why the writer thinks Terran is harder on certain levels and does so by explicitly describing problems Terran faces vs Protoss.
You say "This pretty much sums it up for me." and in the next sentence you write that you don't even play that style he describes. So I'm a bit confused how you can say this sums it up for you, if you don't have those problems to begin with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
