If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this.
Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation.
Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!
Ghosts can
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
On April 05 2012 04:42 karpo wrote: Watching his TvP replay as someone who doesn't really play anymore i can spot a bunch of stuff that's been mentioned by Naruto time and time again. Yet EmilA just doesn't want to admit it and even says he is better than his opponent in the end of the TvP. With that kind of mindset i'm not suprised that it's frustrating to play.
The protoss had about equal Blizzard APM in the engagements so that whole argument flies out the window, at least for that specific opponent.
Blizz APM is meaningless. It essentially counts how many times you click your mouse button. You'll realize that spamming your move commands shoots your APM way up. If you want an accurate measure of APM you need to check through SC2gears.
Ok so the APM part is debatable. Maybe the terran was clicking with precision while the protoss spammed, maybe it was the other way around, or maybe they were quite even. That replay still shows that the P played well and the T didn't play close to the "perfect game" many claim to do. The protoss knew exactly where the T army was and when it was moving out, all through the game.
Just judging EmilA's play on that replay there's lots of stuff to improve upon before crying about being the better player or race balance.
Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation.
Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!
Ghosts can
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
You realize that the exact same has been done in this thread when people post replays/point to games where terrans win or do well? It's not a one way street where protoss are defending their honor, there's alot of terrans with a false sense of worth.
And players losing from a superior position happen to all races and players of all races claim "zerg imba", "terran imba", or "toss imba". There's little worth in pointing that out.
If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this.
Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation.
Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!
Ghosts can
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Out of curiosity, could you please post five of your own games where you just decide to do the old "2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that" strategy in PvT?
As a Protoss player, I would like to copy your build orders, as I don't find the PvT match-up that straightforward.
Same, I need these build orders that allow me to get up to 2/2 uncontested and then can A-move across the map. They sound really effective.
As for anyone who has played Protoss, myself included, this is called standard play.
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
Whoa, DeMuslim losing to Deezer, the known stream cheater who also blind cannons pros bases and stalks Destiny across several accounts? Are you sure you want to use him as an example of why protoss is super powerful? Are you sure that cheating isn't super effective?
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
You realize that the exact same has been done in this thread when people post replays/point to games where terrans win or do well? It's not a one way street where protoss are defending their honor, there's alot of terrans with a false sense of worth.
And players losing from a superior position happen to all races and players of all races claim "zerg imba", "terran imba", or "toss imba". There's little worth in pointing that out.
So by your reasoning this game is balanced and every race takes the same amount of skill to be successful at?
Superior position, when did I mention that... to be honest on stream the specific game i remember against Deezer, DeMuslim had the positioning and was also ahead in all other aspects. I remember clearly because DeMuslim then went ahead to analyze the replay to see what he could have done....I don't remember if he came up with anything, and it wasn't some slip in his normal macro/micro gameplay either. Positioning is important ya, but there are just some engagements where you are even with toss and still get rolled over by their army. It just happens, maybe its upgrades, maybe not enough vikings/ghosts I dunno, but its like if Terran plays standard we lose, if toss plays standard they are on the road the winning.
Again if all the protoss just wants us to 2 rax all-in or 1/1/1 all day thats fine, but sometimes we want to play macro too, which once you make that decision you are already at a disadvantage.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
Whoa, DeMuslim losing to Deezer, the known stream cheater who also blind cannons pros bases and stalks Destiny across several accounts? Are you sure you want to use him as an example of why protoss is super powerful? Are you sure that cheating isn't super effective?
If you watch his stream, you would know that when he plays Deezer he turns the view of his stream just to his webcam...
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
You realize that the exact same has been done in this thread when people post replays/point to games where terrans win or do well? It's not a one way street where protoss are defending their honor, there's alot of terrans with a false sense of worth.
And players losing from a superior position happen to all races and players of all races claim "zerg imba", "terran imba", or "toss imba". There's little worth in pointing that out.
So by your reasoning this game is balanced and every race takes the same amount of skill to be successful at?
Superior position, when did I mention that... to be honest on stream the specific game i remember against Deezer, DeMuslim had the positioning and was also ahead in all other aspects. I remember clearly because DeMuslim then went ahead to analyze the replay to see what he could have done....I don't remember if he came up with anything, and it wasn't some slip in his normal macro/micro gameplay either. Positioning is important ya, but there are just some engagements where you are even with toss and still get rolled over by their army. It just happens, maybe its upgrades, maybe not enough vikings/ghosts I dunno, but its like if Terran plays standard we lose, if toss plays standard they are on the road the winning.
Again if all the protoss just wants us to 2 rax all-in or 1/1/1 all day thats fine, but sometimes we want to play macro too, which once you make that decision you are already at a disadvantage.
I have never seen this 2 rax all in you speak of. Maybe a three rax all in. But it is clear you need to find yourself a good protoss practice partner, grind it out and figure out how you get get the advantage your looking for. Maybe that should be the next stage this thread moves too, rather than both sides trying to prove everything though vague examples..
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Except that it doesn't work that way at all, terran can hold out quite well with a good defensive position and good micro, how do you think high level terrans win against toss in korea? Having a 2 upgrade lead is not an automatic win for toss, but having a 4 upgrade lead probably is.
You deal with double forge by going double engineering bay and playing carefully so that toss can't exploit it.
How do all the Terrans deal with it in korea? Well, either they don't, or they are MKP or have MKP like micro, which I will admit makes it possible to hold off protoss when down in upgrades. Otherwise, don't even bother. I remember a couple games I played recently where I was down like 1/1 from 2/2, I positioned myself in a bottleneck vs basically a pure zealot army and got crushed, it wasn't even close. IMO if you are losing while ahead in upgrades as P your unit composition is wayyyyy off.
Edit: You don't need a build order, and you stay uncontested but that shoudnt be an issue. Most TVP wins come from the midgame where they do a predictable drop in main poke in front. Once you learn to split your units up its pretty easy to stop, and from their your free to chrono 2/2.
Finally, look, its all handy dandy arguing over this point, but the issue remains that you can be ahead in upgrades even if the terran upgrades perfectly alongside you, and there is nothing he can do about it. This is an issue and needs to be addressed, and I would love to hear an argument about why it shouldn't
I am telling you, we need these replays. We are playing the way you are describing and need to update our play style. I have never been able to get up to 2/2 with charge to a-move and win the game. I am clearly playing wrong.
Just look at any masters kr + rep, once you get 2/2 and storm you're pretty much good to unless your opponent has extremely strong mechanics.
AKA: Win timing
But in all honesty posting replays won't do much, everyone will analyze it find something very small and try to make it the whole reasoning that the Terran player lost and then this thread will go on for 200 more pages on that one small thing. However maybe if we can find numerous pro replays of this happening, the number of small things the protoss players who have come to the defend their pride can dwell on will be very small or nonexistent. For example I have seen a couple DeMuslim vs Deezer games on Demuslims streams where he goes back and analyzes the replay which clearly shows him ahead yet losing to Deezer. (while this rarely happened, cause he is not on DeMuslims level) when it did happen DeMuslim was clearly ahead. Watching Dragons stream also I have seen him lose games that clearly in the replay he is ahead, followed by "Toss IMBA"... but these are a few examples I have seen in my own eyes. If high level players have trouble, its natural that lower leagues will have the same problems, only multiplied.
You realize that the exact same has been done in this thread when people post replays/point to games where terrans win or do well? It's not a one way street where protoss are defending their honor, there's alot of terrans with a false sense of worth.
And players losing from a superior position happen to all races and players of all races claim "zerg imba", "terran imba", or "toss imba". There's little worth in pointing that out.
So by your reasoning this game is balanced and every race takes the same amount of skill to be successful at?
Superior position, when did I mention that... to be honest on stream the specific game i remember against Deezer, DeMuslim had the positioning and was also ahead in all other aspects. I remember clearly because DeMuslim then went ahead to analyze the replay to see what he could have done....I don't remember if he came up with anything, and it wasn't some slip in his normal macro/micro gameplay either. Positioning is important ya, but there are just some engagements where you are even with toss and still get rolled over by their army. It just happens, maybe its upgrades, maybe not enough vikings/ghosts I dunno, but its like if Terran plays standard we lose, if toss plays standard they are on the road the winning.
Again if all the protoss just wants us to 2 rax all-in or 1/1/1 all day thats fine, but sometimes we want to play macro too, which once you make that decision you are already at a disadvantage.
I have never seen this 2 rax all in you speak of. Maybe a three rax all in. But it is clear you need to find yourself a good protoss practice partner, grind it out and figure out how you get get the advantage your looking for. Maybe that should be the next stage this thread moves too, rather than both sides trying to prove everything though vague examples..
This was the case half a century ago (thread time). There are useful builds here, there are practice partnerships formed. Perhaps it will help... But only for the few in this thread. Remember, there was a long spell when people were actually trying to pinpoint what's going on on the ladder. Z dominance, P in the very top is what the numbers tell us. They also tell us that the race populations shifted a lot in the middle of 2011. And no-one can say why.
Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation.
Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!
Ghosts can
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Out of curiosity, could you please post five of your own games where you just decide to do the old "2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that" strategy in PvT?
As a Protoss player, I would like to copy your build orders, as I don't find the PvT match-up that straightforward.
Same, I need these build orders that allow me to get up to 2/2 uncontested and then can A-move across the map. They sound really effective.
As for anyone who has played Protoss, myself included, this is called standard play.
You said it better than I ever could. But seriously, the onus is on the terran to make something happen before you chrono out 2/2, its your job to just stay alive. Theirs too many protoss who feel the need for some reason to punish the terran for 1 rax expanding or whatever, or just play aggressive in general its not necessary.
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
Out of curiosity, could you please post five of your own games where you just decide to do the old "2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that" strategy in PvT?
As a Protoss player, I would like to copy your build orders, as I don't find the PvT match-up that straightforward.
Same, I need these build orders that allow me to get up to 2/2 uncontested and then can A-move across the map. They sound really effective.
As for anyone who has played Protoss, myself included, this is called standard play.
You said it better than I ever could. But seriously, the onus is on the terran to make something happen before you chrono out 2/2, its your job to just stay alive. Theirs too many protoss who feel the need for some reason to punish the terran for 1 rax expanding or whatever, or just play aggressive in general its not necessary.
So I take it that you will never post replays of these games where:
If the unit control is easier, shouldn't you have moved up by playing P? Or was something else about protoss harder? Opinions, when unsupported by fact (or in this case, contrary to a lot of evidence showing that at the current state of the game, T is having more success than P). Also, for those of you talking about great players vs. good players vs. mediocre players should remember that play which is "great" today is "good" a few months from now and "mediocre" a year from now. Look at some real old replays of pros - sure they're still playing fast, but look at what they're doing with their APM - is it really even that useful by today's standards? I mean, people used to think P was the hardest race because they had to hit FFs just right (Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about a long time ago, not all that far from release). Today, the FF isn't really considered "micro" anymore - it's just something you should just always be capable of doing, and by and large even bad players are doing this.
Like I said I played P as off race, and P games probably encompassed maybe 15-20% of my games at the time. Honestly, I think I would have moved up if I switched completely as I was having a better win rate over all than my T. At that time I was struggling with macro vs P/Z(keeping up you can say)...where as I didn't have as many macro issues with P when I played it, because I feel its a bit more forgiving. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Terran has a unit that can change the tide of a game like infestor/BL or colossus/HT, and no not marines/mules.... and its those late game TvPs when you can have a slight to big advantage but get raped by major AoE where most Terrans are clueless on what they can do in that situation.
Still everyone is bringing up suggestions for early game strategies, but really what are terran options late game please someone enlighten me!
Ghosts can
Ghosts are nothing in comparison to HTs. I don't think a protoss has experienced winning a battle with a considerable supply lead then walking up a ramp to do some actual damage and lose 30 food to the one high templar stationed there and then losing everything to the chargelot reinforcements. Ghosts are a valuable asset to the T composition, but protoss doesn't outright die if he doesn't prepare for the three ghosts. If you're too late to react to the 2x robo collosus transition then you're outright dead, as they'll each take down 8x their cost if you don't overkill them with mass vikings.
Terrans need to stop comparing ghosts to High Templar, they serve different functions and are different units.
The terran bio ball is superior to the gateway army. Stim M/M/M melts protoss armies with ease. So protoss gets high templar so they can have sufficient dps to actually kill units through medivacs. Terran gets the ghost not to kill protoss armies but to prevent storm, because without storm they are already in a superior position.
More or less works like this:
Bio > Gateway armies, so toss adds tech. Terran then adds tech to counter the tech, to force it back to just Bio vs. Gateway, where Terran has a huge advantage. Toss tries to mix tech and switch tech back and forth and out control Terran so that their tech isn't invalidated. Terran tries to actively defeat Toss tech through their specific unit counters (vikings kill colossi, ghosts beat high templar). If terran is successful in his goal, he wins because Bio steamrolls gateway armies. If terran is unsuccessful, the tech of Protoss which is designed to kill bio does its thing.
The entire purpose of the ghost is to nullify enemy tech. The entire purpose of the high templar is to do massive damage. Stop comparing the two.
I wouldn't say that bio melts Protoss army, I would say that with stim there is a slight advantage. But now here's the thing, protoss can be 3/3 very fast, throw in a couple colossus in there and a good number of chargelots and what can the terran do? Have you seen how long it takes a bio ball to kill 1 3/3 chargelot??...they are just fodder anyway but still are way more useful than they should be if bio really did melt gateway armies. Do you think 4 medivacs can keep a bio army alive vs a protoss composition? Because 4 is about how many you will get out before you have to start building vikings...oh we should drop more? well there you go 1-2 less medivacs in our composition.
Now the whole ghost thing...ya they are vital in TvP and ya EMP reduces the toss army efficiency but... but really after EMP and snipe(if you can get in range of HTs) what is there.... they do decent damage but would you mass them like infestor/BL or colossus, probably not... why would we get cloak when any good protoss would have a obs with them and keep it alive. While we are investing in something that we HOPE will keep us alive, the opponent is beefing up their ball of death. We have 2 units that have no use situationally, vikings after the colossus are dead and ghosts after emp and snipes....oh and after we emp HTs they just turn into another useful unit which is very hard to kill with no EMPs(and ofcourse you just used your energy to EMP the HTs).
I mean you can use melts, steamrolled to make it seem like terran has an advantage but I'm not seeing your logic. I can agree early game there may be a slight advantage to Terran, but then again only if they are doing something gimmicky or all-inish.
So sad.
Do you know the counter to double forge? It's double engineering bay. Yeah. Terrans who fall way behind in upgrades deserve to lose, and it's perfectly reasonable to see a terran hold out with a 2 upgrade deficit until they catch up.
And yes, properly controlled bio with stim/combat shields/concussive annihilates gateway armies.
Are you joking? If your behind in upgrades TVP you just lose every fight terribly, flat out. MAYBE if you have like 6 medivacs in the early game, but once charge is upgraded and your behind your toast. And the whole problem is that double eng bay DOESNT keep you even with double forge, your still behind because of chrono. If your 2/2 as protoss with charge you can just walk across the map and win, simple as that.
I just wanted to make sure, since I don't really believe that is how those games went. I am sure that is how you remember them, but you did not lose because the protoss a-moved over you.
Don't worry guys. I heard Blizzard was taking Terran out of the game in HOTS. It just isn't viable anymore. I guess all our whining has really paid off.
1-2 of those storms go off and that bio ball is wrecked.
Just a small sample of the shit T has to pull off. And this is without collsi where youd have to be focus firing the collsi down while dodging all of the storms, while trying to get emps off.
The reason Terrans have disappeared is it is harder to play at the low to mid levels than any other race. It is that simple. As a terran your success in the big battles, a lot of times depends on your micro. Average players aren't super good at microing, so as a result the race that has to micro the most to win a batlle, will probably win less often.
It really is that unbelivably simple, lets look at the things terran has to do versus toss to do okay in a mid-late game battle: First off terran has to make sure they have the right composition to engage the army. You have to get the proper amount of vikings and ghosts that is appropriate to their collossus, and high temp count. You don't do this, you already lost the fight. Once you engage (or before if you can), emping or sniping the High temps is a huge priority. In the event that you cannot get all the high temps, you then have to dodge storms, not only your bio, but the vikings too. In addition you should be focus firing the vikings to kill collosus 1 at a time, having them all hit different one's won't be very beneficial. Meanwhile make sure you are kiting the charglots and not letting them get a good surround, this alone is daunting for someone in the lower-mid levels. And still while kiting the zealots, try to maintain a spread from the collosses splash if they don't die immediately from the vikings.
For protoss they do have to do a few things. You should probably try to find an advantageous area to engage in (same goes for terran), and then while you are attacking throw storms on top of the army, and try not to clump up your high temps too much for the emps. And that's about it.
If the terran gets too clumped up or the zealots get in a good position, you will probably lose the fight. If you take 1 bad storm, you will probably lose the fight. It really is this simple. Asking a platinum or dimaond level player to do all these things and not take a couple bad storms is too much. Storm just absolutely decimates your army, just fucking crushes it. No player on this level will consistently be able to emp every high templar before each fight.
The ease of the things toss has to do and the difficulty of the things terran has to do is staggering. Placing a storm on the army is incredibly easy. Dodging storms, kiting zealots, and emping the temps is not easy. Even pros take huge storm damage all the time. A fricken platnium-diamond player is just going to eat them alive half the time. The consequences of a toss getting all the high temps emp'd is nowhere near the consequence of a terran taking bad storms, if you get emp'd you still have an okay chance.
Now if the battle is over and you arent completely dead, the toss can probably warp in 30-40 supply almost instantly so get ready for that. To best deal with this, you have to make sure you start producing your units during the battle as you are losing units, and hope they come out in time. Another drawback for lower level terran players is having to constantly be making production using many of your scv's and also having to add techlabs/reactors and what not. This isn't so bad for gold players and beyond, it really isn't very difficult, but for the lowest of players, it is alot more to ask then simply throwing down 10 gateways with a probe.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing.
I play zerg so I won't comment on tvp. However, I want you to know as a zerg, mass ghosts were so stupidly OP before the nerf. Terran already counter the majority of zerg, save zerg T3, with marines, medivacs, and tanks. Ghosts just nullified zerg t3 so we had no late game options at all (downtech?).
I do agree with your assessment of ease of battle performance with regards to protoss vs terran. I'm not going to pretend that zvp battles are micro intensive for Z, but when we A move our army melts and hopefully we dented the death ball. I feel that once protoss hits 3 bases, their endgame is just unstoppable. By unstoppable, I mean that the amount of effort it takes to a-move a protoss death ball is exponentially less than the effort it takes to defeat a protoss death ball.
Honestly, after hundreds of games, I cannot remember the last time I beat a protoss deathball as zerg. That's not saying I do not win zvp; I just cannot kill their units off. I usually win zvp early/mid by surviving a timing or denying P's third. I usually lose if P gets a third unmolested. In zvp masters, the game often revolves around the third base and who can deny whose. This is why strats like +1 zealot timings and 12m roach maxes are getting popular; they deny the zerg's/protoss' third base respectively.
Also, I should note that 3 base protoss beats any# base zerg in an even game. IMO that is just not right. Who knew, maybe protoss 3 base is truly OP and we never knew until this phase of the metagame where it all revolves around 3 base play.
i hate zvt so thats not a problem for me. Jk , i think they nerfed them because korean terrans can do a lot of crap with a few marines, the race is not op , players are.
TvZ isn't quite as bad as TvP, I personally think it is almost balanced, but I will write a few things that make it difficult for your average terran. As a terran you do have to be able to split against banelings and what not, which can be a big turnoff for players looking into terran. And as a similair situation with storm you have to emp or snipe the infestors and spread from the fungals. And once the broodlords are out, your only real option is mass vikings, you can try marines, but again it is alot to ask for a platinum or diamond player to get under the broodlords without getting owned by fungals. And if you do get the vikings out and he doesnt crush you because you weren't prepared, the zerg can tech switch to ultras and make half your army useless. I think the matchup was well balanced before the ghost nerf.
And in both these matchups you again have the scenario where zerg and toss can resupply super fast and tech switch very fast as well, while terran cannot. This alone drives away people who want to play terran.
These are my feelings on why people are driven away from terran. The top tier players have great success with Terran because they can do all these things, they can split, emp, kite, spread, keep up with production, etc, the skill cap is higher, the best most skilled player, would probably do best with terran, but for players with low apm who are just average, races like protoss would be so much more appealing, and that is what we are seeing.
I play zerg so I won't comment on tvp. However, I want you to know as a zerg, mass ghosts were so stupidly OP before the nerf. Terran already counter the majority of zerg, save zerg T3, with marines, medivacs, and tanks. Ghosts just nullified zerg t3 so we had no late game options at all (downtech?).
I do agree with your assessment of ease of battle performance with regards to protoss vs terran. I'm not going to pretend that zvp battles are micro intensive for Z, but when we A move our army melts and hopefully we dented the death ball. I feel that once protoss hits 3 bases, their endgame is just unstoppable. By unstoppable, I mean that the amount of effort it takes to a-move a protoss death ball is exponentially less than the effort it takes to defeat a protoss death ball.
Honestly, after hundreds of games, I cannot remember the last time I beat a protoss deathball as zerg. That's not saying I do not win zvp; I just cannot kill their units off. I usually win zvp early/mid by surviving a timing or denying P's third. I usually lose if P gets a third unmolested. In zvp masters, the game often revolves around the third base and who can deny whose. This is why strats like +1 zealot timings and 12m roach maxes are getting popular; they deny the zerg's/protoss' third base respectively.
Also, I should note that 3 base protoss beats any# base zerg in an even game. IMO that is just not right. Who knew, maybe protoss 3 base is truly OP and we never knew until this phase of the metagame where it all revolves around 3 base play.
The ghost nerf was truly necessary as a Terran player speaking. I just hate how it was done, should've been -damage against massive.
1-2 of those storms go off and that bio ball is wrecked.
Just a small sample of the shit T has to pull off. And this is without collsi where youd have to be focus firing the collsi down while dodging all of the storms, while trying to get emps off.
What do you expect? It's bio~ the units are have low HP + with stimming yeah you're supposed to get fucked by AoE. It's retarded and I really don't like the units Terran have to use to play against P because mech isn't played enough / or maybe it isn't viable. This should all change within the next expansion but until then I don't expect anything to change. Holy hell this thread has a lot of pages lol.
EPT
